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The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

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While it is true that Christ died for the sins of the whole world it is also equally true that those who worshiped the beast did not have their names written in the book of life since the foundation of the world. In other words, those who will worship the beast are the exception to the rule here. Jesus did not die for the sins of those who worshiped the beast because their names were intentionally left out of the book of life since the foundation of the world. Everyone who was once a baby (besides those who worship the beast) was saved. But when the baby grows up, they fall into sin and need a Savior. These are prodigal sons that need to come back home to the Father. Also, names can be blotted out of the book of life, too. In other words, during the time, when people grow up and start to sin (as a part of having the knowledge of good and evil), their name was blotted out. So in order to add their name back, they have to receive Jesus and follow Him. If they go back to sinning again, then their name will be blotted out yet again.


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Major1

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God love brother but you have got to come up with a plan to shorten your comments. Such a long post causes me to not read it.
 
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razzelflabben

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You're just full fallacies, huh? I didn't say anything about what I believed. I said they aren't the ones who translated it into English. Your ad hominem fallacies do nothing to further your argument. Actually, they show you don't have one.
huh? Now it appears you don't even have a clue what you are saying or trying to argue, I think that is a good sign that we need to be done. Sorry that you felt it necessary to flame instead of respond but such is life.
 
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Major1

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Well, you are the 1st person to disagree with me (lol).

May I ask you to clarify your comment a little for me? I am just an old country boy.

What does IOW's mean????

Are you referring to Old Test. saints. They are saved by faith then just as we are today. They were looking ahead for the Messiah and we look back at the Messiah. The shed blood of animals pointed to the shed blood of Christ.
 
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Major1

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nice post and for all those who rely on the "cause I say so" argument, this post shows how to use common literary rules for comprehension to support the position being presented. Thanks, it was a refreshing post.

That is a very nice thing to say. God bless you for your thoughts.
 
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Butch5

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The Jews still offered sacrifices until the temple was destroyed.
 
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razzelflabben

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IOW...In other words, I wouldn't know it except it was kind of forced on me.

In your clarification post, I see that we agree. Let me put it another way. when my husband and I talk about things like this, we often correct one another on the way we word what we mean because where we agree with each other, the way something is worded can present a wrong impression. That being said let me see if I can be clearer in what I am saying.

According to scripture, hell/death is the consequence of sin. IOW's if you sin, you die (the second death) the only remedy for this is the blood of Christ. Why? Because the blood of Christ is a death that already payed the price the law demanded. Therefore, those who go to hell go because of their sin, it is the price the law demands, those who believe have had the blood of Christ already applied to their debt.

Another way of saying the same thing. Sin is why there is death, either we die (spiritual or second death) or Christ does. The choice is ours but the death penalty is NOT because we refuse Jesus, the penalty doesn't change what changes is who dies for our sins.

Does that help?
 
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Major1

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The phrase, "forever and ever" is a superlative. It doen's mean eternity.

Butch, I have to disagree with you. Where it is used in Scripture, the "Context" demands that it be interpreted exactly as that.

IMO, the reason why you do not accept is that we as humans have trouble understanding infinity.

Ecclesiastes 3:11.........
“He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end.”

Butch, if we carefully study all the passages where we find the phrase "Forever & ever" I think you will conclude that the term "for ever" as used in the Holy Scriptures denotes continuity (without a break) of action, being, or state of being. It is obvious that it may mean either a long or a short period of time, either definite or indefinite. So what is the answer to this. The key to understanding the length of time involved depends on the nature of the person or thing to which the word is applied or better said....context.

So then when we read of God that "His mercy endureth for ever," it means that as long as God shall exist, His mercy will exist. Why is that the case???? Because God is eternal in His nature, His attributes are eternal also.

Likewise, when we read that the lake of fire lasts forever & for ever that means eternally. WHY?????
Because God is eternal in His nature, His attributes are eternal also.

As long as God lives, then the context of what He says is forever and forever will live also.
 
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Major1

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Yes mam. I agree with you in principle and I am glad you and I are on the same page. I am not new to Christian forums, however I am to this one and I am seeing a lot of people who do not grasp the Word of God but instead are relying on their own understanding. I am glad to find you are not one of those.

Basically, my understanding over the years has convinced me that God became a human being so that He could die for human beings. Jesus, God in human form, died on the cross. As God, His death was infinite and eternal in value, paying the full price for mans sin. God then invites all human beings to receive Jesus Christ as Savior, accepting His death as the full and just payment for our sins. God promises that anyone who believes in Jesus, trusting Him alone as the Savior will be saved from the coming judgment and will not go to hell.

It is also my understanding that the sin of UNBELIEF is the only sin which can and will send the sinner to hell.

Matthew 12:31. .......
"Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men."

We learn in Matthew 12:31 that every sin will be forgiven, except one – the blasphemy against the Spirit.

