The Differences Between Jesus Christ AND Christ Jesus

[yeshuasavedme]

Isaiah saw YHWH on the Throne in the created heavenly temple, worshipped by angels. John tells us YHWH on the throne whom Isaiah saw was Jesus Christ, Himself. -preincarnation!~


Jhn 12:37¶But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:Jhn 12:38
That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Jhn 12:39
Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,Jhn 12:40
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
Jhn 12:41
These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

Isaiah sees YHWH, Jesus Christ pre-incarnate:


Isa 6:1¶In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.Isa 6:3
And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, [is] YHWH of hosts: the whole earth [is] full of his glory.
And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
Isa 6:5
Then said I, Woe [is] me! for I am undone; because I [am] a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King,YHWHof hosts .

 

[Terral]

Hi Yeshuasavedme:

YSM >> Isaiah saw YHWH on the Throne in the created heavenly temple, worshipped by angels. John tells us YHWH on the throne whom Isaiah saw was Jesus Christ, Himself. -preincarnation!~

Jesus Christ is the Lord God of Genesis 2:4+ who formed Adam from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7. What does anything seen by Isaiah have to do with “The Differences Between Jesus Christ AND Christ Jesus” in whom all things in this universe were created (Col. 1:16) and are held together (Col. 1:17)?? Nothing! This is the common theme for YSM’s posts on my threads where the topic is completely ignored and we must suffer through His attempts to hijack the topic to SomeWhereElseVille. Pasting verses apart from your meaningful commentary explanation is throwing effort after foolishness, because everyone interprets these verses according to their preconceived notions.

If you cannot write on the topic of this thread, then please start one on Esaias, YHWH or Jesus Christ pre-incarnate or whatever else you really would rather write about. GL.

In Christ Jesus (F+S+HS) many of you guys to NOT even know,

Terral

 

[Dorothea]

I think you are mising the point of one in this passage, just as in;

[h3]Genesis 2:24 [/h3]

24Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.


The three are one God, but they eternally exist as Father Son and Holy Spirit. Three persons within the one God.

When Messiah was on earth in the incarnation the Father was still in heaven as was the Holy Spirit. They gave witness to this in Mark 1: 9At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10As Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. 11And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased." Here we see the three peosons of the Godhead present distinctly from each other.

You're spot on, imo.

 

[AlfredSmurdlinger]

Greetings:

I’ve been reading carefully and have reached the point of having to ask the following … Am I to understand that you are saying that Jesus Christ and Christ Jesus are two (2) different umm… what should I say (?) “people,” “entities,” “beings?” IF I’m reading your post correctly, Christ Jesus was/is the Word made flesh (the combination of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) and dwells in heaven; and Jesus Christ was/is the Word made flesh on earth.

If I am correct up to this point, why was it necessary to combine F+S+HS into Christ Jesus?

Since you describe Jesus Christ as the “Son of THAT Heavenly Man,” can you tell me what “man” that is?

Was it Christ Jesus or Jesus Christ, who met Paul on the road to Damascus?

And, lastly, for now, are both Christ Jesus and Jesus Christ in heaven now, and are we to worship them both, neither, or just one … which one?

Thanks for taking the time to read and answer my questions.

Al

 

[Terral]

Hi Alfred:

Alfred >> I’ve been reading carefully and have reached the point of having to ask the following … Am I to understand that you are saying that Jesus Christ and Christ Jesus are two (2) different umm… what should I say (?) “people,” “entities,” “beings?”

Christ Jesus is “The Word” composed of the Father (spirit witness), Son (blood witness) and Holy Spirit (water witness) and “the three are into the one” (1John 5:8). Christ Jesus is “The Word” (John 1:2) IN whom all things were created (Col. 1:16) AND are held together (Col. 1:17). Christ Jesus is the “Son of God” (2Cor. 1:19) IN WHOM the heavenly places (Eph. 1:3, 2:6) are located where “Jesus Christ” was seated at the right hand of God. That is how Jesus Christ was raised “far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.” Eph. 4:10.

Figure 1 shows Christ Jesus (F+S+HS) put together as one ‘three into one’ Heavenly ‘man’ with a spirit (Father), soul (Son) and body (Holy Spirit). You can see the three into the one creation (all things = John 1:3, Col. 1:16) in the heavens (spirit), heaven (blood) and earth (water) with the same triune IMAGE (Col. 1:15) of The Almighty (Rev. 1:8) standing also in a ‘three into one’ form beyond the Second Veil in the Holy of Holies of the larger “Man of God” (Fig. 2). Everything in this Flesh Realm (water witness = Eth Erets = The Earth of Gen. 1:1) is held together IN The Word (F+S+HS) like this ( http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c266/Terral03/18.jpg ). Basically you are getting a second dose of the Opening Post, which everyone here has chosen to completely ignore to begin typing aimlessly about something else. Christ Jesus ‘can’ contain everything in this universe time and time again without breaking a sweat, but Jesus Christ walking around on this earth could not contain even you and the readers of this post. Jesus Christ walking around on the earth is the “Son of THAT Heavenly Man” (F+S+HS) as The Word made flesh (John 1:14) for men to see the “Son of God” (John 1:34) “found in appearance AS A MAN.” Philippians 2:8.

Alfred >> IF I’m reading your post correctly, Christ Jesus was/is the Word made flesh (the combination of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) and dwells in heaven; and Jesus Christ was/is the Word made flesh on earth.

That is a fair characterization of The Differences Between Jesus Christ and Christ Jesus, but far from being complete. After all, Jesus Christ is currently seated in the heavenly places that are “IN Christ Jesus” (Eph. 2:6), which is another aspect of this debate nobody wishes to touch with a ten-foot pole. A far better assessment of my view is that Jesus Christ is the ‘incarnation’ of Christ Jesus in our physical universe, as the “Son of the Living God.” Matthew 16:16. Our being seated “IN Christ Jesus” means the believers in our gospel have an inheritance and position of authority and power IN The Word (F+S+HS) who contains this entire universe and holds all things (seen and unseen) together.

