The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

SkyWriting · Oct 1, 2016

Major1 said:
Interesting thoughts. However, I promise you that if your hand was placed over an open fire, the only thing that you will be focused on is YOUR physical pain.

I could keep reading a dictionary under such circumstances.
It's a genetic thing. My father has entered burning buildings
while fire firefighters watched. In my experience, all pain is
endurable until the nerves no longer function from damage.
I've reached the point of passing out a couple times.

Putting aside my personal tolerance of pain, my point was that
mental anguish is far more painful.

Der Alte · Oct 1, 2016

SkyWriting said:
So there is light and dark on the lake of fire?
It's hard to imagine a dark lake of fire.
I was trying to find the lake of fire as well below:
The New Jerusalem
…22But I saw no temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23And the city has no need for sun or moon to shine on it, because the glory of God illuminates the city, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.
Where is the "dark"?

Is the LoF in the New Jerusalem? I wonder if God could make fire that did not emit light? I once read that nothing is impossible to God.

Der Alte · Oct 1, 2016

SkyWriting said:
I could keep reading a dictionary under such circumstances.
It's a genetic thing. My father has entered burning buildings
while fire firefighters watched. In my experience, all pain is
endurable until the nerves no longer function from damage.
I've reached the point of passing out a couple times.
Putting aside my personal tolerance of pain, my point was that
mental anguish is far more painful.

I suppose we could rewrite Luke 16:24 and make it say what we want it to. If what you say is true I wonder why the rich man did not say, "My soul/spirit is tormented in me because of my sins" or something similar. And if the rich man was experiencing mental torment why did he ask for Lazarus to cool his tongue with water?

Psalms 6:3 My soul is also sore vexed: but thou, O LORD, how long?
Psalms 88:3 For my soul is full of troubles: and my life draweth nigh unto the grave.
Job 7:11 Therefore I will not refrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.
Psalms 143:4 Therefore is my spirit overwhelmed within me; my heart within me is desolate.
Daniel 7:15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.

Major1 · Oct 1, 2016

SkyWriting said:
I could keep reading a dictionary under such circumstances.
It's a genetic thing. My father has entered burning buildings
while fire firefighters watched. In my experience, all pain is
endurable until the nerves no longer function from damage.
I've reached the point of passing out a couple times.

Putting aside my personal tolerance of pain, my point was that
mental anguish is far more painful.

That is what I understood you to say. What I am saying is that you can be mentally challenged all day long and not give in.
But the moment your hand touches a hot skillet, you will immediately jerk your hand away.

Major1 · Oct 1, 2016

razzelflabben said:
the real problem as I see it, is that the non eternal torment crowd removes God's nature. In fact, the only way to keep God's nature in tact as I can see it is to understand eternal torment as scripture tells us about it.

Exactly correct!!!

Not only that but when they say that there is NO eternal torment, they are saying they know more than God has already stated as truth.

Major1 · Oct 1, 2016

Der Alter said:
I suppose we could rewrite Luke 16:24 and make it say what we want it to. If what you say is true I wonder why the rich man did not say, "My soul/spirit is tormented in me because of my sins" or something similar. And if the rich man was experiencing mental torment why did he ask for Lazarus to cool his tongue with water?

Psalms 6:3 My soul is also sore vexed: but thou, O LORD, how long?
Psalms 88:3 For my soul is full of troubles: and my life draweth nigh unto the grave.
Job 7:11 Therefore I will not refrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.
Psalms 143:4 Therefore is my spirit overwhelmed within me; my heart within me is desolate.
Daniel 7:15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.

Agreed!

IT is actually sad to me that so many people willfully seek to change the clear Word of God to meet their wants.

Major1 · Oct 1, 2016

SkyWriting said:
So there is light and dark on the lake of fire?
It's hard to imagine a dark lake of fire.
I was trying to find the lake of fire as well below:

The New Jerusalem
…22But I saw no temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23And the city has no need for sun or moon to shine on it, because the glory of God illuminates the city, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.

Where is the "dark"?

I am missing something here. The New Jerusalem is the place where God lives.

The lake of fire is where Satan will live.

Why does it matter if there is darkness or not.

The thought of everlasting suffering for our loved ones who refused Christ is repulsive to many people. I understand that completely. However, the Word of God is the Word of God no matter if we like it or not. No doubt this aversion lies at the bottom of much of the unbelief to what the Bible teaches about hell.

