The Doctrine of Baptisms.

[Bible Highlighter]

Sorry to butt into this argument - but modern Greek and NT koine Greek are not at all the same.
It is not necessary to learn modern Greek, to the point of being fluent in it, before you tackle koine Greek. There are many books and college classes which teach it. I know the alphabet at least, yet I haven't learnt modern Greek. My nephews, who started learning modern Greek when they were 5, have no idea about - and no interest in - NT Greek.

You might as well tell a Frenchman that if he is going to move to the UK, he will need to learn Welsh first, and only then will he be able to learn English.

Knowing Modern Greek should be the first step when learning Koine Greek (or Ancient Greek) for several reasons:

1. Shared Vocabulary: Modern Greek and Koine Greek share a significant amount of vocabulary. While pronunciation and some grammatical elements have evolved, many words remain similar or recognizable. This familiarity can help learners build their vocabulary more quickly.

2. Pronunciation: Understanding Modern Greek pronunciation can provide a foundation for Koine Greek pronunciation. Though the pronunciation of Koine Greek may have differed in some aspects, a grasp of Modern Greek pronunciation can help learners read Koine Greek aloud more accurately.

3. Grammatical Structures: Modern Greek retains some grammatical structures found in Koine Greek, such as the case system and verb conjugations. Familiarity with these elements can make it easier to grasp Koine Greek grammar.

4. Cultural Context: Learning Modern Greek can help learners connect with the modern Greek culture and context, which can enhance their understanding of the historical and cultural background of Koine Greek texts.

5. Language Learning Skills: Gaining proficiency in one language often improves your overall language learning skills. Learning Modern Greek can help develop skills in vocabulary acquisition, grammar understanding, and language structure analysis, which are transferable to the study of Koine Greek.

6. Resources and Learning Materials: Modern Greek has more readily available learning resources and materials, including textbooks, courses, and language apps. These resources can supplement the study of Koine Greek and provide additional practice and support.

7. Communication: Knowing Modern Greek allows you to communicate with modern Greek speakers, which can be beneficial if you plan to travel to Greece or interact with Greek speakers in any context. It can also create opportunities for language exchange or conversation practice.

8. Flexibility: Knowledge of Modern Greek makes you more versatile in your language abilities. You can communicate in both the modern and ancient variants of the language, allowing you to engage with a broader range of texts and historical periods.

9. Enhanced Appreciation: Learning Modern Greek alongside Koine Greek can deepen your appreciation of the historical development of the language and how it has evolved over time. This broader perspective can enrich your understanding of both linguistic and cultural history.​

For example: Would you expect somebody to fully know 1600’s English without knowing Modern English? I would say thee nay.
In other words, would you go to Ethiopia to get an Ethiopian to Chinese dictionary learn Chinese? Or, would you immerse yourself in the culture of China and talk to real people who actually know Chinese in order to learn Chinese? That’s what dumb when folks think they can learn a dead language without even studying its Modern counterpart. I would say they failed before they even began if they say they Kione Greek. Why? One of the top Greek grammarians in the world says there is a solecism in the text if 1 John 5:7 is removed. This is a guy who knows how to speak, write, and read Modern Greek. It’s his language. But you get some guy in some Theology school who does not know how to even order a pizza in Greek fooling us that he knows Koine Greek. Yeah, right. He is skipping a step and it is so obviously dumb it is beyond words to even say. But you are free to your opinion of course.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sorry amigo I ain't searching anything.

When we claim that we do not need to search anything, this tells me that a person has stopped learning. Are you claiming you know so much that you do not need to search anything out anymore? The Bible is a deep book, and the ancient Greek is a deep language.

I don't see any credible, verifiable evidence for any of the negative accusations you are making. As I said I started learning modern Greek decades before I studied koine. Since you are not native Greek you do not have the knowledge necessary for the arguments you are proposing. Come back when you can match the education I have had.

You are boasting in your knowledge. Boasting in anything is never good. Do you think you are one of the top Greek grammarians or Greek linguists in the world? How many Greek books have you read? How many Greek written works have you written? How many Greek people do you speak with on a regular basis? Do you think you can teach people in Greece the advanced stages of their grammar and how their language evolved over the years?

Here is 1 John 5:7-8 from the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible. Their language has been Greek since their inception 2000 years ago +/-.

