The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

Bible Highlighter · Sep 14, 2016

Der Alter said:
Previous post
"Still expecting a man who said he was being tormented in flames to think and respond logically and rationally.
Jesus said that the wicked, wherever they were, would be wailing and gnashing their teeth, six times in Matt. and one time in Luk."

It still doesn't explain how the rich-man is able to even to have a conversation over his intense pain of being engulfed in flames, though.
Again, if somebody in the real world was engulfed in flames I don't think you would be able to carry on a conversation with them all too well. They would be too busy screaming to hear you.

Der Altar said:
Deuteronomy 32:35 To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.
Deuteronomy 32:41 If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me.
Deuteronomy 32:43 Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people.
Isaiah 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
Isaiah 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Nowhere am I against God judging the wicked. I believe there is an actual hell and it is a really bad prison and not a torture chamber. I also believe the wicked will be judged by God and cast into the Lake of Fire whereby they will be destroyed or annihiated for their crimes or sins. Will some suffer longer than others in the Lake of Fire if their sins are more intense than others? Yes, I believe it is possible, but God will still be fair and just in doing this. Nobody will get away with their sin. Nobody will get out until they are paid up to the last penny.

...

pat34lee · Sep 14, 2016

I didn't read through the whole 32 pages, so this could have been covered before.

I see two main problems with eternal hell for all sinners.
The main problem is that eternal life is a gift from Yahweh, not a judgment. John 3:16
Second, why would Jesus mention that both body and soul can be destroyed? Matt. 10:28

Most people thrown into hell will go pfzzt and burn up.

Der Alte · Sep 14, 2016

mmksparbud said:
That's what I mean. Those that believe in an immortal soul, will say the word soul does not mean a person, except when it suits them and they claim context.
When we do the same thing, and say soul does mean a person and claim context, you guys will say were wrong, it doesn't mean that.

Since you ignored most of my 2 previous posts, I will return the favor. To your blanket objection my response; when I cite context, I show how the context supports my premise. I don't just say context. Perhaps you missed that explanation or did you just ignore it? In my previous post I quoted a few of the 333 verses where nephesh is not translated "soul." In two vss. nephesh is translated life, one says "the nephesh is the blood." The other "the blood of your nephesh." Does a "soul" have blood?

I say the soul that sinneth will die, you say that means a person. When I quote
Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
You still do not believe that Jesus meant the soul will be destroyed even though it says both body and soul. Context is what you claim it to be. I know the word soul can have different meanings. I also have looked up Hebrew and Greek meanings--that is why I believe the way I do. The Hebrew can be incredibly complex, and very different in concept from our modern ideas. . .

I read Hebrew and I am aware that it can be incredibly complex that is why quoted the Hebrew and found verses where the Hebrew was not translated "soul."
As I said what God created He is able to destroy but I do not know of a single verse which states that any souls have been or will be destroyed.

mark kennedy · Sep 14, 2016

Achilles6129 said:
Hi Mark - you're forgetting Rev. 14:10-11:

"10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed [f]in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and [g]brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and [h]whoever receives the mark of his name.”" Rev. 14:10-11 (NASB)

And also Matthew 25:

"41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;...46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”" Mt. 25:41...46 (NASB)

No I didn't, the smoke of there torment in the place prepared for the devil and his angels doesn't mean they suffer forever.

mark kennedy · Sep 14, 2016

Jason0047 said:
Yeah, you really didn't address the morality of the issue of justice in original post, though. You just are saying that the wicked are childs of satan, etc. Is that the crime? Does not one's actions determine who they are? If so, then surely there should be fair justice or punishment to punish each and everyone sin a person commits and no more. Because to punish somebody beyond what the crime calls for is unjust. But I am not so sure you understand in what I am talking about, though. You believe this is what God's church believes. The morality behind it is a mystery; And it should not be questioned. Hence, why I did not reply to your other post to me. For would you really be convinced different of your position if you were to truly discover that the Scriptures taught contrary to what you believe? Would you truly believe differently if a real world example (parable) were to tell you that your belief was morally wrong?

