The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

razzelflabben · Sep 20, 2016

mmksparbud said:
You can take the simplest thing and turn it into an essay---

I will take that as a compliment, thank you.

-I don't know how many times I have to quote the bible says we are punished according to our works.

that wasn't the question you were asked, so your just avoiding answering again....this is getting tiring.

We are not saved by our works. I do not have to explain what works those are---The 10 commandment lists most of them.

ah, so now you want to change your answer to works are the law? Interesting...

And God goes further, for, like I keep saying, He knows the heart. Jesus said if you have lust in your hesrt you are guilty of adultery. Because God decides how long someone will suffer has nothing to do with God is going to decide to have a 14 year old boy who stole $5 be tormented in hell forever. He will not to that for the simple reason it is according to their works. God does not do infinite punishment for finite crimes. He can't, because it is not who He is. It is not us deciding what He can or can not do, it is Himself.

so, if as you changed your stand, works are anything that breaks the law, what is breaking the law? What does that mean in biblical terms? IOW's what is the word used that sums up what it means to break the law? Also, what law, you say above the 10 commandments then talk about some kid stealing a $5 bill, what if his parents made him make restitution, does that qualify as breaking the law? I look forward to you answering these questions. And just for the record, you still haven't answered my question about time served in earthly jail?

Exo 34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
Exo 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
He will punish the wicked---there is no doubt about that. He gives eternal life to none but the saved, the lost do not get it in order to burn forever.

We aren't talking about that at the moment. At the moment the only thing you need to answer is what is breaking the law and does time served in earthly jail qualify as shorter sentence in hell? IOW's who are the wicked?

mmksparbud · Sep 20, 2016

razzelflabben said:
now, wait just one moment...the passage in Rev. 20:14 was presented to the poster who said that hell would be remade with the new heaven and new earth...iow's done away with when the new heaven and new earth were destroyed. As I showed in this passage that is not what the passage says, what it says is that death and hades/bosom of Abraham are thrown into the lake of fire. Now, where it is true that some people equate hell to hades/bosom of Abraham, that is not consistent with the cultural understanding of the day nor the translation issues. So what we have is death and the waiting area (so to speak) are thrown into the lake of fire...now, we need to reconcile that against Rev. 20:10 so that our context is in tack...notice that it says that 1. they are caste into the lake of fire, aka hell not the bosom or abraham/hades. But even if we want to ignore that, death and hades/bosom of Abraham are caste into the lake of fire just 4 verses down...so even if we want to ignore literary rules we still see that the lake of fire or hell is holding the beast (satan) and the false prophets...now quick side note, I pointed out several times over that the false prophets in scripture are always human beings so this passage clearly tells us by adding false prophets that human beings will inhabit the lake of fire....now, go on, what does it say? where they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Now I know some of you all refuse to accept the wording here but you have been shown and have not refuted that this means eternal when we look at translational understanding of the text.

So there are three huge, glaring things that were brought out that you need a rebuttal for but refuse to provide,
1. where in scripture does it say that hades/bosom of Abraham are the same thing as the hell/lake of fire they are thrown into.
2. where in scripture do we ever see a false prophet that is NOT human
and
3. how when the word used here differs from the word meaning season or age or period of time does it mean season or age or period of time when the writer repeats the word to emphasis the meaning of longer than season, age, period of time. IOW's the construct of the lang. the passage was written in emphasises the word used for forever to make sure that the reader understands that this is a longer period of time than just a season or age or period of time, but rather to clarify for us that the meaning intended is eternal.

I look forward to your rebuttal of these three issues with your claims, numbering them might help us follow what you want to argue against.

1. Bosom of Abraham, hell, Hades, lake of fire, all are done away with so it doesn't matter to me what they are called.
2. I never said a false prophet is not human---I said Rev 20:10 says THE DEVIL AND THE FALSE PROPHET--NOT PLURAL. And it will be s very long time for Satan and the false prophet---but not forever for God will make all things new.
3. No matter what it still can not be eternal for it is done away with.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

There can be no conscious forever torment because God says there will be no more pain, there will be no sorrow, crying no more death--death will not come again after the 2nd death. Former things all passed away. New earth. There is no sin, and no sinners burning.

aiki · Sep 20, 2016

Butch5 said:
Elephant Hurling is a logical fallacy. Since you only need one passage of Scripture to show I'm wrong please pick your strongest evidence and I'll address it.