What then is "Blasphemy"?????

So then the only sin mentioned above that involves actions and thoughts is the sin of denying Christ and speaking against Him. So blasphemy against Christ is to reject Him and speak evil or injuriously about Him. That is UNBELIEF!

Every sin we are able to commit is also able to be forgive except the sin of UNBELIEF.

I am a lot like David. I do not know of many sins I have not committed but like David I have a heart for God and I am thankful the He is able to forgive me of my sins!!!!
 
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Major1

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Here is another way to say what I am saying....people die (second death) because of their sins, those who live live because they allowed Christ to be their blood sacrifice or to die in their place. He is the scapegoat...

According to Scripture in Rev. 20, isn't the second death actually the lake of fire?

Rev. 20:14.........
"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death."
 
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razzelflabben

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amen...the issue though is that in this discussion some refuse to accept that sin is why hell is even talked about in scripture. In fact, one person came right out and said that sin isn't why men go to hell, when asked what is, there was no answer. That is why I took issue with how it was stated. If we do not understand we all have sinned and that is why Christ's coming and suffering and death and resurrection were needed, we miss Christ altogether. In fact, I personally know some people who refuse to call any of the sins they committed or do commit sin but rather, "just a mistake". How can Christ forgive us if we don't even understand that we have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God? How can we seek Christ's cleansing from all unrighteousness if we have no clue that the thing that stands between God and man in the first place is sin? SEe, we do agree, we disagree (maybe) on the importance of how to explain it.
It is also my understanding that the sin of UNBELIEF is the only sin which can and will send the sinner to hell.
I wouldn't disagree, but again, I think wording is important here. Unbelief is the only unforgivable sin, however, if we do not apply the blood of Christ to our other sins, or in other words, seek reconciliation with God aka forgiveness, then those sins remain a problem that separates man from God. That is why scripture says over and over to repent, to be cleansed, to be forgiven. more specifically, against God but yes, we agree on this...
 
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razzelflabben

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According to Scripture in Rev. 20, isn't the second death actually the lake of fire?

Rev. 20:14.........
"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death."
agreed, that is kind of what I was saying when I said it was wrong to call hades/bosom of Abraham hell
 
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Bible Highlighter

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The Jews still offered sacrifices until the temple was destroyed.

No more sacrifices are required anymore.
Christ is now our passover lamb.

"For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us." (1 Corinthians 5:7).

As for the Jews:
Did they accept their Messiah or Savior?
Can one be saved without Jesus?



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mmksparbud

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No it means both soul and body can be destroyed.
 
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According to Scripture in Rev. 20, isn't the second death actually the lake of fire?

Rev. 20:14.........
"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death."

It's called the second death because it is related to the first death. The first death is the destruction or end of our 1st physical bodies. The second death is the destruction or end of the wicked's physical body after they receive their 2nd body in the: "Resurrection of the Unjust" (Which takes place shortly before the Judgment - For death and hell delivered up the dead - Revelation 20:13).


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mmksparbud

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Yes, Jesus is serious about sin---that is why He will totally do away with it. Both sin and sinner will be destroyed. Why should there be a problem with accepting eternal life with Jesus? He is life itself. He grants eternal life as a gift to the saved. He does not grant eternal life to the lost so that they can burn forever. There is not one single verse that says death is separation from God, not one. Like there is no verse that says the lost also get eternal life.
 
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mmksparbud

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God love brother but you have got to come up with a plan to shorten your comments. Such a long post causes me to not read it.

I was just going to say that---I can't read all that---I loose track of what is being said. I have fibro and my brain can't deal with long posts. I have found most people will not read a long post even without fibro. Along with too many points in one post.
 
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mmksparbud

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You can take the simplest thing and turn it into an essay----I don't know how many times I have to quote the bible says we are punished according to our works. We are not saved by our works. I do not have to explain what works those are---The 10 commandment lists most of them. And God goes further, for, like I keep saying, He knows the heart. Jesus said if you have lust in your hesrt you are guilty of adultery. Because God decides how long someone will suffer has nothing to do with God is going to decide to have a 14 year old boy who stole $5 be tormented in hell forever. He will not to that for the simple reason it is according to their works. God does not do infinite punishment for finite crimes. He can't, because it is not who He is. It is not us deciding what He can or can not do, it is Himself.
Exo 34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
Exo 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
He will punish the wicked---there is no doubt about that. He gives eternal life to none but the saved, the lost do not get it in order to burn forever.
 
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Hillsage

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I wouldn't expect you to read all of the posts, maybe just a few of mine since you replied to my post.



Let me ask you, what is water made of? How many elements does it consist of.
TWO and that's why I won't say "And may your whole cup of hydrogen, water and oxygen be wet until Butch's understanding gets saturated." If your analogy is to explain 1Thes 5:23 then you are are of an understanding that no one understands.
 
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