7There are three who bear witness <in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. And there are three that testify on earth>: 8the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and the three agree as one.​

The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The New Testament (The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible)

archive.org

So you are not claiming the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus texts are not older and better and the Textus Receptus is more reliable? If so, that’s good. The Orthodox Church sticks with the Textus Receptus in practice and while they do not fully understand why, they do so nonetheless (Which I believe benefits more than they realize).

 

[Der Alte]

When we claim that we do not need to search anything, this tells me that a person has stopped learning. Are you claiming you know so much that you do not need to search anything out anymore? The Bible is a deep book, and the ancient Greek is a deep language.

Please do not even think about lecturing me on Greek unless you have a Phd/Thd. Also don't misrepresent anything I say. If you intend to convey to me something some scholar said somewhere please quote them exactly and fully cite the source.

You are boasting in your knowledge. Boasting in anything is never good. Do you think you are one of the top Greek grammarians or Greek linguists in the world? How many Greek books have you read? How many Greek written works have you written? How many Greek people do you speak with on a regular basis? Do you think you can teach people in Greece the advanced stages of their grammar and how their language evolved over the years?

Again I do not boast. I inform. I have made no claims to be expert in Greek but I am certain I have more education in the area than you do.

So you are not claiming the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus texts are not older and better and the Textus Receptus is more reliable? If so, that’s good. The Orthodox Church sticks with the Textus Receptus in practice and while they do not fully understand why, they do so nonetheless (Which I believe benefits more than they realize).

I have never mentioned any ancient Greek texts so your questions are presumptive and out-of-order. Your comments on the Orthodox Greek church are out-of-order. In the future if you wish to demean any source please quote some acknowledged scholars. I'm not interested in the unsupported opinions of every anonymous poster here. Also please confine your comments to the sources and not my qualifications.

 

[Der Alte]

Knowing Modern Greek should be the first step when learning Koine Greek (or Ancient Greek) for several reasons:

1. Shared Vocabulary: Modern Greek and Koine Greek share a significant amount of vocabulary. While pronunciation and some grammatical elements have evolved, many words remain similar or recognizable. This familiarity can help learners build their vocabulary more quickly.​

​

2. Pronunciation: Understanding Modern Greek pronunciation can provide a foundation for Koine Greek pronunciation. Though the pronunciation of Koine Greek may have differed in some aspects, a grasp of Modern Greek pronunciation can help learners read Koine Greek aloud more accurately.​

​

3. Grammatical Structures: Modern Greek retains some grammatical structures found in Koine Greek, such as the case system and verb conjugations. Familiarity with these elements can make it easier to grasp Koine Greek grammar.​

​

4. Cultural Context: Learning Modern Greek can help learners connect with the modern Greek culture and context, which can enhance their understanding of the historical and cultural background of Koine Greek texts.​

​

5. Language Learning Skills: Gaining proficiency in one language often improves your overall language learning skills. Learning Modern Greek can help develop skills in vocabulary acquisition, grammar understanding, and language structure analysis, which are transferable to the study of Koine Greek.​

​

6. Resources and Learning Materials: Modern Greek has more readily available learning resources and materials, including textbooks, courses, and language apps. These resources can supplement the study of Koine Greek and provide additional practice and support.​

​

7. Communication: Knowing Modern Greek allows you to communicate with modern Greek speakers, which can be beneficial if you plan to travel to Greece or interact with Greek speakers in any context. It can also create opportunities for language exchange or conversation practice.​

​

8. Flexibility: Knowledge of Modern Greek makes you more versatile in your language abilities. You can communicate in both the modern and ancient variants of the language, allowing you to engage with a broader range of texts and historical periods.​

​

9. Enhanced Appreciation: Learning Modern Greek alongside Koine Greek can deepen your appreciation of the historical development of the language and how it has evolved over time. This broader perspective can enrich your understanding of both linguistic and cultural history.​

For example: Would you expect somebody to fully know 1600’s English without knowing Modern English? I would say thee nay.
In other words, would you go to Ethiopia to get an Ethiopian to Chinese dictionary learn Chinese? Or, would you immerse yourself in the culture of China and talk to real people who actually know Chinese in order to learn Chinese? That’s what dumb when folks think they can learn a dead language without even studying its Modern counterpart. I would say they failed before they even began if they say they Kione Greek. Why? One of the top Greek grammarians in the world says there is a solecism in the text if 1 John 5:7 is removed. This is a guy who knows how to speak, write, and read Modern Greek. It’s his language. But you get some guy in some Theology school who does not know how to even order a pizza in Greek fooling us that he knows Koine Greek. Yeah, right. He is skipping a step and it is so obviously dumb it is beyond words to even say. But you are free to your opinion of course.