Start at the top and work your way down.

By the way, I'm not sure you understand what a logical fallacy is. Answering your challenge comprehensively is not a logical fallacy. It might be inconvenient for you to answer a long reply, but the length of my reply has nothing to do with its logic.

Selah.

Butch5 · Sep 20, 2016

Major1 said:
Butch, I have to disagree with you. Where it is used in Scripture, the "Context" demands that it be interpreted exactly as that.

IMO, the reason why you do not accept is that we as humans have trouble understanding infinity.

Ecclesiastes 3:11.........
“He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end.”

Butch, if we carefully study all the passages where we find the phrase "Forever & ever" I think you will conclude that the term "for ever" as used in the Holy Scriptures denotes continuity (without a break) of action, being, or state of being. It is obvious that it may mean either a long or a short period of time, either definite or indefinite. So what is the answer to this. The key to understanding the length of time involved depends on the nature of the person or thing to which the word is applied or better said....context.

So then when we read of God that "His mercy endureth for ever," it means that as long as God shall exist, His mercy will exist. Why is that the case???? Because God is eternal in His nature, His attributes are eternal also.

Likewise, when we read that the lake of fire lasts forever & for ever that means eternally. WHY?????
Because God is eternal in His nature, His attributes are eternal also.

As long as God lives, then the context of what He says is forever and forever will live also.

No, the reason I don't accept it is because I've studied it. I've look at how the words olam and aion are used in Scripture. A word can't have opposing meanings, that would defeat it's purpose, which is to communicate. You couldn't use a word to communicate that meant both yes and no. The words olam and aion are used of finite periods of time. As such they cannot mean both finite and infinite.

In your example you're reading your theology back into the definition. The Lake of Fire is not eternal. Ezekiel prophesied that Gehenna would be made holy to the Lord.

Butch5 · Sep 20, 2016

Jason0047 said:
No more sacrifices are required anymore.
Christ is now our passover lamb.

"For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us." (1 Corinthians 5:7).

As for the Jews:
Did they accept their Messiah or Savior?
Can one be saved without Jesus?

...

I agree that no more sacrifices were required. However, the Jews did continue the sacrifices until the temple was destroyed.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 20, 2016

Butch5 said:
I agree that no more sacrifices were required. However, the Jews did continue the sacrifices until the temple was destroyed.

But their sacrifices were not accepted by God, though.
Jesus is the only acceptable sacrifice now.
For there is no other name under heaven whereby men can be saved but Jesus.

...

razzelflabben · Sep 20, 2016

mmksparbud said:
1. Bosom of Abraham, hell, Hades, lake of fire, all are done away with so it doesn't matter to me what they are called.

no, as you were shown and refused a rebuttal, the bosom of Abraham/hades and the lake of fire are not the same thing...in fact, according to scripture that I provided hades/bosom of Abraham are thrown into the lake of fire....nothing about the lake of fire being done away with that I know of, you are encouraged to show passages that show it is, but instead you resort to false accusations and restating your opinion as it you were god.

2. I never said a false prophet is not human---I said Rev 20:10 says THE DEVIL AND THE FALSE PROPHET--NOT PLURAL. And it will be s very long time for Satan and the false prophet---but not forever for God will make all things new.

please show even one occurrence in scripture where a false prophet is not human...thanks

3. No matter what it still can not be eternal for it is done away with.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was naso more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

as I an others have shown you, this is referring to the believers not all humans or unbelievers, you can show your rebuttal, but just repeating what you believe is not a rebuttal.

There can be no conscious forever torment because God says there will be no more pain, there will be no sorrow, crying no more death--death will not come again after the 2nd death. Former things all passed away. New earth. There is no sin, and no sinners burning.

see above

Butch5 · Sep 20, 2016

Hillsage said:
TWO and that's why I won't say "And may your whole cup of hydrogen, water and oxygen be wet until Butch's understanding gets saturated." If your analogy is to explain 1Thes 5:23 then you are are of an understanding that no one understands.

My analogy is to explain Gen 2:7. If hydrogen and oxygen "BECAME" water which has two part, how is it that it's not the same for the soul? Moses said that God formed the man and breathed into him the breath or spirit of life and the man "BECAME" a living soul. It's the same, two things combined and "BECAME" something else. Water is not a part of water. likewise the soul is not a part of the soul.

razzelflabben · Sep 20, 2016

Butch5 said:
No, the reason I don't accept it is because I've studied it. I've look at how the words olam and aion are used in Scripture. A word can't have opposing meanings, that would defeat it's purpose, which is to communicate. You couldn't use a word to communicate that meant both yes and no. The words olam and aion are used of finite periods of time. As such they cannot mean both finite and infinite.