Alfred >> If I am correct up to this point, why was it necessary to combine F+S+HS into Christ Jesus?

Why is it necessary? The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are the three witnesses of “The Word” testifying about the “Son of God” in the same way your spirit, soul and body testify about Alfred. Should we characterize Alfred’s identity by looking at his physical body only? Do we define you by definitions related to your soul and the union of that blood witness with your spirit as ‘one’ (John 10:30)? No, no and no. You are a ‘god’ (Ps. 82:6, Jn 10:34) incarnate here from God’s Infinite Realm and currently possess a ‘triune’ (spirit, soul, body) nature all testifying simultaneously about Alfred as a Singularity Expression. Christ Jesus is “The Word” (John 1:2) and “The Word” is the Father, Son AND Holy Spirit all testifying with very loud voices explaining God (John 1:18) who ‘also’ has a triune expression (God To Come, God Who Is, God Who Was = Rev. 1:8) from where the Son’s IMAGE (Col. 1:15) is derived. In short, Jesus Christ’s sacrifice at Calvary is a microcosm and antitype of God sacrificing “The Word” into the Father (spirit witness) and Holy Spirit (water witness = Helper/Mother), so Their union brought the “Only Begotten Son” into being. Every aspect of “The Mystery” (Eph. 3:3) as a ‘process’ reveals a water witness coming from the side of the spirit witness, so their union (two become one flesh) ‘begets’ a blood witness ‘seed’ offspring. God’s Living Word uses the Father, Son and Holy Spirit to show us the face of Christ, so in that we can see “the Light of the knowledge of the Glory of God” (2Cor. 4:6).

Alfred >> Since you describe Jesus Christ as the “Son of THAT Heavenly Man,” can you tell me what “man” that is?

Why describe the same triune series of relationships again and again and again, when pictures are worth a thousand words? That Heavenly Man is “Christ Jesus” (The Word) who contains this entire Universe.

This is another picture of Christ Jesus (The Word = Fig. 2) standing between God (Fig. 1) and Men (Fig. 3), but you are to realize this is the Tabernacle View God uses in the Tabernacle of Moses and the Temple. Figure 3 is actually contained “IN Christ Jesus” like the yoke of the egg, while God’s Infinite Realm (Fig. 1) is like an Infinite shell from Fig. 18 above. Our universe (Fig. 3) is just one ‘son of God’ (Luke 3:38) with the Invisible Universe (Heavens) being Adam’s spirit and the Visible Universe (Earth) being Adam’s broken body (Eve). Heaven (Gen. 1:8) is Adam’s soul where the two seas meet and overlap (Gen. 1:6+7) as the firmament (expanse) of that union. Our entire universe (The Earth = Gen. 1:1) is the ‘water witness’ being summed up in Christ Jesus (The Word), while God is also being summed up IN His Only Begotten Son through this same triune mystery process.

Alfred >> Was it Christ Jesus or Jesus Christ, who met Paul on the road to Damascus?

Scripture is clear in that Paul’s question (“Who are You, Lord?) was met with “I am Jesus whom you are persecuting.” Acts 9:5. Jesus Christ is addressing Paul from the right hand of God (Rom. 8:34, Col. 3:1-3) in the same way Steven saw Him in Acts 7:55+56. I can ask the very same question about Alfred: Is the ‘god’ (Ps 82:6, Jn 10:34) Alfred speaking to me in this post, OR his incarnation walking around on earth as a mere man? :0) The answer in every case is BOTH! Scripture says,

“For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, so we, who are many, are one body “IN Christ,” and individually members one of another.” Romans 12:4+5.

Do you know what it means for everyone IN Christ Jesus to be a member of one another? Again, we are all ‘gods’ in God’s Infinite Realm and already know one another most intimately. The reason we are to recognize “Christ Jesus” as “The Word” is because the sons of God are to see the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as an almost Infinite Realm containing this universe AND all the sons of God. Every one of our brothers and sisters “IN Christ Jesus” has an incarnation “IN Christ” AND a face on the exterior of that realm like a costly multifaceted Jewel. “Christ in you” (Col. 1:27) is a microcosmic (smaller version) of that entire realm where each of us has access to ALL of our brothers and sisters by simply looking inward upon a mirror duplicate OF THE ENTIRE REALM. :0) For Terral to teach you about “Christ IN You” and “this mystery among the Gentiles” (Col. 1:27 also), then the very first step is to realize the Differences Between Jesus Christ And Christ Jesus who makes up that entire Word Realm. Only then can I begin to wake you up to the truth that inside “Christ IN You” is yet another realm (God IN Christ = 2Cor. 5:19) with a myriad of faces on THAT Infinite Jewel depicting Figure 1 in the diagram above (God’s Infinite Realm) were we are all gods and also members of one another; and have been since long “before the world was” (John 17:5). There are ten thousand things I would love to share with all of you about “these things” (2Peter 3:14-16), but wisdom dictates that we proceed along the lines of your direct questions. Paul tells you that ‘new things have come’ (2Cor. 5:16-17) for those of us “IN Christ” who see Jesus of the flesh that way “NO LONGER.” However, if this assembly cannot even begin to fathom the VAST differences between Jesus Christ walking around on the earth and Christ Jesus who contains THIS ENTIRE UNIVERSE, then we are still miles and miles from being ready . . . You guys can take forever and ever if you wish, because I already know these things backwards and forwards in my sleep. The difference is that in heaven you will pay the equivalent of fortunes for what could be passed along today for free . . .

Alfred >> And, lastly, for now, are both Christ Jesus and Jesus Christ in heaven now, and are we to worship them both, neither, or just one … which one?

