The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

[vinsight4u]

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[razzelflabben]

Well, unfortunately, the only scripture I can give you is (Revelation 21:1) And, tell you that as I commune with Jesus, he is speaking things to me, to the Holy Spirit in me that is telling me these things which I believe are these thing spoken of in (John 21:25) and in (Revelation 22:10) (Daniel 12:9)...

I really hate when I have to try to defend someone elses position....

Yesterday I asked my husband about this very topic and he was in the same place I was....the best passage either of us could come up with to defend what you are saying is Revelation 20:14 (HCSB) Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire....now, if you notice in this passage we have the term Hades which some say is hell, we also have "the lake of fire" which is more often called hell. Here is a rather good article about the different words used in scripture. http://www.gotquestions.org/sheol-hades-hell.html So basically, the best we can do based on the passages my husband and I could come up with is that hades which is the realm of the dead or sometimes referred to as the Bosom of Abraham is thrown into the lake of fire or hell...iow's hades or the Bosom of Abraham no longer exists.

years ago I looked into this in the Scofield Study Bible I had at the time. They described Hades or the Bosom of Abraham from the standpoint of Jewish understanding as a kind of holding tank where souls/spirits wait for the day of judgment or iow's before being sentenced to eternity in hell. this understanding would also support btw the story of Lazarus and the rich man if he was in fact in hades or the Bosom of Abraham waiting judgment. IOW's he would have known what hell fire was like but not have been there yet.

Now, that is the best I can do to support your position, the passage you posted as support doesn't support it at all. Please do some cross references and get back to me if you find something more. I am really interested in this but at the moment I have to side with the scriptures I post above and the conclusions thereof.

Unfortunately the Bible doesn't say more on this than that, Just like it doesn't go into detail about the "deep things of Satan" it also doesn't tell us the "deep details about Hell" either...

Now, if you, and the reason I asked you, could present scripture to refute or is contrary to what I said, then, great, I'm wrong, I can abandon the line of reasoning and move on to something else, however, if you can't, then, I think I'm gonna "roll with it" for now, unless I learn otherwise in the future...

God Bless!

see above...

 

[Major1]

Then you still don't understand.
Limitless punishment is by definition utterly disproportionate to limited sinning.

Isn't that mans way of looking at it?

What is God's way?

Rev. 20:10 & 15...........
"The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

15). " And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."

The only real question is this. Are those real, truthful verses found in the Word of God?????????

 

[razzelflabben]

Neither of those passages say that those are parts of man. That is being imposed on the text. If Paul has said, I pray your soul, body, and clothing, would be kept from destruction, would you argue that your clothing is part of man? I don't think you would make that argument. This shows that the sentence structure doesn't require that these are a part of man.

actually, you just argued that the sentence structure just confirmed that man is three parts...otherwise it would not be written as it is.

The Scriptures weren't written to people who had modern science. God gave them to people and expected them to understand what He was saying. So, trying to compare modern science to something written thousands of years ago is comparing apples and oranges.

so, you really believe that God doesn't know the science of the world He created? I beg to differ with you on this topic. I think God absolutely knows the science of the world He created and if scripture is God breathed as I believe it is, then God will work with a correct understanding of science not a warped or missing one.

There is no implication and I didn't give an interpretation. I stated just what the passage says. On the contrary, you gave the interpretation that it's talking about thinking with your soul. That is contrary to Scripture.

I still haven't heard an explanation for how something that is the same can be divided and separated from one another.

Firstly the "us" there is a Majestic Plural. However, just because God is spirit that doesn't necessitate that that is what God meant. God also is love. Is man love? It's doubtful when you look at all of the killing he does. Again, the point is that the idea is being imposed on the text. God said, 'let us make man in our image." It's then inferred that because God is spirit it must mean that man is spirit. No, doesn't have to mean that just because God is spirit that He means that man is spirit. That is an assumption. God didn't expound on what He meant when He said 'let us make man in our image".

Now, I am answering solely for myself here even though this is directed at another poster. If, the argument for body, soul, and spirit is coming from Gen. as you assert here, why were the reasons and evidence provided from different passages? Gen. supports the other view, but that wasn't the evidence provided. So where is the comprehension in what is being said about the topic?

The problem is the presuppositions we bring to the text. The passages you're posting don't say that there are three parts to man. You already believe that so when you see those passages you believe that that's what they are saying. Look for a single passage of Scripture that says there are three parts to man or that man is a spirit. You won't find any such thing in the Scriptures. You'll find passages that say your spirit or the spirit in man, but that doesn't necessitate that the spirit is the man. We know that there is a spirit in man because we saw that in Gen 2:7 it is God's. The words your and you are different. You denotes who you are, your denotes what is in your possession or is associated with you. So, when we see in Scripture "your spirit" we know that it is spirit that we are in possession of or associated with. Again, that is God's breath or spirit of life that He gives to every living thing.

it is convenient that you refuse to address how to reconcile the passages I presented against your opinions then make accusations like this....convenient but false.

