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Spiritualists? I thought that the Bible was opposed to spiritualists.
Spiritualists= people who pursue spirituality. I'm not a bible fetish worshiper.
Maybe he relies on objective evidence?
You are free to have faith in what you choose, but if you don't have objective evidence to support it, people will question you.
Errrrm, no, you quoted my definition of the context in which I was using it.
But that's not the correct definition. Just be careful telling Christians that you are a "spiritualist" because they will assume the definition I posted.
Thank you, I've been burned at the stake and banned from Christian forums a couple of times now. At BTDF I managed to earn a lifetime ban.
I believe in Jesus the Christ, but beyond that I have issues with various tenets of Paul's Christian religion about Jesus.
"The more of science you know, the less sure you can be; the more of religion you have, the more certain you are."
Jesus would have had doubts, but his doubts never became a religion, his faith became a religion. It wasn't so much that he wanted man to merely believe in him as he asked us to trust and believe with him; to share his faith in the Universal Father. Atheism is a religion of doubt, it's a form of faith because they cannot disprove God to the point of certainty.
But I have no absolute proof, even Jesus demonstrated that so called miraculous proof is overrated. He would perform some amazing act of healing yet some religious fanatic would point out how he didn't wash his hands before he ate??? Or claim that he got his power from Satan. Man may develop spiritual laziness if he were "certain".
I've grown, through experience, to appreciate the Fathers love and wisdom in allowing me to find truth legitimately rather then violating his own natural way, depriving me of the exhilarating adventure out on the high seas of faith adventure. Some of my friends who are former Atheist came by faith legitimately, they didn't buy into a ready made religion, rather through experience they came to a faith in a God of their own understanding.
While I have had tons of experiences and observations of God, as well as doubts, I can share this fact with you. On the day of my unanticipated psychic conversion, I was a hopeless, drug addicted alcoholic who often entertained suicide. My life was an unmanageable mess! I was anti religious, although I never had a big problem with Jesus the man. One moment I had no hope, the next moment I had hope. (There was no at will testable BS process).
They say that when the pupil is ready the teacher will appear. I'm so humbled by the fact that I didn't even realize how profound my personality change was, others saw it in me, my family, friends, but alls I knew was that I wanted help and went to a 12 place to get it. I haven't had a drink it drug for 29 years. People who new me say I only mildly resemble the criminal a-hole they once knew.
Other things about me that you may note:
* I do not now nor have I ever thought that God wrote ANY of the current books on the list that make up the Bible. The books of the bible were written by holy men, some more holy than others. The OT books were redacted and edited during the Babylonian captivity, they were written by the elite Hebrew priest class for a scattered Israelite audience. They made NO claim of writing the word of God. They took a mostly ordinary secular history and converted it into a miraculous fiction! After the return the Jews would frankly loose sight of their destiny and purpose, sadly they rejected the Son when he finally did come. Further complicating matters was the contamination of evolved Christianity by OT thinking and the prevailing Pagan doctrines of human sacrifice.
* I believe in cosmic evolution, the fragmented story of Adam and Eve shows evidence of their arrival on a previously populated, fallen earth.
* The Noah flood story is the most ridiculous story in the bible, it was a result of the Hebrew priests failure to trace their blood line back to a much older Adam, so they just decided to drown the whole world in its own wickedness to fill in the gap.
* Jesus knew the errors of the scripture, but rather than
reform Judaism, he revealed new truths making use of what was true in the older writings and letting the untrue ideas die on the vine.
* In the plan of life God has has decreed that "human wisdom must evolve", he will not deprive us of that. Besides, man is in partnership with God in the evolution of God the Supreme in time and space through the collective of our unique, individual faith experiences in the very face of uncertainty.
I agree that logic does not imply wisdom, but wisdom implies logic. Wisdom without logic is foolish conceit.
I am all for wisdom. It's why I am an atheist.
eudaimonia,
Mark
I am a Christian never really doubted Jesus is the only way to God of the Holy Bible but I have always liked reading different opinions on the Christian faith. The more I research the more I see that The Bible is truth. I'm not sure how deep in the Word you were before you left but I really hope you look into things that are established by Christians and the non believers too whilst looking at the overall message and the words of The Bible.
An atheist believes there is no God.
Psalm 14:1 says: The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God."
Perhaps you're a little confused about what wisdom is.
And behaving in a patronizing manner is a great way to show Christ to others, right? Because Jesus did that in ... absolutely no part of his life, ever.
The writers of the Bible didn't make that post.You mean responding to when someone says they have wisdom by saying God doesn't exist by pointing out what the bible says about that? You'll have to take it up with the writers of the bible on that one.
Shoe shopping for an Atheist must be torture!
"How do theses look Margie?"
"Great!"
"Oh but how can you be certain?" "what at will testable proof do you have that they look "great?" Will everyone who sees theses shoes on me have the exact same reaction?" "And don't give me that nonsense about how "you just know" Margie, we've all had quite enough of your unprovable personal opinion!"
No, rather I don't think Atheist are nearly as anal-retentive when it comes to their own lives as they pretend to be when they pick at the religious.
To answer your question, while certainty may grow through daily living in faith, there is no certainty I can give you about my experience with God. God is living, he is not a mathematical formula.
The real revelation of God to man is in the lives that we live. Jesus lived a God revealing life. To have seen Jesus was to see the Father. But still, no certainty.
In the original gospel, before Paganized Christianity remixed it, the core of Jesus' "good news" was the realization that we are ALL in fact sons and daughters of God. That by faith we can realize this ennobling truth.
The writers of the Bible didn't make that post.
Hello thanks for the welcome.Aldebaran said:Welcome to the forum! BTW, I like your avatar!
I'm taking an issue with the way you wrote your post - something which you understand perfectly well.The writers of the bible are the ones you have an issue with if you don't agree with what they wrote.
The funny yet consistent thing I tend to see with these conversations is that they spiral into theists vs. atheists. Theists use their holy books to support their truths. Atheists are interested in objective truths. This is why we end up at these standstills. And then people start getting offended etc...
Because theists don't have objective truths, they have their experiences, prayers, the Bible, etc...those three things do not satisfy or pass as objective truth. An objective truth is something that just is and doesn't ever change. We can all agree that 2+2=4. If you believe it equals 5, that will be your subjective truth. Same with religion.
The Bible is one "version" among many as to who god "might" be. If you want to dub that objective truth, then that is why you struggle to gain credibility from non theists.
Me post #2 said:It's generally that we just don't share or support the assumptions you are making, and believers are used to talking to believers who do share a common set of rarely questioned assumptions.
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