Christ Jesus is “The Word” and is “The Heaven” of Genesis 1:1 or the “Highest Heaven” of 1Kings 8:27 known by David and Solomon like Adam knew all of these things in the Garden. Jesus Christ is seated at the right hand of God making intercession for the saints (Rom. 8:34) even as we speak. Jesus Christ at the right hand of God is a microcosm of the entire Realm (Fig. 2 above) standing at the right hand of God’s Infinite Realm. If Heaven of Genesis 1:1 could speak to the Earth (Adam) of the same verse, then He (Son of God) would be saying exactly what Jesus Christ said to John the Baptist (man sent from God = John 1:6) as the Heavenly (Christ) and Earthly (John the Baptist = David = Elijah = Adam) Messiah testifying about The Light (Gen. 1:3, John 1:4-9). Christ Jesus (2Cor. 1:19) and His incarnation (Jesus Christ) represent the “Son of God” (John 1:34) or The Word ‘made flesh’ (John 1:14). We are to worship “His God and Father” (Rev. 1:6) who raised Him from the dead. Romans 10:9. Christ Jesus is the “one Mediator” or your means of communication to the “one God” OF THE SAME VERSE!!!!! 1Timothy 2:5. Worshipping the “Son of God” as “His God and Father” is just another form of Idolatry practiced by deceived and deluded men filling the world today.

Alfred >> Thanks for taking the time to read and answer my questions.

No problem at all Alfred. Thank you for asking the right kinds of questions, so our brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus can benefit from our exchange. God bless you,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

The Mystery Explained >> http://www.divshare.com/download/720180-3d0

 

[AlfredSmurdlinger]

Thanks again. Please excuse me if I don't jump in right away, but I think you provide a very interesting discourse. However, I've tried looking up the scriptural references you've very kindly provided, but I can't find them. Which translation do you use?

Thanks, Al.

 

[RandyP]

One big reason why Terral’s ‘theology’ is incoherent (and errant) is because of the fact that he embraces an old heresy: modalism. This gross error demands an allegorizing of scripture following ( Like Jerry pointed out).


Personally, I find this frustrating, because some of his ‘stuff’ (that which he ‘borrows’ from dispensational theology) is actually sound... but to try and sift ‘it’ all out seems a dizzying task to me.


I tried twisting my head every which way, like my little dog does when she’s trying to figure something out... but alas the ‘diagrams’ remain completely incoherent to me... sigh...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Modalism



Modalism is probably the most common theological error concerning the nature of God. It is a denial of the Trinity which states that God is a single person who, throughout biblical history, has revealed Himself in three modes, or forms.



Thus, God is a single person who first manifested himself in the mode of the Father in Old Testament times. At the incarnation, the mode was the Son. After Jesus' ascension, the mode is the Holy Spirit. These modes are consecutive and never simultaneous. In other words, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit never all exist at the same time, only one after another.


Modalism denies the distinctiveness of the three persons in the Trinity even though it retains the divinity of Christ.



Present day groups that hold to forms of this error are the United Pentecostal and UnitedApostolicChurches. They deny the Trinity, teach that the name of God is Jesus, and require baptism for salvation. These modalist churches often accuse Trinitarians of teaching three gods. This is not what the Trinity is.



The correct teaching of the Trinity is one God in three eternal coexistent persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

carm.org/heresy/modalism.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


christiandefense.org/Article_church%20history%20Oneness.htm

[FONT=&quot]V[/FONT]irtually all non-Christian cults (esp. Oneness believers and Jehovah’s Witnesses) reject the doctrine of the Trinity and teach that the early church had no such concept of a triune God, but rather they held to a unitarian concept of God (i.e., God existing as one Person). Because of a great lack of study in the area of Patristics (i.e., church Fathers), these groups normally assert that the origins of the doctrine of the Trinity first emerged at the Council of Nicea in A.D. 325.


So vast is the evidence that the early church envisaged a tri-personal God and not a unitarian or unipersonal deity to which groups such as Oneness Pentecostals (as well as Muslims, Jews, and JWs) hold, that Oneness writers such as William B. Chalfant make desperate attempts to convince Oneness believes that the early church Fathers were really modalists

 

[Terral]

Hi Randy:

This is yet another post that should be named “Dispy’s Sock Puppet Gone Wild!!!” What did this guy ‘quote >>’ from MY WORK to begin correcting using Scripture? Nothing. Instead we get another Terral, Terral, Terral post with attacks against my person using nothing but more underhanded trickery.

One big reason why Terral’s ‘theology’ is incoherent (and errant) is because of the fact that he embraces an old heresy: modalism. This gross error demands an allegorizing of scripture following ( Like Jerry pointed out).

LOL! Randy could post this nonsense on any of my threads, which has nothing to do with the Topic of this debate at all. What part of the Opening Post represents the allegorizing (heh) of Scripture? Oh yeah, this guy never even bothered to quote me about anything, so your guess is as good as mine. :0) What Randy is trying to do is attack the credibility of MY PERSON without ever addressing one thing I have written ANYWHERE, because this guy has a case for NOTHING. The funny part is that my work contains ‘the truth’ on each topic without regard for what anyone here believes one way or the other. If you do not like the claims, evidence and conclusions of MY WORK, then “quote >>” anything at all and offer your opposing views using Scripture. 2Tim. 2:15.

Personally, I find this frustrating, because some of his ‘stuff’ (that which he ‘borrows’ from dispensational theology) is actually sound... but to try and sift ‘it’ all out seems a dizzying task to me.

Yes, Dispy. We have heard these same pathetic comments from you before. When your hand finally gets tired of using this sock puppet, then by all means come out of hiding and begin defending yourself . . .

I tried twisting my head every which way, like my little dog does when she’s trying to figure something out... but alas the ‘diagrams’ remain completely incoherent to me... sigh...

