The difference?

[the_bUg]

Hoping someone could tell me the major difference between the baptist and anglican denominations. I'm starting university this coming september and will be living in an anglican residence (St. Johns College). I was hoping, because I had read somewhere else on this forum that "baptist to anglican is a big change", what exactly is this big change? Is it only the difference between a more orthodox to heterodox (words I picked up from the Lutheran forum here... don't even know if I'm using them right) approach?

I really haven't been a faithfull follower of Christ for years, and have many personal things I will have to confront to make myself right. How do you think this will be accepted in an Anglican environment? I mean, I still have a tendency to wear mostly black but I'm a caring and compassionate person, if a little shy at times. I don't even know if this is the right forum to be positing these questions, but it's the only Anglican dedicated forum I could find here.

Are there any doctrinal differences? And excuse my ignorance, but what exactly is a liturgy? I mean, Baptists as I'm sure you know aren't much for tradition... at least not the one I attended in my youth. Don't really know what I'm asking? That's okay... neither do I. If you could just ramble in response, I'd be most appreciative.

Cheers,
bUg

PS: I like to have a very occasional drink, how accepting of this do Anglicans tend to be? I'm not trying to box you all into one "type of person", so if I've offended anyone, sorry.

 

[the_bUg]

A couple of things to add. I have never been baptised, does this mean that according to Anglican faith, I am not in fact a christian?

Would I not be able to participate in Communion at an Anglican church because I have not been baptised? (something I read in another thread)

Would I as an adult be able to do Confirmation? Would this be a required step before I am to be baptised?

Why is the progressive baptist denomination that I grew up in so very different from the Anglican tradition? I mean, reading these forums I have heard of terms that I had never previously heard such as the Nicene Creed. Is this not a factor in a Baptist church? The way our services would go was simply people would stand and sing praise and worship music for 15 minutes or so, the preacher would preach, He would pray, and you're on your way. The Traditions and rituals of the anglican faith seem so much more involved and meaningful.

I'm just really amazed that I was raised a christian for the first 14 years of my life, and how little I actually know. I only in the last year really came back to christ, but I currently have 0 christian fellowship in my life and do not currently attend church services anywhere.

I realize that you can probably tell by the way I'm writting this that although I'm 23 years old, I'm a spiritual infant... and that's cool. However, the meatier and more profound the replies the better. Again, thanx alot for the forthcoming responses.

Cheers,
bUg

 

[PaladinValer]

Hoping someone could tell me the major difference between the baptist and anglican denominations. I'm starting university this coming september and will be living in an anglican residence (St. Johns College). I was hoping, because I had read somewhere else on this forum that "baptist to anglican is a big change", what exactly is this big change?

Some general differences

1. The Anglican Church holds that the sacraments impart Grace unto the receiver. Baptists do not hold this belief.
2. The Anglican Church holds the three historical ordained ministries: deacons, priests, and bishops. Baptists to the most part have elders and "deacons" (who aren't like our deacons)
3. The Anglican clergy has authentic Apostolic Succession. Baptists do not believe such a thing exists and therefore reject it.
4. The Anglican Church believes that the Bread and Wine at Holy Communion are the Body and Blood of Jesus. Baptists do not believe in the Real Presence
5. The Anglican Church is creedal and holds onto Holy Tradition as authoritative. Most Baptists do not place much emphasis on Holy Tradition and many are not creedal (American Baptists seem to be different though)
6. The Anglican Church doesn't believe in inerrancy. Many Baptists believe that the Bible is utterly inerrant and literally true also.

Is it only the difference between a more orthodox to heterodox (words I picked up from the Lutheran forum here... don't even know if I'm using them right) approach?

It has nothing to do with "orthodoxy" and "heterodoxy." We simply hold onto the historic and traditional teachings of the Early Church. It doesn't make us any better "Christians" than anyone else, which is why we allow any Christian who has been Baptized in Trinitarian fashion to receive the Body and Blood, even if he or she doesn't believe in the Real Presence.