In your example you're reading your theology back into the definition. The Lake of Fire is not eternal. Ezekiel prophesied that Gehenna would be made holy to the Lord.

the lengths you go to to justify your opinion astounds me

Butch5 · Sep 20, 2016

aiki said:
Start at the top and work your way down.

By the way, I'm not sure you understand what a logical fallacy is. Answering your challenge comprehensively is not a logical fallacy. It might be inconvenient for you to answer a long reply, but the length of my reply has nothing to do with its logic.

Selah.

Believe me know what a fallacy is. This thread is full of them. I posted the fallacy. You didn't give a comprehensive answer. What you gave was a list of passages some with questions and some with a line or two of commentary. That's not comprehensive. It's only comprehensive when you explain how each of those passages supports your position. As I said, you only need one passage to prove me wrong. So, why not take your strongest evidence and expound on it and show how it makes your case. I don't read minds so simply posting a passage without explaining how you understand it doesn't really help.

Butch5 · Sep 20, 2016

Jason0047 said:
But their sacrifices were not accepted by God, though.
Jesus is the only acceptable sacrifice now.
For there is no other name under heaven whereby men can be saved but Jesus.

...

You're correct. I was only pointing out that they continued to do it.

rjs330 · Sep 20, 2016

Jason0047 said:
Being punished for one's crimes is a whole lot different than torturing somebody waaaaaaay beyond what the crime calls for, though.
There are words for things like that.

...

How do you know what the crime of rejecting the sacrifice of Jesus calls for? Only God knows the true severity of that crime. Only He knows the depth of the sacrifice that he made. Perhaps if you had God's understanding you might think differently. That is not a slam. I don't know the depth of the sacrifice. I don't understand the severity of the offense. But God says it's severe enough to warrant eternal punishment. That's good enough for me because he understands what I don't.

rjs330 · Sep 20, 2016

Jason0047 said:
And the weeds were gathered into the barn and BURNED.
It was not unperishiable weeds or super man weeds being gathered into the barn here.

...

Oh dear, he was giving an allegory not specific facts. We are not weeds.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 20, 2016

mmksparbud said:
1. Bosom of Abraham, hell, Hades, lake of fire, all are done away with so it doesn't matter to me what they are called.
2. I never said a false prophet is not human---I said Rev 20:10 says THE DEVIL AND THE FALSE PROPHET--NOT PLURAL. And it will be s very long time for Satan and the false prophet---but not forever for God will make all things new.

I believe the antichrist and the false prophet are demons who inhabit the soul-less bodies of men during the time of the 7 year tribulation.
For they both had risen up out of hell (See Revelation 13:1, and Revelation 13:11). They are demons who have tormented mankind for a long time. So their time in the Lake of Fire is in proportion to the pain they have inficted on mankind. I believe their human bodies will be burned up right away when they are cast alive into the Lake of Fire, but their spirits will remain there until they are destroyed after the Judgment.

...

razzelflabben · Sep 20, 2016

Butch5 said:
Believe me know what a fallacy is. This thread is full of them. I posted the fallacy. You didn't give a comprehensive answer. What you gave was a list of passages some with questions and some with a line or two of commentary. That's not comprehensive. It's only comprehensive when you explain how each of those passages supports your position. As I said, you only need one passage to prove me wrong. So, why not take your strongest evidence and expound on it and show how it makes your case. I don't read minds so simply posting a passage without explaining how you understand it doesn't really help.

I'm still waiting for you to show a different viable interpretation of what the two passages you have repeatedly been shown could possibly mean...

rjs330 · Sep 20, 2016

Der Alter said:
Why would Jesus not speak the truth to the Pharisees and Sadducees? Why would He let them continue to believe false doctrine instead of telling them the truth so they could be saved? That does not make any sense at all.