This discussion is about the differences between Jesus Christ and Christ Jesus mentioned only in the Pauline Epistles. I use many diagrams, because my explanations are from what God has given me to see by His Living Word. 2Tim. 3:16-17.

Modalism

Modalism is probably the most common theological error concerning the nature of God. It is a denial of the Trinity which states that God is a single person who, throughout biblical history, has revealed Himself in three modes, or forms.

Denial of the Trinity? Are you serious? :0) Trying to judge me as your heretic will have serious ramifications in the future. This clown never even attempted to ‘quote >>’ from my work where he supposed that I deny ANYTHING. The Word (John 1:1-3) is the Father (spirit), Son (blood) and Holy Spirit (water) who incarnated onto this planet as our Lord Jesus Christ. John 1:14, 34, 3:16-18. God’s Three Witnesses appear with Him in Revelation 1:8 (God To Come, God Who Is, God Who Was = diagram).

Thus, God is a single person who first manifested himself in the mode of the Father in Old Testament times . . .

What has any of this to do with the differences between Jesus Christ and Christ Jesus? Nothing. Randy (Dispy) is trying to hijack this topic to ModalismVille with his own nonsense and stupidity. The best place to see the VAST differences between Jesus Christ and Christ Jesus is in these verse:

“But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him “IN” the heavenly places “IN” Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us “IN” Christ Jesus.” Ephesians 2:4-7.

The true believers in our gospel have been seated ‘with Christ’ IN the heavenly places that are “IN” Christ Jesus. Jesus Christ of the flesh, that ‘we’ know that way NO LONGER (2Cor. 5:16-17) was raised up “above ALL THE HEAVENS” (Eph 4:10 = diagram = from Fig 3 into Fig 2) and also seated IN the heavenly places that are IN Christ Jesus, which is the only way that ‘we’ can be seated there WITH HIM in the first place. Jesus Christ is “The Word” made flesh who walked around ON THIS EARTH and is now at the right hand of God making intercession for the saints (Rom. 8:34). However, this universe is held together IN Christ Jesus, because “He” is very much larger than even this entire universe.

“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For “IN” Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and “IN” Him all things hold together.” Colossians 1:15-17.

Where is Randy’s explanation for how all things in this universe are held together in Jesus Christ of the flesh walking around on this earth? :0) Oh, he is wasting our time with accusations, insults and nothing more that nonsense. I am,

In Christ Jesus and know what that means,

Terral

 

[RandyP]

@ post #8 Jerrysch asks you Terral:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

“So are you suggesting that the Father Son and Holy Spirit are one and the same person?”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To which you respond in post # 9:

“Yes”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Terral, that is MODALISM

 

[Terral]

Hi Randy/Dispy:

Terral, that is MODALISM

No sir. That (F+S+HS) is The Word we know as our Lord Jesus Christ. John 1:1-3, 14.

In Christ Jesus (F+S+HS = The Word),

Terral

 

[RandyP]

Scrolling down through diagrams and long post(s) on pg 2... I didn't notice that Jerrysch had already began to point out the modalist error in Terral's subject matter

What follows this kind of error is error in Christology. That probably is why Terral errs re: the 100% God_100% man, nature of Jesus Christ

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,​

Justified in the Spirit,​

Seen by angels,​

Preached among the Gentiles,​

Believed on in the world,​

Received up in glory.​

1 Tim 3:16 (NKJV)

 

[Terral]

Hi Randy/Dispy with Jerry quoted and mentioned:

A link to the Opening Post is right here (link) where Randy is encouraged to ‘quote >>’ anything from MY WORK to begin offering his opposing views using Scripture. 2Tim. 2:15. We all might grow old before he ever accepts the challenge. :0)

Scrolling down through diagrams and long post(s) on pg 2... I didn't notice that Jerrysch had already began to point out the modalist error in Terral's subject matter.

Jerry has just as much right to be wrong as Dispy/Randy and everyone here. This is what Jerry had to contribute in Post #12, when Hizlamb came to my defense:

I think you are mising the point of one in this passage, just as in;

[h3]Genesis 2:24 [/h3]

24Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

The three are one God, but they eternally exist as Father Son and Holy Spirit. Three persons within the one God.

You guys have bought the common Denominational Counterfeit that says the Father + Son + Holy Spirit = God, when those are the three witnesses of “The Word” we know as Jesus Christ the “Son of God.” John 1:34. This thread and this discussion has everything to do with the differences between Jesus Christ of the flesh and Christ Jesus the Heavenly “Man” (1Tim. 2:5 = diagram) between God ‘and’ men who contains this entire universe “IN” Himself (like this). Did anyone else notice how Randy here completely ignored my replies to him in Post #28 and Post #30, as I am supposed to be impressed by the fact that he can shout “Heresy!” and “Modalism!” and whatever else comes to his mind? :0) This is funny. The guy completely ignored everything in my OP presentation to begin talking about Jerry, because he has a case for NOTHING against one thing I ‘did’ write in the Opening Post of this thread. :0)

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit of Matthew 28:19 are the three witnesses testifying about “The Word” in the very same way that God To Come (spirit), God Who Is (blood) and God Who Was (water witness Helper) are testify for “The Almighty” in Revelation 1:8. The Heavens (spirit), Heaven (blood) and Earth (water witness helper) are the three witnesses of “This Creation” (diagram = in blue on right) in the very same way, as all these three witness mystery groups are demonstrated in this diagram (here). When “God” (The Almighty) said that man is created in “Our image” (Gen. 1:26-28), then He is talking about a ‘triune’ image where man has a spirit, soul (blood witness) and body (water witness helper) as shown in this diagram (pic). Christ Jesus bears the same triune “image of the Invisible God” (Col. 1:15), because the Father (spirit), Son (blood) and Holy Spirit (water witness Helper) bears the same exact ‘triune’ image of a man, the Temple (diagram), the family (diagram) and all the other triune mystery groups of Scripture (diagram and diagram). All of God’s spirit witnesses bear the number one (1) and all of God’s blood witnesses have the number two (2) like all of His water witnesses have the number three (3), so that added together (like F+S+HS) their numbers (1+2+3) equal the number of a man or six (6). :0)