...

Who says it's about punishment anyway, we are talking about threads absolutely reprobate possible, incapable of remorse, repentance. Parents punish their children because they want them to behave. Isaiah start his book of with why should I beat you any more your covered in wells and bruises and just getting worse. What is the point of punishing them now? They are lost forever.

Der Alte · Sep 14, 2016

Jason0047 said:
It still doesn't explain how the rich-man is able to even to have a conversation over his intense pain of being engulfed in flames, though.
Again, if somebody in the real world was engulfed in flames I don't think you would be able to carry on a conversation with them all too well. They would be too busy screaming to hear you.

The scripture states that the man cried out "I am tormented in this flame." Was he tormented in flames or not? Do you think this is some kind of figurative language? Some try to dismiss Luk 16:19-31 as a parable but in all the accepted parables Jesus uses real life events to illustrate unknown or misunderstood Biblical truths a shepherd, a widow, landowners, a wayward son etc. What are the real world elements of Lazarus and the rich man?

Nowhere am I against God judging the wicked. I believe there is an actual hell and it is a really bad prison and not a torture chamber. I also believe the wicked will be judged by God and cast into the Lake of Fire whereby they will be destroyed or annihiated for their crimes or sins. Will some suffer longer than others in the Lake of Fire if their sins are more intense than others? Yes, I believe it is possible, but God will still be fair and just in doing this. Nobody will get away with their sin. Nobody will get out until they are paid up to the last penny. ...

.....But you get to apply your finite, imperfect reasoning to decide what is and is not fair according to God who is perfect and infinite? Did Jesus teach that the punishment of the wicked was outright annihilation or annihilation after an indeterminate period in some place of punishment? What did Jesus teach?
.....As for not getting out until the last penny is paid. None of the parables are exactly like the kingdom of God. Is the judgment of mankind exactly like your proof text? Will mankind be hauled to the judge then delivered to the officer by the judge, then cast into prison by the officer? Not according to Matthew 25:46.

Der Alte · Sep 14, 2016

mark kennedy said:
No I didn't, the smoke of there torment in the place prepared for the devil and his angels doesn't mean they suffer forever.

When does the scripture change which says "they have no rest day nor night?" If those being tormented are annihilated at some point the smoke is no longer theirs. After 1000s of years that verse will still read the same. "the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night,"

Hillsage · Sep 14, 2016

Butch5 said:
Hillsage,

This passage is not defined. What did God mean when He said that? What does it mean to be made in the image of God?

Regarding God, my understanding fits perfectly with Scripture. We are told what a living soul is when it is used of man and that includes a flesh body. However, we see that Adam didn't become a living soul until God breathed the breath or spirit of life into him. The word soul is used in the Scriptures of living beings. It's also used in the abstract of life.

19 "Indeed now, your servant has found favor in your sight, and you have increased your mercy which you have shown me by saving my life; but I cannot escape to the mountains, lest some evil overtake me and I die. (Gen. 19:19 NKJ)

The word life here is soul. God is the source of "ALL" life. In Scripture we find that God is spirit or breath. Breath is life. The point of being a soul is that it is living. Adam wasn't a soul until he received the breath or spirit of life from God. So, God being called a soul doesn't necessitate that God has a flesh body. We are talking about man and what he is.

Your 'theory' is pretty accepted, but just not supportable to me for a number of reasons. One being based upon scripture, but another one being based upon one schooled in medical physiology. I'd like to know how your 'theory' explains the autorhythmic phemonenon of the heart. If it could, then we might have some talking points, but it doesn't. Unless you know something I don't, that is. So tell me, how does your view support the physiological law established of God that a human heart starts beating even before the brain (soul) has begun to function? My spirit, soul, body POV does explain it.

mmksparbud · Sep 14, 2016

Der Alter said:
Since you ignored most of my 2 previous posts, I will return the favor. To your blanket objection my response; when I cite context, I show how the context supports my premise. I don't just say context. Perhaps you missed that explanation or did you just ignore it? In my previous post I quoted a few of the 333 verses where nephesh is not translated "soul." In two vss. nephesh is translated life, one says "the nephesh is the blood." The other "the blood of your nephesh." Does a "soul" have blood?