Moderately interesting copy/paste from some unidentified source. The unsupported opinions of unidentified scholars are no more compelling than the scribblings on a public facility wall. If there is a supposed grammatical error in the Bible it should be fully explained and supported.

 

[Strong in Him]

Knowing Modern Greek should be the first step when learning Koine Greek (or Ancient Greek) for several reasons:

1. Shared Vocabulary: Modern Greek and Koine Greek share a significant amount of vocabulary. While pronunciation and some grammatical elements have evolved, many words remain similar or recognizable. This familiarity can help learners build their vocabulary more quickly.​

In your opinion. But many people have learnt koine Greek without first learning modern Greek.

If I remember correctly, you said that you don't speak Greek at all - so why are you now instructing people on the best way to learn it?

But you get some guy in some Theology school who does not know how to even order a pizza in Greek fooling us that he knows Koine Greek. Yeah, right. He is skipping a step and it is so obviously dumb it is beyond words to even say.

You may have someone who is able to read the NT in the language it was written, and you're sneering at them because they could not order a pizza in (modern) Greek?
It is your opinion that he is "skipping a step".

I suspect this has all arisen because someone has challenged your beloved KJV. There is no way you will ever admit that it is less than perfect - so the only thing you can do is to challenge, and throw doubt on, the original language or those who understand it.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Please do not even think about lecturing me on Greek unless you have a Phd/Thd.

Fancy titles do not mean anything if you cannot teach Greek people grammar rules and how to increase the proper ways to speak and write Greek.

Also don't misrepresent anything I say. If you intend to convey to me something some scholar said somewhere please quote them exactly and fully cite the source.

If I misrepresented something you said, please feel free to post the words where I did that and I will apologize.

Again I do not boast.

Uh, too late. You already did back in post #32, and by boasting you have a Phd/Thd in post #43.

I inform. I have made no claims to be expert in Greek but I am certain I have more education in the area than you do.

God does not require us to learn the ancient languages in order to understand what He said in His Word.
God reveals things by His Spirit, and by comparing Scripture with Scripture.
Remember, Jesus called simple men like Peter who was a fishermen. Jesus did not require His disciples to be scribes (scholars).

I have never mentioned any ancient Greek texts so your questions are presumptive and out-of-order. Your comments on the Orthodox Greek church are out-of-order.

You brought up the Greek Orthodox reading on 1 John 5:7. So no. I was replying to what you said. If you boast in their reading, then there is an underlying text that favors that reading.

In the future if you wish to demean any source please quote some acknowledged scholars.

Why would I do that if Jesus said beware of the scribes, which are scholars?

I'm not interested in the unsupported opinions of every anonymous poster here.

But this is what you have to face if you post here. Also, did you ever consider that others may feel the same way about you?
At the end of the day, what matters is if a person is believing God’s Word as they are plainly written.
While I believe looking to the original languages can be done only as a last resort, looking to the original languages as if that is the normal way of understanding the Bible is a deception. Why? Well, because one does not read the Bible cover to cover that way and one does not have an apostle Paul, or a Moses to help them with their original language studies.

Also please confine your comments to the sources and not my qualifications.

It has nothing to do with your qualifications. It has to do with whether or not our faith is easily duplicatable. Do we really expect everyone we bring to the faith to be a scholar clone? I don’t think God requires that of us and neither does He require those to follow scholars to get the secrets of God’s Word. 1 John 2 says a person can have the Anointing whereby they do not need any man to teach them. This is where it is at for all men and women of God. They can know God’s Word by asking God and accepting plainly what God’s Word says on the page. There is no need to go to a language with years of study to unlock what God actually said.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Moderately interesting copy/paste from some unidentified source.

Open AI (ChatGPT).
If you ever used it, the answers are based on things that it gathers from the internet.
But if you disagree, feel free to refute the points and offer verifiable proof text sources.
But I am not expecting you to do that because that would be speaking against logic or truth (Which would be exceptionally difficult).

The unsupported opinions of unidentified scholars are no more compelling than the scribblings on a public facility wall.