The Roman Catholic ‘model’ says F+S+HS = God, which means they have the right equation; but they have the wrong principals plugged into their equation. They are having you worship “The Word” (F+S+HS = the Son of God) in the place of “The Almighty” (GTC, GWI, GWW = the One God), which amounts to nothing more than IDOLATRY. Therefore, what we really have going on here is Randy/Dispy pushing his idolatry on others by coming to my thread, quoting NOTHING from MY WORK, to begin fabricating accusations of Modalism; when he and Jerry are actually the ones blinded by the ‘god of this world’ (2Cor. 4:3-4) and his ‘deluding influence’ forcing them to ‘believe what is false’ (2Thes. 2:11) all of their days on the earth. In over three decades of preaching and teaching God’s Word in the USA and abroad, just how many individuals have I witnesses escaping the clutches of the ‘deluding influence’ and the ‘mystery of iniquity’ from 2Thes. 2:7-12??? ZERO!!! None ever escape, because the deluding influence forces them to believe what is false to the very end! That is the very reason that so “MANY” are running around telling the same exact lies ‘and’ the reason the fate of these CF.com members and readers depends upon figuring out just who is and is not ‘approved’ (1Cor. 11:19) before men and God (2Tim. 2:15).

When Messiah was on earth in the incarnation the Father was still in heaven as was the Holy Spirit.

Jerry is definitely mistaken, but ‘these things’ from Paul’s “The Mystery” (Eph. 3:3, Col. 1:26 = Vine's) are definitely “hard to understand” (2Peter 3:14-16) for the untaught and unstable being led to their own destruction. God and The Word are “ONE” and the same thing in God’s Infinite Realm (far left), as recorded in John 1:1. “The Word” is then ‘with God’ (John 1:2) in His ‘incarnation’ as “Heaven” of Genesis 1:1 like Adam is the “Earth” of the same verse. These three witnesses (God, The Word/Heaven, Adam/Earth) are standing and testifying in Genesis 1:1 ‘and’ in the first three verses of John 1:1-3 in consecutive (John 1:1 = God, John 1:2 = The Word, John 1:3 = Creation) order. Therefore, “The Word” (John 1:2) is the ‘incarnation’ of “THE WORD” that is INFINITE and ONE with God in His Infinite Realm even right this moment as we speak!! God had to subject “This Creation” (Adam) to futility (Rom. 8:20-22), because this universe is a mere matrix or representation of just one “son of God” (Luke 3:38) that Satan murdered in God’s Infinite Realm ‘and’ The Word has incarnated to come and save him. :0) This means “The Earth” of Genesis 1:1 and John 1:3 was ‘pierced’ to beget the heavens, heaven and earth with the Big Bang of Genesis 1:2 ‘and’ God had to also ‘pierce’ (sacrifice) His Perfect Word/Heaven in order to then send the “Light” (Gen. 1:3 = John 1:4-9) in the ‘triune’ Persons of the Father (spirit), Son (blood) and Holy Spirit (water). Therefore, the incarnation of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as “The Word/Heaven” has continued to contain this entire universe “IN” Him (Col. 1:16-17), even though The Word (F+S+HS) incarnated into this universe as the “Lord God” of Genesis 2:4+ ‘and’ Jesus Christ of Luke 1:35.

Jesus Christ is the Father ‘and’ the Son ‘and’ the Holy Spirit all bound together as “ONE” and walking around on this earth as the “Tabernacle/Temple” of the Living God who dwells IN Him (Col. 2:9). This is the reason that Scripture says “God was IN Christ” reconciling the world to Himself (2Cor. 5:19), because God rested “IN” the Lord God way back in Genesis 2:1-3 to begin this ‘seventh/Sabbath’ day. Jesus Christ teaches that He (the Son) is IN the Father ‘and’ the Father is IN Me (John 14:10-11), because the Holy Spirit is also IN the Son ‘and’ the Son is also “IN” the Holy Spirit the very same way that your spirit, soul and body are ‘one’ and joined together. The sad fact is that MANY here (the vast majority) do NOT know the differences between the “One God” (GTC, GWI, GWW) and “My Father who is IN HEAVEN” (Matt. 10:32-33) testifying as the spirit witness of “The Word” we know as Jesus Christ the “Son of God.” For these guys to come out here and accuse me of heresy (heh) is very fitting indeed, because that judgment will be put back on them by God Himself through His Word on the day of Judgment (Rev. 20:11-15) and everyone here is my witness. :0)

They gave witness to this in Mark 1: 9At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10As Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. 11And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased." Here we see the three persons of the Godhead present distinctly from each other.

No sir. We see “God” testifying about “The Word” made flesh (John 1:14) and dwelling among men in the world in the Persons of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. To hold up “The Word” as “God!!!” to become your object of Deity Worship is what God calls IDOLATRY, because you are worshipping something IN HEAVEN (see Ex. 20:4 again), when heaven and even the Highest Heaven cannot contain God!!! 1Kings 8:26-27. The fact that the whole wide world is running feverishly after the same Roman Catholic/Greek Orthodox/Protestantism false doctrine will be no excuse in the Day of Judgment, so enjoy your Modalism Witch Hunt while time still permits. :0) Randy continues his rant:


[Continued]

 

[Terral]

What follows this kind of error is error in Christology. That probably is why Terral errs re: the theanthropic nature(God-Man) of Jesus Christ
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
1 Tim 3:16 (NKJV)

Randy’s Commentary >> NONE! :0)

This ‘cut and paste’ theologian just quotes one verse and runs away in hope that someone is deceived by his trickery and finger pointing and nonsense. Jesus Christ is still the “Son of God” (John 1:34) and God raised Him (F+S+HS) from the dead (Rom. 10:9) on the third day. Scripture clearly says, "No one has seen God at any time . . ." (Jn 1:18), but these guys continue stumbling around in the dark anyway in fashioning their golden calf of IDOLATRY from His Only Begotten Son (F+S+HS). These guys do not even know the differences between the “One God” and the “One Mediator” Christ Jesus (1Tim. 2:5 = diagram) of the same verse. :0) Jesus Christ says,

"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God [The Almighty], ‘and’ Jesus Christ [The Word = F+S+HS] whom You have sent.” John 17:3.