I read Hebrew and I am aware that it can be incredibly complex that is why quoted the Hebrew and found verses where the Hebrew was not translated "soul."
As I said what God created He is able to destroy but I do not know of a single verse which states that any souls have been or will be destroyed.

LOL---I didn't ignore. It's just that what am I supposed to say when I already know that the word soul has many meanings and I have already understood all those verses you quoted. But if you wish to ignore my post--that's I ok. My questions haven't been answered anyways. I have yet to see one verse that says that we have an immortal soul. I didn't expect an answer to the part about Adam getting his soul at the time God berthed into him, it is the same word as the word for the other creatures. And I asked before. Since they all got the same breath of life from God, are all living things possessed of an immortal soul?

Bible Highlighter · Sep 14, 2016

Der Alter said:
The scripture states that the man cried out "I am tormented in this flame." Was he tormented in flames or not? Do you think this is some kind of figurative language? Some try to dismiss Luk 16:19-31 as a parable but in all the accepted parables Jesus uses real life events to illustrate unknown or misunderstood Biblical truths a shepherd, a widow, landowners, a wayward son etc. What are the real world elements of Lazarus and the rich man?

The richman cried out because Abraham was on the other side of the great gulf and he obviously wanted to gain his attention and be heard. It does not say he cried out in pain or that he was screaming or anything. You have to add that to the text (Which is not there).

Also, in verse 24, the rich-man says,

"...for I am tormented in this flame" (Luke 16:24).

Is it a coincidence that the first appearance of the English word "this" in the Bible is used in such a way as a reference to somebody in front of them?

"And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man" (Genesis 2:23).

Obviously Adam was not talking about his own flesh and bones alone but he was referring to Eve who was in front of him. In other words, the first appearance of the word "this" in the Bible was used in such a way that refers to something or someone in front of the individual speaking. This is rather interesting. For it is just as possible that the rich-man could have been referring to a flame that was in front of him. "This" flame (that was in front of him) would have logically been in the great gulf fixed between him and Abraham. For hell is described as an island in Scripture.

Der Alter said:
But you get to apply your finite, imperfect reasoning to decide what is and is not fair according to God who is perfect and infinite?

Finite imperfect reasoning? I do not see anywhere in Scripture whereby God's people had any trouble trying to explain God's good ways or fair justice. Surely the issue of debate would have been brought up at some point in the Scriptures of the New Testament, but we do not see anything about it. That is because most believers or followers of Christ perfectly understood that there was no Eternal Torment back then. They did not have to explain the obvious injustice behind such a concept or belief.

God is not the author of confusion. His good ways and fair judgments can be explained.

Der Altar said:
Did Jesus teach that the punishment of the wicked was outright annihilation or annihilation after an indeterminate period in some place of punishment? What did Jesus teach?

Yes. Jesus said fear not the one who can destroy the body, but fear the one who can destroy both the body and the soul in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire) (Matthew 10:28). If the destruction of the body is referring to the end of one's physical body, then it is logical to assume that the body and soul in the following words is referring to a complete destruction, as well.

Der Altar said:
.....As for not getting out until the last penny is paid. None of the parables are exactly like the kingdom of God.

Parables or real world examples (physical truth) are about illustrating spiritual truth. For example: The Cannaanite woman was able to expound upon Jesus's parable with a parable of her own (that complimented Jesus's parable). Did Jesus criticize her? No. He commended her for her great faith in making a real world example or physical truth, which lines up with spiritual truth. She said even the dogs eat the crumbs from the table. This is a physical truth. Yet, it illustrates also a spiritual reality or truth, as well. The fact, that ECT cannot be made into a real world parable should give you pause. Anyways, paying up to the last penny is talking about fair justice. We know God is fair in what He does.

