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I don't think so at all.
Punishment for a crime is related to its seriousness, not to the timespan in which it was committed. The point of the OP was to attempt to show that the seriousness of the offense does indeed merit eternal torture.
Its not just retribution, God is eliminating evil completely once and forever. Take those seals in context. The first rider is the world conquerer, followed by world war, famine and plague. This is a bloody infamous rampage. They are avenged in the sixth plague and hid beneath the earth, caves and dens of the rocks. Apparently it's like Pharoh hardening his heart at first and God hardening Pharohs heart later. Like the Canaanites gettin hundreds of years for their iniquity to come to fruition. The armies of the antichrist never repent but many during that time will, its the whole point.
There can be no question that they deserve it but in the end perdition is about ending evil forever. Now we can say its a permanent condition of torment or annilation but to what end would they survive for all eternity? Again it's the paradox of a stone God makes that's too big for him to pick up. Surely if its in God's power to create from nothing it's within his capacity to reduce to nothing. Or is it?
I'm hung up on one verse describing the torment lasting forever. I am looking at annilation for a lot of the same reasons I hold to an ex nihleo (out of nothing) creation. In a word, omnipotence.
Grace and peace,
Mark
I was all ready to hit the like button until this last part here...as per the discussions on this thread, the question in Matthew 10:28 was not soul but what destruction means. IOW's you are twisting the discussion to make a point which is invalid.That's what I mean. Those that believe in an immortal soul, will say the word soul does not mean a person, except when it suits them and they claim context. When we do the same thing, and say soul does mean a person and claim context, you guys will say were wrong, it doesn't mean that. I say the soul that sinneth will die, you say that means a person. When I quote
Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
You still do not believe that Jesus meant the soul will be destroyed even though it says both body and soul. Context is what you claim it to be. I know the word soul can have different meanings. I also have looked up Hebrew and Greek meanings--that is why I believe the way I do. The Hebrew can be incredibly complex, and very different in concept from our modern ideas.
then you went off the rail again here where you claim that some of us are claiming when the soul is given. some might or might not be, that has never really been clear in this discussion. what has been clear is the claim that man has body, soul, and spirit and we have been told repeatedly that man doesn't have a soul and spirit, that they are one and the same thing.Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
I have been repeatedly told that this is when we were given our immortal souls--even though that verse says no such thing.
You should look up the different parts of man as per what scripture says about them...it's very interesting...for example, the heart is also where emotions and determination exist....but what is even more telling is how man is instructed to Love the Lord with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength....notice we are to love God with all our soul, a soul that some here have tried to claim does NOT exist...how can we Love God with a non existing part of God? Hum?Genesis 2:7
and Yhwh the Elohiym molded the human of powder from the ground and he exhaled in his nostrils a breath of life and the human existed for a living being,
ha'a'dam
the~HUMAN
lê'ne'phesh
to~BEING
hhai'yah
LIVING
Genesis 1:21
and Elohiym fattened the great crocodile and all the living beings the treaders which swarm the waters to their kind, and all the flyers of the wing to his kind, and Elohiym saw that it was functional,
ne'phesh
BEING
Genesis 1:24
and Elohiym said, the land will bring out living beings to her kind, beasts and treaders and living ones of the land to her kind, and he existed so, ne'phesh
BEING
http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/emagazine/012.html
....In Genesis 2:7 we find that man is a "living soul" and in Genesis 1:21 we find that animals are "living creatures"......these two English phrases were the translations of the same Hebrew phrase - nephesh hhayah. Why would the translators translate nephesh hhayahas "living soul" in one place and "living creatures" in another?
In the Hebrew mind we are composed of multiple parts. The body is the flesh and bones, the vessel. The organs are viewed as the seats of thought (the heart), emotion (the kidneys), intuition (gut), etc. The breath is ones character, what makes a person who they are.
The soul is the whole of the person, the unity of the body, breath and mind...... some general definitions for them. The body is the flesh, bones and blood, the vessel. The mind is ones thoughts and emotions. The breath is ones character, what makes a person who they are. It is not some immaterial spiritual entity it is you, all of you, your whole being or self.
I addressed this one sentence for it is what stood out to me.
the biggest argument against this is that eternal death is different than eternal life. IOW's the soul/spirit of man is eternal the question is if it will be eternally alive in Christ or eternally dead in Christ. Some here are confusing eternal life with eternal existence.I didn't read through the whole 32 pages, so this could have been covered before.
I see two main problems with eternal hell for all sinners.