Yes. The Son of God was manifested in the flesh being ‘found in appearance AS A MAN’ (Phil. 2:8) ‘and’ God was IN Christ (2Cor. 5:19) reconciling the world to Himself.

In Christ Jesus the Son of God,

Terral

 

[RandyP]

The Roman Catholic ‘model’ says F+S+HS = God, which means they have the right equation;

but they have the wrong principals plugged into their equation.

[Continued]

Rome errs in Christology by denying the humanity of Christ with doctrine(s) like
"The Immaculate Conception"

Terral's error is similar in that he enjoins Rome as per his statement above, and his inventions tediously laid out here. What it boils down to is an offense with Christ's humanity. These errors slight the humanity of Christ our Lord.

as an aside... I haven't a clue what his:

"but they have the wrong principals plugged into their equation."

is supposed to mean ... but it doesn't really matter, because what I'm trying to point out is the gist of the error, so to speak

Most new age stuff also borrows from these old heresies that slight, obscure, re-define, obfuscate... or by any other invention serve a violence to the humanity of our Lord while retaining His Deity.

 

[RandyP]

16 And without *controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,​

Justified in the Spirit,​

Seen by angels,​

Preached among the Gentiles,​

Believed on in the world,​

Received up in glory.​

1 Tim 3:16 (NKJV)

gnostic influence largely gave rise to the Christological heresies that attempted to bring *controversy (an argument with which to mount an attempted 'explanation' for this unfathomable (and secret) 'thing' of God.

To 'diagram it' so to speak... (pun intended)

We as Christians do well not to join these presumptuous false teachings that go beyond what is written; but reprove (them)

De 29:29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

 

[Terral]

Hi Randy:

This is ridiculous. My debating adversary here cites one line from my work above, that he confesses NOT to even understand, then runs straight back to ModalismVille to carry on without even proving one thing using Scripture. 2Tim 2:15. We already know that Randy can shout “Modalism” and “Heresy” with the best of them, but where is the beef of his ‘supported’ arguments against one thing written in the OP of this thread? :0) Some disgruntled CF.com member (like Dispy) has created this Sock Puppet alter ego to come out here and make ridiculous claims that is nothing more than a witch hunt.

Rome errs in Christology by denying the humanity of Christ with doctrine(s) like "The Immaculate Conception"

Terral's error is similar in that he enjoins Rome as per his statement above, and his inventions tediously laid out here.

Now Rome and Terral are on trial, but Randy has everything figured out! :0) This gets better:

What it boils down to is an offense with Christ's humanity. These errors slight the humanity of Christ our Lord.

There is nothing at all human about “The Word” in the Person of our Lord Jesus Christ (F+S+HS), because He is the “Son of God” (John 1:34) “found in appearance AS A MAN.” Philippians 2:8. Can anyone here tell Randy who is the greatest born of women? Can anybody?? :0) Jesus Christ gives the answer:

"Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has NOT arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! . . .”. Matthew 11:11.

Those of you attempting to humanize our Lord Jesus Christ need to figure out how to make John the Baptist greater than Him, OR Christ is a LIAR in making the bold statement above. The difference is that Christ was conceived of the Holy Spirit (Matt. 1:20) being overshadowed by the Father (power of the Most High) so that the Holy Child is called the “Son of God.” Luke 1:35. The reason that the greatest to EVER be born of woman is John the Baptist is because he is yet another ‘skin’ (Gen. 3:21, 2Kings 1:8, Mark 1:6 = diagram = OT 'prophet' line going up in yellow) of your father Adam IN whom all died (1Cor. 15:22). The reason John denied being Elijah (John 1:21) is because that is just another skin for Adam too like Joshua, Abraham, David and the coming prophet of Acts 3:22-23. :0) Jesus Christ is the “Lord God” who formed His “son of God” (Luke 3:38) back in Genesis 2:7, which disqualifies Him from being numbered among mere men.

. . . as an aside... I haven't a clue what his:

"but they have the wrong principals plugged into their equation."

is supposed to mean ... but it doesn't really matter, because what I'm trying to point out is the gist of the error, so to speak

No sir. It does not matter, because Randy/Dispy is here to throw dust in the air and berate the thread starter with his nonsense and stupidity. :0) The Roman Catholic Trinity Equation says:

The Father (spirit) + Son (blood witness) + Holy Spirit (water witness) = God.

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit represent the ‘principals’ that are plugged into their Singularity/Trinity Equation. Jesus Christ is “The Word” broken down into the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. So the right equation says the Father + Son + Holy Spirit = The Word. However, the RC Church insists on removing “The Word” from the equation to insert “God” in the place of His Only Begotten Son (F+S+HS = The Word). The right equation says

“God To Come” (spirit) + “God Who Is” (blood witness) + “God Who Was” (water witness Helper) = God (The Almighty = Rev. 1:8).

Replacing “God” with ANYTHING is Idolatry, even if you choose to replace the “one God” with “Christ Jesus (F+S+HS)" of the same verse. 1Timothy 2:5. Does replacing the “one God,” who raised Christ (F+S+HS) from the dead make you any better than any other idolater? No! All idolaters are worthy of the lake of fire (Rev. 21:8) no matter how you choose to replace the One God that ‘is’ worthy of our Deity Worship.