Der Altar said:
Is the judgment of mankind exactly like your proof text? Will mankind be hauled to the judge then delivered to the officer by the judge, then cast into prison by the officer? Not according to Matthew 25:46.

But what type of everlasting punishment is being referred to in Matthew 25:46?

2 Thessalonians 1:9 gives us the answer. For it says,

"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power." (2 Thessalonians 1:9).

Everlasting destruction. That is the everlasting punishment that is being referred to here. Destruction. When I destroy something it meets destruction. It is ruined, and made into something that it wasn't before.

...

Der Alte · Sep 14, 2016

mmksparbud said:
LOL---I didn't ignore. It's just that what am I supposed to say when I already know that the word soul has many meanings and I have already understood all those verses you quoted. But if you wish to ignore my post--that's I ok.

Then that is what you should have said responding to that post. While you claim to know that nephesh has meanings other than "soul" you insist that it must mean soul in your proof text Ezekiel 18:18-20.

My questions haven't been answered anyways. I have yet to see one verse that says that we have an immortal soul. I didn't expect an answer to the part about Adam getting his soul at the time God berthed into him, it is the same word as the word for the other creatures. And I asked before. Since they all got the same breath of life from God, are all living things possessed of an immortal soul?

Whether animals are "living souls" is of little interest to me.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 14, 2016

mark kennedy said:
Who says it's about punishment anyway, we are talking about threads absolutely reprobate possible, incapable of remorse, repentance. Parents punish their children because they want them to behave. Isaiah start his book of with why should I beat you any more your covered in wells and bruises and just getting worse. What is the point of punishing them now? They are lost forever.

Well, there is the matter of answering for their sin. I can see the possibility of punishing them for the crimes they did here. But it would obviously be fair and just (until the last penny was paid). It's why the dead saints cry out for vengeance who were slain for the Word of God at the breaking of the 5th seal. It's about justice. Not unfair justice like Eternal Torment. Fair justice (whereby they will get the punishment befitting of their crimes or sins).

...

mmksparbud · Sep 14, 2016

Der Alter said:
Then that is what you should have said responding to that post. While you claim to know that nephesh has meanings other than "soul" you insist that it must mean soul in your proof text Ezekiel 18:18-20.

Whether animals are "living souls" is of little interest to me.

Yes, that certainly answers the question. You have no interest in the subject---what a wonderful way to avoid the question. But you want to believe that the same breath of life gave Adam an immortal soul---but still I am waiting for the verse that says we have an immortal soul.

mark kennedy · Sep 14, 2016

Der Alter said:
When does the scripture change which says "they have no rest day nor night?" If those being tormented are annihilated at some point the smoke is no longer theirs. After 1000s of years that verse will still read the same. "the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night,"

Which is just semantics, the antecedent of forever here is the smoke not the person being consumed.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 14, 2016

mmksparbud said:
Yes, that certainly answers the question. You have no interest in the subject---what a wonderful way to avoid the question. But you want to believe that the same breath of life gave Adam an immortal soul---but still I am waiting for the verse that says we have an immortal soul.

We are in agreement on the most important issue that Eternal Torment is morally wrong. That is why I am so happy to talk with you as a fellow soldier in Christ.

As for the soul: I believe after death it is immortal because it needs to be destroyed by Jesus Christ (Matthew 10:28).

As for the body: That is not immortal unless Jesus were to give that person immortality or eternal life by giving them a newly resurrected body in His likeness.

Anyways, while we may not agree on this point about the soul, it does not change my view that you are a dear fellow sister in Christ to me.

Anyways, please be well.
And may God bless you greatly tonight.

...