I really haven't been a faithfull follower of Christ for years, and have many personal things I will have to confront to make myself right. How do you think this will be accepted in an Anglican environment?

Any Anglican, laity to bishop, would be more than happy to help rejuvinate your faith.

I mean, I still have a tendency to wear mostly black but I'm a caring and compassionate person, if a little shy at times. I don't even know if this is the right forum to be positing these questions, but it's the only Anglican dedicated forum I could find here.

How does wearing mostly black have to do with Christianity? I know a few goths who are quite dedicated Christians.

Are there any doctrinal differences? And excuse my ignorance, but what exactly is a liturgy?

I've listed some doctrinal differences above. In addition, a "liturgy" is simply a fancy name for "rite" or "service."

I mean, Baptists as I'm sure you know aren't much for tradition... at least not the one I attended in my youth. Don't really know what I'm asking? That's okay... neither do I. If you could just ramble in response, I'd be most appreciative.

Holy Tradition (and Reason) are important aspects of Anglican identity, but in the "tricycle" of Scripture-Tradition-Reason, the big wheel is and always shall be Scripture. We are very dedicated to the Holy Bible and don't accept any doctrines unless they agree with the Scriptures.

PS: I like to have a very occasional drink, how accepting of this do Anglicans tend to be? I'm not trying to box you all into one "type of person", so if I've offended anyone, sorry.

Anglicanism isn't a "pietist" form of Christianity. Believe it or not, many types of Baptists are considered "pietist," although probably most aren't. Moderation is key according to Christianity (and thus, to Anglicanism as well), so no Anglican is going to say "you cannot drink" so long as you are of age and do so responsibly. True, there are those like me who've sworn off alcohol, but we aren't viewed any better or worse. Of course, if I were to drink, I would be sinning, since I would have broken an oath

I have never been baptised, does this mean that according to Anglican faith, I am not in fact a christian?

Do you believe yourself to be a Christian? In other words, do you hold Jesus of Nazareth to be the only Savior and you've dedicated your faith to Him? Do you reject the ancient heresies? Do you swear to live as Christ-like a life as you possible can? If you can say "yes," then of course you are a Christian! We Anglicans do not judge the souls of people, Christian or non-Christian; it isn't our job, but God's job. The Sacrament of Baptism however is the formal initiation into Christianity. We believe it rejuvinates the soul by remissing original sin and heals our broken souls. We also believe it imparts God's Grace upon us, so that we may be acceptable to God; considered righteous in His Sight and sealed as the Christ's own.

Would I not be able to participate in Communion at an Anglican church because I have not been baptised? (something I read in another thread)

Baptism is usually the prerequisite to Holy Communion, but talk to your local Anglican/Episcopal priest about your situation. Many Baptists have "dedication" ceremonies that are somewhat like baptisms, and the priest may receive special permission from his/her bishop to allow you Holy Communion.

Why is the progressive baptist denomination that I grew up in so very different from the Anglican tradition? I mean, reading these forums I have heard of terms that I had never previously heard such as the Nicene Creed. Is this not a factor in a Baptist church?

I'm actually surprised you've said that you've never heard of the Nicene Creed, especially since you say you are a progessive Baptist. Moderate Baptists, like the American Baptists, are more like Anglicanism than, say, Independent Fundamentalist Baptists or Southern Baptists. The Nicene Creed I believe does play a role in moderate Baptist churches.

In any event, even non-creedal Baptist churches recognize the Nicene Creed as a test of Christian orthodoxy. All Christians must adhere to the Nicene Creed, even if they aren't creedal (its one bit of Holy Tradition that all of Christianity agrees with). If you have any questions about the Nicene Creed, I'm sure we can help you understand it better.

The way our services would go was simply people would stand and sing praise and worship music for 15 minutes or so, the preacher would preach, He would pray, and you're on your way. The Traditions and rituals of the anglican faith seem so much more involved and meaningful.