 

[razzelflabben]

I find it interesting that I am 68 years old and did not realize there were Christian groups who do not believe that Hell is eternal but is rather an "unquenchable fire" that totally annihilates the unbeliever. First of all, I know that JW's have their own view on Hell and I'm not a JW! I have concluded however after looking at some good studies on this that Hell is not eternal torment and that the very few verses that "sound like" Hell is eternal are either parables of Jesus or a picture of being lost (such as in Revelation). I won't even attempt to list all the scriptures and words associated with Hell but it has always been very hard for me to believe that God would find it necessary to punish souls for eternity simply because they chose not to receive eternal life. In my prayers I have many times brought this up to God and asked why it would be necessary for unbelievers to suffer for eternity. Now, I am convinced that somewhere along the line, not long after the early church, that the idea of an eternal Hell was introduced as a way of frightening people into becoming a part of the church. In the studies of the various words used for "Hell" it becomes apparent to me that 90%+ of the Bible is clearly talking about the grave and unconsciousness. Why would 90%+ of the Bible use a word that is not about eternal torment and then suddenly Jesus changes the meaning of the word? The answer is that Jesus did NOT change the meaning, he was simply speaking in parables in order to hide the true meaning from the Pharisees or whoever else had their own beliefs about death, eternity, and Hell.

three things 1. I find it interesting that you say "after looking at some good studies on this..." these are man's words not scripture. Some such studies are good, some not so much.
2. You talk about the passages that talk about eternal hell are parables, please show how using literary rules for comprehension you get this from. I see figurative but not parable. I'm interested in knowing what words suggest to you these are parables and how they compare with those that we know for fact are parables. As a reading minor I simple can't see it but am open to something I missed if you will kindly present your method of coming to that conclusion.
3. What passage do you base your conclusion of unconsciousness on which have not already been disproved to be the case. You say that 90% + of the Bible uses a word for eternal torment then changes the meaning of the word, where does this happen, specifically please. You can't just claim parable because you don't understand a translational word issue, there have to be other markers. So I really need you to present some of the evidences you use to come to your conclusions before I can buy it and other teachers saying X, Y, or Z won't do it, it has to be from scripture itself.

 

[razzelflabben]

One of the biggest problems with ECT (Eternal Concious Torment) is that nobody can explain the morality or goodness behind it. They just essentially say, "GOD and His Word is the reason" and that is it. But God's Word is interpreted in many ways. The true understanding of God's Word should line up with what is truly loving and good (in regards to fair justice). Most ECT Proponents say we cannot know His Judgment (when it comes to ECT).

But Proverbs says,

"Then shalt thou understand righteousness, and judgment, and equity; yea, every good path."
(Proverbs 2:9).

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wait...I have done this and no one challenges it, not even you...so let's try again...

According to scripture eternal hell fire is the consequence of sin and a HOLY God. As such there is nothing in conflict with God's character. Further, because eternal hell fire is the consequence that is of the natural law of sin and a HOLY God, it is consistent with God's Love and justice to sentence people to hell, if He didn't as Judge, it would in fact contradict God's nature. Further, by providing a way to avoid hell, God is demonstrating the vastness of HIs LOVE which further demonstrates His character....iows if we understand what scripture says when it tells us that eternal hell is the consequence of the nature law, there is nothing contradictory at all and in fact, it totally and completely supports the character of God.

 

[razzelflabben]

We used to receive regular visits from this lady who tried to intimidate my parents into church attendance via shouting threats of hell. What really impressed me was the furious anger displayed as she spoke about us being roasted alive forever unless we attended services. For some reason my child mind just couldn't reconcile that display as representative of a loving God.

this is the very kind of non sense that causes more harm than good when we get our teaching of hell fire out of whack with the way Christ taught hell fire. IOW's the problem here isn't so much about hell fire belief but how it is not consistent with the way scripture teaches and uses hell to teach us about God.

We see this kind of thing in other areas of spiritual life as well but a great example none the less....I am sorry this happened to your family. May you dismiss the ugliness of misuse in order to see the beauty of truth.

 

[razzelflabben]

What is really strange about hellifirists is that they totally ignore the innate immoral nature of the punishment itself and glibly attempt to justify it based on power and creatorship two premises which are seriously are flawed.

and yet you have not challenged my claims of consequence either...

 

[razzelflabben]

Matthew 18:34
"And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him."