The main problem is that eternal life is a gift from Yahweh, not a judgment. John 3:16
the main argument here is the meaning of the word destroyed. According to translation it does NOT have to mean annihilation, thus context is vital to properly dividing the word.Second, why would Jesus mention that both body and soul can be destroyed? Matt. 10:28
can you show that passage in scripture? ThanksMost people thrown into hell will go pfzzt and burn up.
no, but having no rest kind of does....just saying...No I didn't, the smoke of there torment in the place prepared for the devil and his angels doesn't mean they suffer forever.
your right, you haven't been shown one verse that says we have an immortal soul, you have been shown many...whether you have seen them or not is up to you and your willingness to see. Here is the point...both sides should be able to admit that there are scriptures to defend both positions, to deny this is a falsehood. The question is not if the passages exist or not, they do and all of us who are honest about the topic will confess this, the question is what position reconciles all of the passages into one understanding, for therein is the intent of God in telling us about hell and the soul/spirit of man.LOL---I didn't ignore. It's just that what am I supposed to say when I already know that the word soul has many meanings and I have already understood all those verses you quoted. But if you wish to ignore my post--that's I ok. My questions haven't been answered anyways. I have yet to see one verse that says that we have an immortal soul. I didn't expect an answer to the part about Adam getting his soul at the time God berthed into him, it is the same word as the word for the other creatures. And I asked before. Since they all got the same breath of life from God, are all living things possessed of an immortal soul?
let me offer some food for thought about the omnipotence of God. where God is omnipotent, He also limits His power by His own free will. For example, He refuses to force anyone to turn to Him, it is our own choice. In His omnipotent power, He has limited Himself to our free will.Its not just retribution, God is eliminating evil completely once and forever. Take those seals in context. The first rider is the world conquerer, followed by world war, famine and plague. This is a bloody infamous rampage. They are avenged in the sixth plague and hid beneath the earth, caves and dens of the rocks. Apparently it's like Pharoh hardening his heart at first and God hardening Pharohs heart later. Like the Canaanites gettin hundreds of years for their iniquity to come to fruition. The armies of the antichrist never repent but many during that time will, its the whole point.
There can be no question that they deserve it but in the end perdition is about ending evil forever. Now we can say its a permanent condition of torment or annilation but to what end would they survive for all eternity? Again it's the paradox of a stone God makes that's too big for him to pick up. Surely if its in God's power to create from nothing it's within his capacity to reduce to nothing. Or is it?
I'm hung up on one verse describing the torment lasting forever. I am looking at annilation for a lot of the same reasons I hold to an ex nihleo (out of nothing) creation. In a word, omnipotence.
Grace and peace,
Mark
On the contrary, I've shown plainly what a man is made of. I've asked you to present some teaching from Scripture that teaches us that a man can live on after death. You haven't. You've admitted that it's been inferred. If something is inferred it is because it is "NOT" stated. The argument you're making is a logical fallacy. It's called Begging the Question or Circular reasoning. That is improper reasoning.
Jesus said that as Jonah was in the whale/fish...not that his whole body and soul were in it the whole time. Jonah is at the
end of that time and prays as chapter 1 enters chapter 2. In this prayer Jonah speaks to God not as hear my prayer - but you heard. Jonah is referring to when he had died and gone to
hell-God heard his prayer.
I think it is as a monument to warn the angels and believers that put on eternal life to never sin. It shows what happens to
those that disobey God.
You mentioned the lowest hell as being the lake of fire. I don't
see it as but where chained up wicked angels reside or such.
The lake of fire to me, seems to be located in the land of Edom. It will become burning pitch and brimstone, plus the
people there God will have indigation against forever.
Some people think it is odd for God to eternally punish someone by tormenting them, but I find it odd that He would
have anger against people that had burned as some say to
nothing - or ashes. The people at the end of Isaiah 66 do not
look upon ashes, but carcases where their worm dieth not.
Job told how worms destroy the flesh after one dies.
All flesh shall be at the time of the new earth -abhorred by
these carcases. Daniel 12 uses the word - contempt. It also means - abhorring. The wicked will rise to shame and everlasting contempt.
You do realize don't you, that the author of Ecclesiastes is looking at life on this earth and not life after this life, right? You know the perspective of the flesh not of the spirit? Just saying, these aren't the best passages to make your case because of perspective. this Psalms passage is also talking about flesh perspective...so again not a very good way to make your point.Compare it to the words by Solomon in Ecclesiastes. Solomon
writes to the people as to things done under the sun, under
heaven, by your hand, works. He tells how man has ideas and then dies and his thoughts perish. Solomon also refers to how
every man will be judged according to those works he had done
while under the sun.
no new thing under the sun
Ecclesiastes 9:6
"Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now
perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in
any thing that is done under the sun."
Ecclesiastes 1:11
"There is no remembrance of former things, neither shall
there be remembrance of things that are to come with those
that shall come after."
Ecclesiastes 2:16
"For there is no remembrance of the wise more than of the fool forever..."
Ecclesiastes 2:18
"...I should leave it unto the man that shall be after me."