Hillsage · Sep 14, 2016

mmksparbud said:
Please give a reference where any description, definition of image, likeness means to be the exact same thing as the original.
Eveything says it means
im·age
[ˈimij]
likeness · resemblance · depiction · portrayal ·
representation · statue · statuette · sculpture · bust · effigy · painting · picture · portrait · drawing · sketch

a visible impression obtained by a camera, telescope, microscope, or other device, or displayed on a computer or video screen.
synonyms: picture · photograph · snapshot · photo

an optical appearance or counterpart produced by light or other radiation from an object reflected in a mirror or refracted through a lens.
synonyms: reflection · mirror image · likeness

mathematics
a point or set formed by mapping from another point or set.

computing
an exact copy of a computer's hard disk, made for backing up data or setting up new machines.

a mental representation or idea:
"he had an image of Uncle Walter throwing his crutches away"
synonyms: conception · impression · idea · perception ·
notion · mental picture · vision · character · reputation · appearance · semblance

a person or thing that closely resembles another:
"he's the image of his father"
synonyms: double · living image · look-alike · clone · copy ·
twin · duplicate · exact likeness · mirror image · doppelgänger · spitting image · dead ringer · carbon copy · similitude

a simile or metaphor:
"he uses the image of a hole to describe emotional emptiness"
synonyms: simile · metaphor · metonymy · figure of speech · trope ·
turn of phrase · imagery

the general impression that a person, organization, or product presents to the public:
"she strives to project an image of youth"
synonyms: public perception · persona · profile · reputation · stature ·
standing · face · front · facade · mask · guise

semblance or likeness:
"we are made in the image of God"

(in biblical use) an idol.
synonyms: idol · icon · fetish · totem

VERB

make a representation of the external form of:
"artworks that imaged women's bodies"

A painting can look very real, but it is not made up of the same as the original and is not--it represents the original, it is not equal to. I've said before, Ken and Barbie are made in our image, they are not equal to us, they are not the same thing. They have sock monkeys, teddy bears, stuff animals of all sorts that are in the image of the original--00but they are nowhere near being the same nor made of the same thing nor act in the same manner. Robots. no matter how closely they resemble us,, are still not human. This is a Japanese, like-life Robot---it is still not human. This is an image of the robot, which is made in the image of a Japanese woman-- None of which is an actual Japanese womanView attachment 182557

I'll hang my hat on my understanding of the scriptures.

If you meet my son and say 'he is the spitting IMAGE of me'; will you be looking at his spirit or soul? Or will you be looking at a body with hair eyeballs and teeth? If you meet my son and say 'he acts just 'LIKE' me'; will you be basing that upon his body, and its 'physical attributes'? or his spirit/soul 'character attributes'? The word for "likeness" concerning God is defined more than one way. Adverbially it is "LIKE".

"GOD IS SPIRIT" and the only part of your image/substance, made in his image, is your 'spirit'. A spirit which must be 'born again' I might add. BORN AGAIN because it was born of GOD the first time, because scripture says "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." Your spirit never came from your parents, it came from God. And as for your dictionary definitions they simply do not explain for me, people pursuing "after the likeness of God". If Adam and Eve were made 'like God', then they never would have sinned. But they weren't the character "likeness of God", and they knew it. That's why the temptation of the devil was "don't you know you'll be LIKE God, knowing good from evil." They wanted to be 'like God', just like our little children want to be like 'mommy and daddy' until they rebel.

If this doesn't make sense to you then we're probably done talking. This thread is taking too much of my time.

mmksparbud · Sep 14, 2016

Well, than we're probably done talking for we are as different from being God as Ken and Barbie are from being just like us. There are so many Christians that say we are descendent from apes ( am not one) and that insisted we do indeed look like them. I posted this on thst thread.

They insist the similarities are striking.

Hillsage · Sep 14, 2016

Achilles6129 said:
The fire described in Scripture inflicts punishment. How does that "make things pure"? Where does God say that his fire is going to make the wicked "pure"?

We're talking about 'character' issues. Does punishment of children help purify their character?