Most new age stuff also borrows from these old heresies that slight, obscure, re-define, obfuscate... or by any other invention serve a violence to the humanity of our Lord while retaining His Deity.

New Age stuff? Heh . . . There is only ONE GOD (Eph. 4:6) and Christ Jesus is the “one Mediator” of the SAME VERSE.

“For there is one God, and one Mediator also between God ‘and’ men, the man Christ Jesus . . .”. 1Timothy 2:5.

The equation looks like this:

One God > One Mediator Christ Jesus (Son of God) > Men.

Randy does not know whether to transform the “Son of God’ into God or just a mere man. :0) Scripture says, “God is NOT A MAN . . .” (Num. 23:19), so this guy is out of options. Randy is replacing the “one God” with “Christ Jesus” (F+S+HS) to go around handing out God’s Deity to anyone he wishes. Jesus Christ (Son of God) is Lord ‘and’ God raised Him from the dead!!! Romans 10:9. The differences between God ‘and’ His Son are on full display everywhere. God and His Son** and men***:

“If we receive the testimony of men***, the testimony of God is greater; for the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son**. The one*** who believes in the Son of God** has the testimony in himself***; the one*** who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he*** has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son**. And the testimony is this, that God has given us*** eternal life, and this life is in His Son**. He*** who has the Son** has the life; he*** who does not have the Son of God** does not have the life. These things I*** have written to you*** who believe in the name of the Son of God**, so that you*** may know that you*** have eternal life.” 1John 5:9-13.

Sooner or later some of you*** will come to realize that the Son of God** is the Father + Son + Holy Spirit representing the ‘three witnesses’ testifying (1Jn 5:7-8) for “The Word**” (John 1:2) who became flesh to dwell among us*** that God sent into the world to save sinners***. Jesus of the flesh is the ‘incarnation’ of Christ Jesus (F+S+HS) who contains this entire universe IN Himself. Col. 1:17. But hey, we already know that Randy/Dispy can whine and cry with the best of them, which is the point he continues driving home to mama. :0)

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[RandyP]

Hi Randy:
....
Now Rome and Terral are on trial, but Randy has everything figured out! This gets better:

I’m far from having anything all figured out. I’m just a man corrupt to core, broken by my own sin. I’m wholly inadequate and without recourse. My only hope is Christ.

He took on the whole of my own (personal) desolate humanity and offered Himself even to death to appease (propitiate) the wrath of judgment that I deserve. He overcame that last enemy_ death itself _ to reconcile me to God and purchased me from death to abundant life, transcending peace, hope, life everlasting.

As a child Rome hid Christ from me, offered ‘another’ Christ; either only in a manger or continually bloodied on her altars. Rome substituted the Redeemer with a ‘Co-Redemptrix’, ‘Queen of Heaven’, ‘Mother of God’, and so on. So, in a sense, you’re right Terral. Rome is on trial with me. That’s Rome and her false doctrines__NOT__ Roman Catholic people like members of my own family that I dearly love.

Salvation is the issue. If salvation is not central to these kinds of communications, then; what is their value?
Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (AV)

There is nothing at all human about “The Word” in the Person of our Lord Jesus Christ ...

De-humanizing the Lord presents a ‘different’ Christ. This then makes salvation impossible.

Those of you attempting to *humanize our Lord Jesus Christ need to figure out how to make John the Baptist greater than Him, OR Christ is a LIAR in making the bold statement above.

This is a straw argument (and a bizarre one at that) but; further illustrates the point I’m trying to make. (That is) that, these false teachings that argue against the hypostatic union (*fully man and fully God) in Jesus, argue against salvation.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin

Randy does not know whether to transform the “Son of God’ into God or just a mere man.

This is a false dichotomy. The ‘hypostatic union’ respecting our Lord, is 100% God and 100% man. We don’t “transform” our Lord into anything.

Isa 29:16 Oh your perverseness! —Shall the potter be esteemed as the clay, so that the work should say of him that made it, He made me not; or the thing formed say of him that formed it, He hath no understanding? (Darby)

Isa 45:9b... Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? (AV)

 

[Terral]

Hi Randy:

I’m far from having anything all figured out. I’m just a man corrupt to core, broken by my own sin. I’m wholly inadequate and without recourse. My only hope is Christ.

He took on the whole of my own (personal) desolate humanity and offered Himself even to death to appease (propitiate) the wrath of judgment that I deserve. He overcame that last enemy_ death itself _ to reconcile me to God and purchased me from death to abundant life, transcending peace, hope, life everlasting.

As a child Rome hid Christ from me, offered ‘another’ Christ; either only in a manger or continually bloodied on her altars. Rome substituted the Redeemer with a ‘Co-Redemptrix’, ‘Queen of Heaven’, ‘Mother of God’, and so on. So, in a sense, you’re right Terral. Rome is on trial with me. That’s Rome and her false doctrines__NOT__ Roman Catholic people like members of my own family that I dearly love.

Salvation is the issue. If salvation is not central to these kinds of communications, then; what is their value?

Please forgive, but Randy is obviously lost in more ways than one. This is the “Differences between Jesus Christ and Christ Jesus” Debate Thread and not the “Two Gospels” thread provided for addressing the doctrinal precepts of the Doctrine of Salvation. Since NOTHING you say has one thing to do with this OP topic, then please head over to the appropriate “Two Gospels” thread, “quote >>” anything that appears off, and give us your best shot using Scripture. 2Tim. 2:15. GL.

Salvation Thread >> http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=5379956

De-humanizing the Lord presents a ‘different’ Christ. This then makes salvation impossible.

Again, this debate is about the differences between Jesus Christ and Christ Jesus, IF you even know what that means. Humanizing our Lord Jesus Christ reduces the “Word” (John 1:1-3, 14) and the “Son of God” (John 1:34) to a mere man, which would make ‘him’ in need of a Savior like you and me.