This is one big reason why "non-liturgical" Christians switch to liturgical denominations. The liturgy is an ancient form of Christian worship that involves more than listening to one person's take on the Bible. Our hymns are selected for the occasion (we use what is called a "lectionary," which is a sort of standardized calender of Bible readings so that every service is based on four new readings. At the end of three years, we have read the entire Bible, and then we start anew, although the sermons most definitely will focus on a different aspect this time aroung usually), and our readings are too. We do hear a sermon, but we also celebrate Holy Communion every service. We also include the Peace, in which we embrace our fellow sisters and brothers in the Christ as our spiritual family, and in our rite of Penance, we ask God to forgive us our sins. Lots of other lovely things go on too, as you seem to already know.

I realize that you can probably tell by the way I'm writting this that although I'm 23 years old, I'm a spiritual infant... and that's cool. However, the meatier and more profound the replies the better. Again, thanx alot for the forthcoming responses.

But we are all spiritual infants! Each of us are equals in God's Sight, and none is better or worse than the other. Christianity has many great and wonderful Mysteries of the faith, both large and small, that we cannot possibly be able to fully comprehend, and even when we can comprehend what little we can, it is by the Grace of God that we do!

If you have any questions, please continue to ask them! We will not pressure you and we will treat you as the Christian that you are.

Godspeed!

 

[pmcleanj]

I like to have a very occasional drink, how accepting of this do Anglicans tend to be? I'm not trying to box you all into one "type of person", so if I've offended anyone, sorry.

Well, Anglicans don't 100% agree on anything, but on this we come close: we don't mind the occasional drink, and we even drink in church. Some of us don't drink *outside* of church, but generally don't mind if other people do.

what exactly is a liturgy?

Liturgy comes from "Laetourgia" and means something like "civic duty". It's the "work" done by the people in their formal participation in worship. In practice, it means that the priests, deacons, bishops and people all have their own clearly define roles in the worship service -- right down (in some cases) to having specific words to recite or specific movements and acts to perform. We like it -- it keeps us from getting bored during the service to be flipping through our prayer book figuring out what we have to say next.

I really haven't been a faithfull follower of Christ for years, and have many personal things I will have to confront to make myself right. How do you think this will be accepted in an Anglican environment? I mean, I still have a tendency to wear mostly black but I'm a caring and compassionate person, if a little shy at times.

Like with most churches, you'll run into both cultural Anglicans, and devout Anglicans. Around here we occasionally refer to cultural Anglicans as "the tweed set" -- redoubtable matrons whose mothers and grandmothers all ran the Womens Auxiliaries of their time and who have always been "the Right Class, Dahling". They won't like you wearing mostly black. They don't like me wearing purple with a red hat that doesn't go, either. They *really* don't like my husband's pony-tail and electric guitar. On the other Anglican ministers (both clerical and lay) tend to be caring, compassionate, intellectual, understanding, and realistic. They've confronted one or two personal things themselves.

Is it only the difference between a more orthodox to heterodox (words I picked up from the Lutheran forum here... don't even know if I'm using them right) approach?

"Orthodox" means literally "right-thinking" (Ortho like in orthogonal which means "right angle"; dox like in doctrine which means belief). Heterodox means "other-thinking" (i.e. other than "right") and may be taken as an insult by some. Anglicans are hard to insult, but I've seen others take umbrage.

Now to your question regarding differences between Baptists and Anglicans. One set of polar extremes in Christianity is the opposite doctrines of "catholicism" and "congregationalism". "Catholic" means "universal", and refers to the belief that the Church, which is Christ's Body in the world, comprises "the whole company of all Christian People". The Body is not divided in time and space. We are all members of the same Body. Congregationalism holds that the local congregation manifests in fullness the Body of Christ, independent of any relationship to other congregations or other Christians outside the local congregation, and as such can determine true doctrine without reference to other congregations.