Scholars do not always even agree with each other. So why should I trust everything that they say? Their ramblings have been proven wrong many times. I see it all the time.

If there is a supposed grammatical error in the Bible it should be fully explained and supported.

God cannot error. What He says is always pure and true and correct.

 

[Aaron112]

(Hebrews 6:2)

ERV
So we should be finished with the beginning lessons about Christ. We should not have to keep going back to where we started. We began our new life by turning away from the evil we did in the past and by believing in God. That’s when we were taught about baptisms, laying hands on people, the resurrection of those who have died, and the final judgment. Now we need to go forward to more mature teaching.

PHILLIPS
Let us leave behind the elementary teaching about Christ and go forward to adult understanding. Let us not lay over and over again the foundation truths—repentance from the deeds which led to death, believing in God, baptism and laying-on of hands, belief in the life to come and the final judgment. No, if God allows, let us go on.

MSG
So come on, let’s leave the preschool fingerpainting exercises on Christ and get on with the grand work of art. Grow up in Christ. The basic foundational truths are in place: turning your back on “salvation by self-help” and turning in trust toward God; baptismal instructions; laying on of hands; resurrection of the dead; eternal judgment. God helping us, we’ll stay true to all that. But there’s so much more. Let’s get on with it!

 

[Aaron112]

God does not require us to learn the ancient languages in order to understand what He said in His Word.
God reveals things by His Spirit, and by comparing Scripture with Scripture.
Remember, Jesus called simple men like Peter who was a fishermen. Jesus did not require His disciples to be scribes (scholars).

The Father chooses ones who are like little children .... cool!

 

[Aaron112]

Scholars did not even agree with each other. So why should I trust everything that they say? Their ramblings have been proven wrong many times. I see it all the time.

Indeed... why should you trust anything they say ?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In your opinion. But many people have learnt koine Greek without first learning modern Greek.

I am not sure you are thinking correctly here. If you were to study a book on Chinese and then you go to China, you do not think that you would not make any mistakes speaking and or writing to them? There are even different dialects in different regions in certain countries and so this complicates this even more. I say this because there is a difference between studying a book vs. practical experience. There is even slang or metaphor that needs to be learned in a country, as well. This is not always evident in book like study. Again, I think you are putting the scholars up really high on a pedestal and ignoring how learning languages actually works. Schools are basically in it for the money, and they really do not care if you learn the language properly by going to that actual country and immersing yourself in that culture.

If I remember correctly, you said that you don't speak Greek at all - so why are you now instructing people on the best way to learn it?

Experience has taught me that you cannot learn a language just from books, or certain skill sets. For example: You cannot be a plane mechanic by just studying books without getting hands on experience. It is the same with knowing a foreign language. To say so otherwise is simply ignorance (in my experience and my humble opinion).

You may have someone who is able to read the NT in the language it was written, and you're sneering at them because they could not order a pizza in (modern) Greek?

It’s not sneering at them. I am commanded by God to love all people. But when people do dumb things, or think dumb things, we have to call them out on it in order to show them the correct path. Would you fly in a plane by a person who built an aircraft having no hands on experience in designing planes and he was just building it for the first time based on only reading a book? This would be a guy who has no experience with how to design planes or fix them. Yet, he is going to design a plane by following a book? Yeah, not gonna happen.

It is your opinion that he is "skipping a step".

Nope. It’s common basic sense. Life teaches us that there are certain skill sets that require us to have hands on experience. To know about certain basic facts is one thing, but a language is organic and is very complex. Do you really expect that the Chinese kid who just came to America is going to speak with you perfectly just by reading books? You don’t think they would ever make a mistake? Yeah, okay.

I suspect this has all arisen because someone has challenged your beloved KJV.

My hands are tied in discussing this topic with the freedom I would like because of the newly placed forum rules. So, “no comment.”
Oh, and please do not disagree with me on this point again. You know full well I cannot speak on this topic in the way that I would like.
I will not discuss this topic because it can lead to me getting points, which I do not want. But you should ask yourself, why would there be such a rule? Even America today is restricting the freedom of speech in this country. People’s mouths are being shut. It’s not a good thing in my humble opinion.

Remember the golden rule. Do unto others as you want done unto yourself.