Hell, despite the denials of many, is real. Sin demands it. Sin is a violation of the law of God in 1 John 3:4. If there were no punishment for sin, then there could be no law for law without penalty is null and void. If there is no law, there would be no sin. That would make the death of Jesus useless because if there is no sin there is no responsibility to save anyone from it. THINK about that for a moment my brother.

The reality of life after death also demands the reality of hell. Jesus taught, in Matt. 22:23-33 that there was life after physical death. In the account of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31, two distinct destinies are presented: comfort for the righteous but punishment for the wicked.

Was Jesus Christ lieing when He told us the truth in Luke 16????? THINK about that for a moment.

Again, it is not we can think of or imagine but what does God say????

Jude 13 says that Hell is a place of darkness......"the blackness of darkness" to which false teachers will be confined forever. God is light according to 1 John 1:5 and the Father of lights in James 1:17 . Hell is described as darkness because it is the place farthest removed from God. There will be no God to listen to pleas for mercy or give hope of release.

razzelflabben · Oct 1, 2016

SkyWriting said:
So there is light and dark on the lake of fire?
It's hard to imagine a dark lake of fire.
I was trying to find the lake of fire as well below:

The New Jerusalem
…22But I saw no temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23And the city has no need for sun or moon to shine on it, because the glory of God illuminates the city, and the Lamb is its lamp. 24By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.

Where is the "dark"?

wait, I'm confused, you are trying to argue that hell is light and dark because of a scripture that says that heaven is light???? how does that work?

Major1 · Oct 1, 2016

razzelflabben said:
wait, I'm confused, you are trying to argue that hell is light and dark because of a scripture that says that heaven is light???? how does that work?

That is what I thought was being said as well. That alone says a lot does it not?

Achilles6129 · Oct 1, 2016

I don't understand what the seeming contradiction between fire and darkness is. Don't we light fires when it's dark out? It's quite easy to see that the darkness surrounds the fire; they're not contradictory statements.

razzelflabben · Oct 1, 2016

Achilles6129 said:
I don't understand what the seeming contradiction between fire and darkness is. Don't we light fires when it's dark out? It's quite easy to see that the darkness surrounds the fire; they're not contradictory statements.

as already established, God's fire isn't always like we think of when we say fire, but that is a totally different issue right now to the idea that hell is light and dark because of a passage that talks about heaven being light...

Achilles6129 · Oct 1, 2016

razzelflabben said:
as already established, God's fire isn't always like we think of when we say fire, but that is a totally different issue right now to the idea that hell is light and dark because of a passage that talks about heaven being light...

That could be one possible explanation, but I still don't see what the contradiction between our understanding of earthly fire and darkness would be. As a matter of fact I think they're quite complementary.

razzelflabben · Oct 1, 2016

Achilles6129 said:
That could be one possible explanation, but I still don't see what the contradiction between our understanding of earthly fire and darkness would be. As a matter of fact I think they're quite complementary.

well, what I am currently thinking is that since God is light and He will not be there, there wouldn't be any light...which might be part of the torment as I talked about a long time ago. I don't think that is something we can know from scripture other than to know that it won't have the "light" and remember, heaven doesn't need sun or moon etc. because God is the light.

Achilles6129 · Oct 1, 2016

razzelflabben said:
well, what I am currently thinking is that since God is light and He will not be there, there wouldn't be any light...which might be part of the torment as I talked about a long time ago. I don't think that is something we can know from scripture other than to know that it won't have the "light" and remember, heaven doesn't need sun or moon etc. because God is the light.

God is everywhere. You also have the following passage to deal with:

"10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed [f]in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and [g]brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb." Rev. 14:10 (NASB)

And also:

"Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8 If I ascend to heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in [f]Sheol, behold, You are there.
9 If I take the wings of the dawn,
If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea,
10 Even there Your hand will lead me,
And Your right hand will lay hold of me.
11 If I say, “Surely the darkness will [g]overwhelm me,
And the light around me will be night,”
12 Even the darkness is not dark [h]to You,
And the night is as bright as the day.
Darkness and light are alike to You." Ps. 139:7-12 (NASB)

razzelflabben · Oct 1, 2016

Achilles6129 said:
God is everywhere. You also have the following passage to deal with:

"10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed [f]in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and [g]brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb." Rev. 14:10 (NASB)

And also:

"Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8 If I ascend to heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in [f]Sheol, behold, You are there.
9 If I take the wings of the dawn,
If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea,
10 Even there Your hand will lead me,
And Your right hand will lay hold of me.
11 If I say, “Surely the darkness will [g]overwhelm me,
And the light around me will be night,”
12 Even the darkness is not dark [h]to You,
And the night is as bright as the day.
Darkness and light are alike to You." Ps. 139:7-12 (NASB)

already pointed out that there is a difference between the omnipresence of God and where He dwells...I am going to assume you just missed it rather than you being another one that just ignores what you can't or don't want to accept or address.
already pointed out

Achilles6129 · Oct 1, 2016

razzelflabben said:
already pointed out that there is a difference between the omnipresence of God and where He dwells...I am going to assume you just missed it rather than you being another one that just ignores what you can't or don't want to accept or address.
already pointed out

OK, fair enough, but the passage seems to mean "presence of the Lamb" in the sense of where the Lamb dwells. What are your thoughts on that? Am I reading it wrong?