This is a straw argument (and a bizarre one at that) but; further illustrates the point I’m trying to make. (That is) that, these false teachings that argue against the hypostatic union (*fully man and fully God) in Jesus, argue against salvation.

Lord-Have-Mercy . . . Where is that salvation thread again? :0) The point here is that Randy has no argument against Christ’s statement of FACT in Matthew 11:11 where “He” teaches that the greatest born of women is John the Baptist! Note the translators added the exclamation point to show the emphasis that Christ is making ‘and’ for a very good reason. After all, Jesus Christ is the Lord God of Genesis 2 who formed Adam from the dust of the ground and NOT a mere man!!!

This is a false dichotomy. The ‘hypostatic union’ respecting our Lord, is 100% God and 100% man. We don’t “transform” our Lord into anything.

No sir. Jesus Christ is the “Son of God” (John 1:34) and you do not even know what that means. Jesus is Lord ‘and’ God raised Him from the dead. Rom. 10:9. Do the math! Christ is at the ‘right hand of God’ (Col. 3:1-3) making intercession for the saints (Rom. 8:34) as we speak, but you cannot add “one God” and the “one Mediator” (1Tim. 2:5 = diagram) to get God ‘and’ His Only Begotten Son. What about “His God and Father” (Rev. 1:6) who raised Him from the dead? I suppose He is Swiss Cheese. :0) And please do not quote Darby to me, as he has just as much right to be wrong as you . . . TY,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

 

[RandyP]

Hi Randy:

...
And please do not quote Darby to me, as he has just as much right to be wrong as you . . .

Terral

perhaps:

Your perversion! as clay is the potter esteemed? That the work saith of its maker, `He hath not made me?' And the framed thing said of its framer, `He did not understand?' Isaiah 29:16 (YLT)


~~~~ or ~~~~

Surely you have things turned around!​

Shall the potter be esteemed as the clay;​

For shall the thing made say of him who made it,​

"He did not make me"?​

Or shall the thing formed say of him who formed it,​

"He has no understanding"?​

Isaiah 29:16 (NKJV)


~~~~~ or ~~~~~~


Ye turn things upside down! Shall the potter be esteemed as clay; that the thing made should say of him that made it, He made me not; or the thing formed say of him that formed it, He hath no understanding?
Isaiah 29:16 (ASV)


~~~~~ or ~~~~~


You are turning things upside down! Is the wet earth the same to you as the one who is forming it? will the thing made say of him who made it, He made me not: or the thing formed say of him who gave it form, He has no knowledge?
Isaiah 29:16 (BBE)




regardless ... (the) verse(s) does seem applicable to this kind of wresting of the Scripture...

Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. Acts 20:30 (NKJV)

 

[Terral]

Hi Randy:

Your perversion! as clay is the potter esteemed? That the work saith of its maker, `He hath not made me?' And the framed thing said of its framer, `He did not understand?' Isaiah 29:16 (YLT)

Can someone please explain to me what any of this has to do with the Differences Between Jesus Christ and Christ Jesus? :0) What exactly has Randy “quoted >>” from my OP work to begin offering rebuttals using Scripture? 2Tim 2:15?? Nothing!! This guy just comes to my threads and starts talking about anything that comes to his mind. Jesus Christ is the “Son of God” and God’s incarnate “The Word” (John 1:1-3) that became flesh to dwell among men. John 1:14. “Christ Jesus” is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (Son of God) who contains this entire Universe INSIDE HIMSELF. Jesus Christ is the ‘incarnation’ of Christ Jesus ON THIS EARTH, because the “Lamb of God” (Jn 1:29, 36) in heaven (diagram) is also the ‘incarnation’ of Christ Jesus, but in HEAVEN of this Adamic Universe (like this). Paul teaches the Jesus of the flesh to the Corinthians saying we know Him that way NO LONGER:

“Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we ‘have known’ Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way NO LONGER. Therefore IF [huge qualifier] anyone is “IN” Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.” 2Corinthians 5:16-17.

Jesus of the flesh walked around on this planet about 2000 years ago in the Person of Jesus Christ that ‘we’ know that way NO LONGER. Why? We recognize NO ONE according to the flesh, because ‘we’ represent the ‘new creatures’ part of the “new creation” (Gal. 6:15) where there is no such thing as Jew or Greek (Gentile), male or female (Gal. 3:28), because everything summed up IN Christ Jesus (Eph. 1 :9-10) is made into something very much ‘immortal’ and very much NEW. Go back and reread Paul’s teaching about ‘us’ and how we are raised up and seated “with Christ” (Jesus of the flesh) in the heavenly places that are IN Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:6), because then just maybe you will begin to realize that Christ Jesus (diagram) even contains those heavenly places IN Himself like everything in the heavens and earth (like this):

“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For ‘IN’ Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—ALL THINGS have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and “IN” Him ALL THINGS hold together.” Colossians 1:15-17.

Yes. I know all of this has been presented in the Opening Post and again in this thread, but Randy here refuses to address one thing from what ‘has’ been presented to show the VAST differences between Jesus Christ walking around on this earth ‘and’ Christ Jesus mentioned and taught ONLY in the Pauline Epistles. My diagrams (like this) show how Jesus Christ was raised up and seated “FAR above ALL THE HEAVENS” (Eph. 4:10) of this universe (Fig 3 to Fig 2), because that is EXACTLY what Scripture says and what God has given me to see through His Living Word.

If James has no intention of writing on the topic of this thread, then he should find some other means of wasting his time and our time with this nonsense and foolishness. If you have a case for Jesus of the flesh ‘and’ Christ Jesus being the same thing, then by all means try to make that case using Scripture. 2Tim. 2:15. Otherwise, you are adding insult to injury, only embarrassing yourself, and filling these threads with nonsense. I am,

In Christ Jesus (F+S+HS) and ‘know’ what that means,

Terral