In other words, how would you feel if there was something about God you wanted to share in the Bible and they restricted you from talking about it? It would feel like your freedom of speech was being restricted. On another Christian forum, they banned the discussion of the Trinity. It is not because they site does not believe in the Trinity, they do. But they feel that the discussion causes too many heated discussions. I disagree with their conclusion. A person should have the backbone to discuss the Trinity even if it upsets those who reject it. The same should be true for any other truth that is found in the Bible.

The truth of God’s Word is always going to upset others.
Truth is always going to divide people.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The Father chooses ones who are like little children .... cool!

Yes. There is something to be said for being child like and simple. Reading words simply in the Bible is a lost art these days. But all we can do is pray that eyes will be opened among the few.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Indeed... why should you trust anything they say ?

I think most Christians look up to scholars because they went to school and have the fancy degrees displayed on a piece of paper. This view of knowledge is hammered into them over and over and over and over and over and over again until it becomes true. The culture we are living in looks to school still as an acceptance of knowledge when this is not really the full true way to be a good skilled person in any field. Even doctors learn new things in the field that school did not teach them. Granted, doctors do learn hands on experience in their schooling. But with scholars, they do not require them to go that country and get hands on experience in learning that language with real people who speak and write that language fluently.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

ERV
So we should be finished with the beginning lessons about Christ. We should not have to keep going back to where we started. We began our new life by turning away from the evil we did in the past and by believing in God. That’s when we were taught about baptisms, laying hands on people, the resurrection of those who have died, and the final judgment. Now we need to go forward to more mature teaching.

PHILLIPS
Let us leave behind the elementary teaching about Christ and go forward to adult understanding. Let us not lay over and over again the foundation truths—repentance from the deeds which led to death, believing in God, baptism and laying-on of hands, belief in the life to come and the final judgment. No, if God allows, let us go on.

MSG
So come on, let’s leave the preschool fingerpainting exercises on Christ and get on with the grand work of art. Grow up in Christ. The basic foundational truths are in place: turning your back on “salvation by self-help” and turning in trust toward God; baptismal instructions; laying on of hands; resurrection of the dead; eternal judgment. God helping us, we’ll stay true to all that. But there’s so much more. Let’s get on with it!

My Bible that I trust says,

”Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.” (Hebrews 6:2) (KJB).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Thank you and just ask me about any verse !!

dan p

I ask God for the understanding on any verse I have trouble with. Granted, I do welcome the views of other believers on Scripture. I sometimes will look to many articles by Christians on the internet, but this is not always the case. But I am not looking for any human teacher or asking for any understanding on a particular verse at this time. The Scriptures are not locked in mystery to me. God is my teacher (See 1 John 2).

You also did not comment on what I said involving the Scripture verse under discussion.

 

[Aaron112]

My Bible that I trust says,

Yet I think you know English well enough to see here there is no conflict in the English, no contradiction with God's Word, for different translations.

 

[Aaron112]

I ask God for the understanding on any verse I have trouble with.

And I hope positively for any understanding, on all verses.

But I am not looking for any human teacher or asking for any understanding on a particular verse at this time.

 

[Aaron112]

Yes. There is something to be said for being child like and simple. Reading words simply in the Bible is a lost art these days. But all we can do is pray that eyes will be opened among the few.

I believe you agree positively that we may/should as God Directs/ pray for many that their eyes will be opened,
considering the "few" already have their eyes opened in God's Grace ....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yet I think you know English well enough to see here there is no conflict in the English, no contradiction with God's Word, for different translations.

The Philips translation you used says baptism (singular), and not baptisms (plural).

Phillips describes how he was sitting in his chair at home watching television with his wife a few days after the death of Lewis [4]. All of a sudden, Lewis appeared to him:

‘sitting in a chair within a few feet of me, and spoke a few words which were particularly relevant to the difficult circumstances through which I was passing. He was ruddier in complexion than ever, grinning all over his face and, as the old-fashioned saying has it, positively glowing with health.’
Phillips, 1967:89

This apparition of Lewis was a few days after his death on 22nd November 1963.

Denied the Blood Atonement, claiming that Jesus could have accomplished the same work had he died in a gas chamber or an electric chair (Plain Christianity, London: Epworth Press, 1954, p. 82).

So he obviously did not believe Hebrew 9:22.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

And I hope positively for any understanding, on all verses.

I pray that this is so for you. Truth is not always popular, but seek after it, and you will find more of it.

John 8:31-32
”Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”