Actually, the Greek word for fire is "pyr," not "pur":

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G4442&t=NASB

And the English pure is from Latin according to the dictionary:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pure

Don't know what to tell you other than 'dueling sources;;

http://biblehub.com/greek/4442.htm

Strong's Greek: 4442. πῦρ (pur) -- fire - Bible Hub
Original Word: πῦρ, πυρός, τό. Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter Transliteration: pur. Phonetic Spelling: (poor)

And, according to my source the Latin purus derived from the Greek pyr/pur.

Etymology of pure « English Words of (Unexpected) Greek Origin.
https://ewonago.wordpress.com/2009/03/07/etymology-of-pure/
Mar 7, 2009 - Etymology of pure. Pure comes from the Latin purus, which derives from the Greek pyr/pur (fire, πύρ; gen: puros, πυρός), as initially fire was ...

The "saving fire" of 1 Cor. 3:15 applies to someone who's already saved:

Doesn't matter, what matters is the principle of what we're talking about. And that principle is, that the "saving fire" is purgative and allows all that is not 'of God', in this "already saved" person, to be dealt with before he can go to heaven.

You have to lay the foundation of Jesus Christ first. Then you built upon it. The wicked never had the foundation of Jesus Christ, so none of this applies to them.

Tell that to God. It was He who didn't "predestine, draw, call and ordain to believe" in this age. And it will be Him who gives them 'their first chance' to do so in the ages to come. And they 'WILL do His will' then, just like 'we do His WILL' in coming to Him in this age.

I did answer your question. It's obviously something like literal fire or else the word "fire" wouldn't be used. And in Acts, there did in fact appear to be flames of literal fire over them.

But you just said in your first sentence that the fire described in scripture inflicts punishment. So why were the disciples being punished with literal fire for receiving the Holy Spirit? What sense does that make to you?

But why would it matter? I mean, if you're going to take the fire in the lake of fire as figurative, then obviously it still resembles literal fire in some fashion. So I really just don't understand the point.

I already dealt with that. It does what fire is often used for in a positive way....purification.

And what was 'punishing' about the flaming bush of God, which Moses encountered? A bush where God said "Take off your shoes. Why? I think it's because the fire of God MAKES HOLY.

ACT 7:33 And the Lord said to him, 'Take off the shoes from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.

If you just want the fire of God to torture, then we simply serve a different view of the eternal character of God.

mark kennedy · Sep 14, 2016

Jason0047 said:
Well, there is the matter of answering for their sin. I can see the possibility of punishing them for the crimes they did here. But it would obviously be fair and just (until the last penny was paid). It's why the dead saints cry out for vengeance who were slain for the Word of God at the breaking of the 5th seal. It's about justice. Not unfair justice like Eternal Torment. Fair justice (whereby they will get the punishment befitting of their crimes or sins).

...

Its not just retribution, God is eliminating evil completely once and forever. Take those seals in context. The first rider is the world conquerer, followed by world war, famine and plague. This is a bloody infamous rampage. They are avenged in the sixth plague and hid beneath the earth, caves and dens of the rocks. Apparently it's like Pharoh hardening his heart at first and God hardening Pharohs heart later. Like the Canaanites gettin hundreds of years for their iniquity to come to fruition. The armies of the antichrist never repent but many during that time will, its the whole point.

There can be no question that they deserve it but in the end perdition is about ending evil forever. Now we can say its a permanent condition of torment or annilation but to what end would they survive for all eternity? Again it's the paradox of a stone God makes that's too big for him to pick up. Surely if its in God's power to create from nothing it's within his capacity to reduce to nothing. Or is it?

I'm hung up on one verse describing the torment lasting forever. I am looking at annilation for a lot of the same reasons I hold to an ex nihleo (out of nothing) creation. In a word, omnipotence.

Grace and peace,
Mark

mark kennedy · Sep 14, 2016

Double post, my bad.

The Doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Messianic

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Natura non facit saltum

Natura non facit saltum

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

One 4 Him & Him 4 all

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Natura non facit saltum

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

One 4 Him & Him 4 all

Well-Known Member

One 4 Him & Him 4 all

Natura non facit saltum

Natura non facit saltum

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