I suggest that your read real credible, verifiable, historical information instead of the nonsense you posted.
.....Among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem ( Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14 ). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and " Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT biased Christian translators.]
It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b) .
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10 ). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment ( x. 6, xci. 9, et al ). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" ( Judith xvi. 17 ). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched. " Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
When Jesus taught about,

• “Then shall he say … Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment , suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Jesus used the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it was permanent and had nothing to do with punishment. When Jesus said “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.
<•> <•> <•> <•> <•> <•> <•> <•> <•>
The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted...BSac-NT/Scharen-GenenaSyn-Pt1-BS.htm[/indent]
Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source. ” (p. 376n.92)
http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20113-the-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna-is-a-myth/

This is excellent my friend.

mmksparbud · Sep 20, 2016

razzelflabben said:
I will take that as a compliment, thank you. that wasn't the question you were asked, so your just avoiding answering again....this is getting tiring. ah, so now you want to change your answer to works are the law? Interesting...so, if as you changed your stand, works are anything that breaks the law, what is breaking the law? What does that mean in biblical terms? IOW's what is the word used that sums up what it means to break the law? Also, what law, you say above the 10 commandments then talk about some kid stealing a $5 bill, what if his parents made him make restitution, does that qualify as breaking the law? I look forward to you answering these questions. And just for the record, you still haven't answered my question about time served in earthly jail? We aren't talking about that at the moment. At the moment the only thing you need to answer is what is breaking the law and does time served in earthly jail qualify as shorter sentence in hell? IOW's who are the wicked?

Then quite asking the same tired question that keeps getting answered over and over. It is God that says what the heart is, No man can.

1Th_4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
Tit_1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
1Jn_2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn_2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn_3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jn_3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1Jn_5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn_5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
2Jn_1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
Rev_12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev_14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev_22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

We are saved by grace not by works--you can keep all the commandments perfectly, but if you do not love God and keep them out of love for God it will mean nothing. If you can not understand this, I can not help you---I can't explain it any better. Time served in earthly jail?? What that has to do with judgement day I don't know! We can make our own hell on earth by our choices. My brother spend 34 years in hell by doing drugs. He did anything to get the money for them, stole, sold (even to children) and spend most of those years in and out of jail. I know God will take everything about my brother into consideration. His childhood upbringing, his mental capacity, his exposure to truth, not just all the evil he did. My brother will still have to pay for what he did, no matter what kind of hell he brought on himself with his drug use. God will decide. Each person is judged individually--according to their works---not one judgment for all.
Rev_20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Butch5 · Sep 20, 2016

1

razzelflabben said:
the lengths you go to to justify your opinion astounds me

You're welcome to define the word became.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 20, 2016

rjs330 said:
How do you know what the crime of rejecting the sacrifice of Jesus calls for? Only God knows the true severity of that crime. Only He knows the depth of the sacrifice that he made. Perhaps if you had God's understanding you might think differently. That is not a slam. I don't know the depth of the sacrifice. I don't understand the severity of the offense. But God says it's severe enough to warrant eternal punishment. That's good enough for me because he understands what I don't.

God gave us basic reasoning to understand what is good or evil. If we could not discern what is good and right, we could have never been able to accept Jesus and follow Him and His good ways.

Surely you would think it would be unjust or wrong to punish a child by torture in extreme amounts of pain for them stealing another child's toy. If that is the case, then surely you should understand that fair justice teaches us that God will punish people fairly according to what they have done and not by some mythological theory that we are sinning against God for all eternity (when we do not even own a time machine to do so). Eternal Torment is overkill in regards to justice and you know it deep down.

...

razzelflabben · Sep 20, 2016

mmksparbud said:
Then quite asking the same tired question that keeps getting answered over and over. It is God that says what the heart is, No man can.

1Th_4:2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
Tit_1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
1Jn_2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn_2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn_3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jn_3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1Jn_5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn_5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
2Jn_1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
Rev_12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Rev_14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev_22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

We are saved by grace not by works--you can keep all the commandments perfectly, but if you do not love God and keep them out of love for God it will mean nothing. If you can not understand this, I can not help you---I can't explain it any better. Time served in earthly jail?? What that has to do with judgement day I don't know! We can make our own hell on earth by our choices. My brother spend 34 years in hell by doing drugs. He did anything to get the money for them, stole, sold (even to children) and spend most of those years in and out of jail. I know God will take everything about my brother into consideration. His childhood upbringing, his mental capacity, his exposure to truth, not just all the evil he did. My brother will still have to pay for what he did, no matter what kind of hell he brought on himself with his drug use. God will decide. Each person is judged individually--according to their works---not one judgment for all.
Rev_20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

that wasn't the question...so stop claiming to have answered questions you don't even intend to answer.

The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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