First, the verse says "tormentors" and not "torturers" in the KJV (Which I believe is God's final Word of authority).
Second, the tormentors did not torment this person for all eternity. The second half of this verse says that they would be tormented until he paid all that was due.


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which leaves the question what debt is owed?

I asked this question previously and got no answer, who decides the length of time that is owed? How do we know how long we will suffer? Where is the guidelines for what is and is not punishable for eternity? For example, what is an acceptable length of time to suffer for murder? who decides? Does time in earthly prison count against my sentence?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

One of the biggest problems with ECT (Eternal Concious Torment) is that nobody can explain the morality or goodness behind it. They just essentially say, "GOD and His Word is the reason" and that is it. But God's Word is interpreted in many ways. The true understanding of God's Word should line up with what is truly loving and good (in regards to fair justice). Most ECT Proponents say we cannot know His Judgment (when it comes to ECT).

But Proverbs says,

"Then shalt thou understand righteousness, and judgment, and equity; yea, every good path."
(Proverbs 2:9).

That is like saying God should love the fallen
angels. They made their choice. Now God will
judge them without mercy.

I do not follow your logic. Please explain better in more detail.
For do you think it is unloving or ujust of God to punish fallen angels and wicked men according to their crimes and then destroy them? How do you see this as unloving or unjust? Can you give me a real world example?

Thank you.
And may God bless you.

Side Note:

Oh, and how do you not see torturing somebody for all time for a finite amount of crimes that they committed here on this Earth as loving and just?


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[Bible Highlighter]

 

[vinsight4u]

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[aiki]

(See post #891) For the very obvious reason that God isn't anyone's boyfriend. I take it you are oblivious to the enormous category error you've just made here? You wouldn't have posted this silly graphic if you were.

Oh, and while I believe quite thoroughly in ECT, I don't think the punishment is "beautiful." What is beautiful, though, is God's perfect justice meted out upon human depravity.

Selah.

 

[razzelflabben]

which leaves the question what debt is owed?

I asked this question previously and got no answer, who decides the length of time that is owed? How do we know how long we will suffer? Where is the guidelines for what is and is not punishable for eternity?

maybe, just maybe because that is NOT what God is saying to us...just a thought, I mean if this isn't what God is saying why would someone else saying it be okay? I don't know... you can explain

 

[Bible Highlighter]

(See post #891) For the very obvious reason that God isn't anyone's boyfriend. I take it you are oblivious to the enormous category error you've just made here? You wouldn't have posted this silly graphic if you were.

Oh, and while I believe quite thoroughly in ECT, I don't think the punishment is "beautiful." What is beautiful is, though, is God's perfect justice meted out upon human depravity.

Selah.

That is totally contradictory. You said the punishment is not beautiful but God's perfect justice being meted out on depraved humans is beautiful? That is saying the same thing. Oh, and how exactly is it beautiful to torture people alive for all eternity? Can you honestly say it is beautiful to hear the screams from the old lady down the street in the Lake of Fire for all time? God's Word says, "Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? " (Ezekiel 18:23).

The key word here is... "die."
Not eternal torture in flames.

As for God being our spouse or loved one: Well, Scripture says the church (i.e. God's people) is His bride.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Do I like the idea that the wicked will be tormented for ever and ever, and we seem to have to watch this at times? No.

And that's why it is wrong. Your conscience bears witness that it is wrong.


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[rjs330]

That is totally contradictory. You said the punishment is not beautiful but God's perfect justice being meted out on depraved humans is beautiful? That is saying the same thing. Oh, and how exactly is it beautiful to torture people alive for all eternity? Can you honestly say it is beautiful to hear the screams from the old lady down the street in hell? God's Word says, "Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? " (Ezekiel 18:23).

The key word here is... "die."
Not eternal torture in flames.

As for God being our spouse or loved one: Well, Scripture says the church (i.e. God's people) is His bride.


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The church is his bride and will,be treated and rewarded as such. The wicked, who have rejected the sacrifice of Jesus will be punished for the atrocity.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[Bible Highlighter]

The church is his bride and will,be treated and rewarded as such. The wicked, who have rejected the sacrifice of Jesus will be punished for the atrocity.

Being punished for one's crimes is a whole lot different than torturing somebody waaaaaaay beyond what the crime calls for, though.
There are words for things like that.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

inherit the kingdom/the new earth is coming
Those still alive must get divided up - as to the nations.

wheat/tares...chaff
sheep/goats
wise virgins/foolish virgins
Time for there to no longer be any wicked people left on
the earth or to die the first death.

1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Galatians 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

And the weeds were gathered into the barn and BURNED.
It was not unperishiable weeds or super man weeds being gathered into the barn here.


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