Psalms 146 tells not to put your trust in princes, nor the son of
man, as when he dies-his thoughts perish.
These are thoughts as to his wishes in this past life, not that
he cannot think after he is dead, as in via his soul lives on.
I was wondering about that, rest was associated with the Sabbath.no, but having no rest kind of does....just saying...
False semantical argument. The smoke is not just any old smoke but "the smoke of their torment" and it ascends for ever and ever. Ordinary smoke does not ascend forever it quickly dissipates. If those being tormented die eventually the torment no longer exists and the smoke is no longer theirs. That the torment lasts forever is emphasized by the words "they have no rest day and night."Which is just semantics, the antecedent of forever here is the smoke not the person being consumed.
I was wondering about that, rest was associated with the Sabbath.
And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.(Hebrews 3:18,19)
Of course the second death cannot be confused with rest but oblivion isn't the same thing either.
Grace and peace,
Mark
I think the point is that in the passage in question they will not have rest day or night...for those who claim that there will be partial consciousness or something like that (in enough pain at the moment I forget the term) this passage would seem to disagree. What is intended by rest we do not know apart from they have none. If we equate rest to the Sabbath, it would be to rest from their labor, or quest for gain, which doesn't seem to fit any of the passages we are talking about.I was wondering about that, rest was associated with the Sabbath.
And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.(Hebrews 3:18,19)
Of course the second death cannot be confused with rest but oblivion isn't the same thing either.
Grace and peace,
Mark
The 5th seal is about God's people desiring justice. The answer is the 6th seal (as you said). Yet, while God purifies this Earth of evil by fire after Christ's return (2 Peter 3:10), that does not mean sin will not exist in the Millennium or that the remaining nations will not be tempted by the devil at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ upon this Earth (Revelation 20:1-9).
Please take note the Bible mentions two different kinds of new heavens and new earths. They are not the same.
New Heavens & New Earth #1
(i.e. the Millennium)
The 1st "New Heavens and New Earth" mentioned in the Old Testament (Isaiah 65:17) and by Peter (2 Peter 3:13) is in reference to the Millennium. The Millennium takes place after Christ returns down from out of the clouds whereby He will destroy the remaining nations that will come up against Him. The Millennium also takes place after the Lord purifies this Earh by fire (which is similar to the global flood but it will leave no trace of this world behind; For not even a McDonald's sign will be accidentally found buried in the Earth. For the Earth's upper crust will be burned or turned into liquid hot magma).
New Heavens & New Earth #2
(Final New Heavens & New Earth)
The second "New Heavens & New Earth" as mentioned in Revelation 21:1 comes at the end of the Millennium and after the Judgment and eradication of evil. Satan, his minions, and wicked sinners will be no more. So when all evil comes to end forever, the final "New Heavens & New Earth" will arrive for God's people. This will be an entirely different and new planet whereby this planet will be no more.
Also, back at the 7 year tribulation on this Earth (which is still yet a future event for us after the Pre-Trib Rapture): Well, these saints that were slain or killed for the Word of God and Jesus at the fifth seal are not in caves. They are dead souls crying out for vengeance over how they were murdered (Revelation 6:9-10). Yet, living saints are encouraged to forgive others and to pray and do good towards their enemies.
Anyways, here is a brief chronology of upcoming events:
#1. Pre-Trib Rapture
#2. 7 Year Tribulation
(a) The Day of Lord begins at 6th seal.#3. Earth purified by fire (Conclusion of the Day the Lord)
(b) Christ's return (Armageddon)
(3rd part of the 6th vial)
#4. The Millennium
#5. The Judgment seat of Christ
#6. The Great White Throne Judgment
#7. Eradication of devil, demons, & wicked man
#8. The Final New Heavens & New Earth
As for the verse you are having trouble with: which verse may I ask is it? Maybe I can help.
Previous post:
When does the scripture change which says "they have no rest day nor night?" If those being tormented are annihilated at some point the smoke is no longer theirs. After 1000s of years that verse will still read the same. "the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night,"
I agree, but if we take a balanced approach, what we know from this is that the fire is not what we think of as fire being that the smoke continues for ever and ever. I'm trying to look at it objectively, that is without a biased understanding based on a careful study of the whole of scripture. IOW's I'm trying to see with a different perspective and I still come to the same conclusion no matter how much I try to see this as otherwise. where I can give points to the passage talking about the smoke going on forever I cannot ignore that there is no rest day and night. Likewise I cannot ignore that the smoke is different than our version of a fire.False semantical argument. The smoke is not just any old smoke but "the smoke of their torment" and it ascends for ever and ever. Ordinary smoke does not ascend forever it quickly dissipates. If those being tormented die eventually the torment no longer exists and the smoke is no longer theirs. That the torment lasts forever is emphasized by the words "they have no rest day and night."
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