Major1 · Oct 1, 2016

Achilles6129 said:
OK, fair enough, but the passage seems to mean "presence of the Lamb" in the sense of where the Lamb dwells. What are your thoughts on that? Am I reading it wrong?

To tell you the truth, I am not sure what you are saying.

Would you please post the Bible verse you are speaking about?

Achilles6129 · Oct 1, 2016

Major1 said:
To tell you the truth, I am not sure what you are saying.

Would you please post the Bible verse you are speaking about?

It's in post #1414.

razzelflabben · Oct 3, 2016

Achilles6129 said:
OK, fair enough, but the passage seems to mean "presence of the Lamb" in the sense of where the Lamb dwells. What are your thoughts on that? Am I reading it wrong?

"10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed [f]in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and [g]brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb." Rev. 14:10 (NASB)
[/quote] how long is the torment in this passage? It isn't until verse 11 that we see that they will have no rest...now, last time I checked, if I "witness" and even happening, it is happening in my presence but I don't have to stay and watch the whole ordeal play out to have witnessed what happened.

One poster insists that we use real world examples, so here is one. I am driving in my car, I witness an accident happening before me. The cops get to the scene, take my statement then ask me to leave so that I am not in the way of their clean up efforts. Because I witnessed the accident, I was in the presence of the accident as it happened, right? Right! But because I didn't stay and watch them pull the bodies from the wreckage, was I no longer present when the accident happened? Of course not, that would be absurd. Likewise, just because the angels and the "Lamb" witness the completion of the deed does not mean they stand there gawking for ever and ever. In fact, that would be pretty absurd to assume from the passage and the context thereof. Rather, what would be consistent is that they watch to make sure that those who are sentenced to hell are there in accordance with the law.

And also:

"Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8 If I ascend to heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in [f]Sheol, behold, You are there.
9 If I take the wings of the dawn,
If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea,
10 Even there Your hand will lead me,
And Your right hand will lay hold of me.
11 If I say, “Surely the darkness will [g]overwhelm me,
And the light around me will be night,”
12 Even the darkness is not dark [h]to You,
And the night is as bright as the day.
Darkness and light are alike to You." Ps. 139:7-12 (NASB)

sheol.. is the bosom of Abraham/hades both death and hades/bosom of abraham/sheol are thrown into the lake of fire which is hell.....here is a site that will explain it for you since space is limited by those who don't read well or don't want to read what is written in these posts...http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/sheol/

faroukfarouk · Oct 3, 2016

razzelflabben said:
"10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed [f]in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and [g]brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb." Rev. 14:10 (NASB)
how long is the torment in this passage? It isn't until verse 11 that we see that they will have no rest...now, last time I checked, if I "witness" and even happening, it is happening in my presence but I don't have to stay and watch the whole ordeal play out to have witnessed what happened.

One poster insists that we use real world examples, so here is one. I am driving in my car, I witness an accident happening before me. The cops get to the scene, take my statement then ask me to leave so that I am not in the way of their clean up efforts. Because I witnessed the accident, I was in the presence of the accident as it happened, right? Right! But because I didn't stay and watch them pull the bodies from the wreckage, was I no longer present when the accident happened? Of course not, that would be absurd. Likewise, just because the angels and the "Lamb" witness the completion of the deed does not mean they stand there gawking for ever and ever. In fact, that would be pretty absurd to assume from the passage and the context thereof. Rather, what would be consistent is that they watch to make sure that those who are sentenced to hell are there in accordance with the law.sheol.. is the bosom of Abraham/hades both death and hades/bosom of abraham/sheol are thrown into the lake of fire which is hell.....here is a site that will explain it for you since space is limited by those who don't read well or don't want to read what is written in these posts...http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/sheol/

Hi, razzelflabben:

I always think it bizarre when ppl are only too pleased to accept Biblical references to eternal life, but not to its opposite.

The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

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