By this definition Anglicans are catholic (though not under the Pope). Anglicans recognize "the *whole* company of all Christian people" -- including those who disagree with us(!) -- as part of the Body. Baptists are an excellent example of mainstream Congregationalism.

Anglicans believe in Sacraments -- that there are particular things we do that God uses to effect a particular result. For example, we baptize babies because we believe that God does the work of adopting them into God's family. Baptists believe that their rituals are *signs* of something that has already happened: so they only baptize "believers" because they believe it is a *sign* that the person has already accepted Christ. (Ask Baptists for a better explanation of what they believe). Similarly, we believe the Lord's Supper is an actual participation in Christ's Sacrifice of his Body and Blood -- not just a commemoration of it.

Anglicans believe in the "three-legged stool" of doctrine -- what we believe is informed by Scripture, Tradition and Reason. Baptists believe that all doctrine must come out of Scripture alone. Tradition influences our thought in a couple ways that will be strange to a Baptist: we have Bishops who have authority over our priests, and we use the historic Creeds of the ancient church as a kind of faith statement. Baptists highly value independence, and may feel that the Creeds interfere with their independence. I know of one Baptist church that nearly folded from the conflict when their minister tried to introduce the Nicene creed.

If you have not been baptized, we consider you not a member of the Church. We won't shun you as an unbeliever, but if you believe, you should be baptized. For us it is a first step, not a final step.

Some Anglican churches will offer communion to unbaptized persons, but --> heterodox <-- .

Confirmation follows baptism, sometimes immediately and sometimes after some time delay. Confirmation indicates your coming of age as a Christian, and empowers you to take up your own personal ministry as a layman.

Regards,
Pamela

 

[the_bUg]

Thank you very much for your excellent responses. I think I'm going to spend the next few days doing some reading and thinking, then I'll probably have a few more focused questions at which point I'll resurect this thread. Again thanks.


PS: about the style of dress thing. I was trying to get a feel for how judgemental on a superficial level Anglicans can be. See, in my youth I was always an outcast in my church for one reason or another. I just want to know that people won't see me (and I'm not really a goth in style or anything) and think oh... well lets avoid this one.

EDIT: one more thing to add. I guess I missused the term progressive earlier. I suppose my perception of the "high church" approach to service of the anglican church in my mind translated into traditional, and the happy time praise and worship service I always experienced as progressive. But yes, I can say that my experience with baptist faith is a very "to the letter" "bible is inerrant" type... thing... heh, I'm at a loss for expressive words. And alcohol was a definite no go.

 

[Yahweh Nissi]

Hey bUg, welcome to our little Anglican forum

Thanks for your questions, and like PV said, please feel free to ask as many as you like - we are a verbose lot and love talking about ourselves

I basically agree with what PV said, but I would just add that there are BIG differences in doctrine and practise within Anglicanism. That is both its greatest strength and its greatest weakness. For example, some do believe in strict inerrancy, although I do not myself. Also, whilst "We are very dedicated to the Holy Bible and don't accept any doctrines unless they agree with the Scriptures." is certainly true, there are big differences on what role tradition should play in interpretation, and what the correct interpretation is in general. For example, I believe it is OK for women to take part in leading services and to teach, I am unsure if women should be ordained ministers in charge of a church although I lean towards thinking it is OK, and I believe that the Bible clearly teaches that it is wrong to be a practising homosexual and therefore such should not be ministers of any kind in the church (although of course all should be welcome to services). You get many people who believe all of these are OK within Anglicanism, and many who believe none are OK. You get very 'high' church, where there is loads of ritual and very 'low' church where there is almost none, and everything in between.

Sorry if this is confusing, but I am afraid that is what Anglicanism is like

As I said, everything PV said is a good, broad summery of Aglican belief and practise.

God bless you my brother,
love YN.

 

[Yahweh Nissi]

By the way - I started writing my above response before pmcleanj's post and your reply. Sorry if it therefore seems a bit out of place or repeats anything.