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The Devil is Bad?

vespasia

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Of course he did although I tend to think of most religions doing this, even yours, sorry if I offend, however your not required to follow EVERYTHING Anton said nor do I. His philosphys as you said is rehash of other ideas put together in one from that i tend to agree with.

Of course you do not offend me saying this. I do wonder what is behind archtypes that cut across cultures though. The names vary yet the natures stay so similar it is as if they are the same.

The more I read of ancient historians and societies the more I am convinced something is copying something else.
I know conclude that something mimics the Creator or I would not have choosen Christ.
 
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SonOfLilith

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Hi SonOfLilith,

I just wanted to apologise for my earlier remarks. :( I hope I did not offend you, and I wish you the very best in all things. :)

Digit

Haha, no don't wory about mit, I don't get offended easy, I got what you would call a "hard heart" already, but I get where you are coming from, "satanist" is not the best sounding thing in the world, Anton jsut had to go and pick the absolute WORST name he could find.
 
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tapero

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Satan is not in charge of hell technically, he is imprisoned there like every other fallen angel.

Right, I suspect he's not in charge; it's not written that I know of..

Just a reminder tho, in case you missed it, since someone just posted again about it..satan murdered all of Jobs family as well.
 
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SonOfLilith

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Right, I suspect he's not in charge; it's not written that I know of..

Just a reminder tho, in case you missed it, since someone just posted again about it..satan murdered all of Jobs family as well.

Um.. I do not want to disagree or sound as if I am defending the devil but I think God takes credit for this.

"And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD."

That much above is true to what you said but this is what God said during the second meeting.

"And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause."
 
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Reasoner

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SonOfLilith,

The only evidence we have for Satan's evil is frankly God's word and his word have not been worth to much.

From your point-of-view...

The condition of the world and some people's actions seem to suggest other wise...

He's shown a remarkable inconsistency in his actions and words, and he's hardly above lying or dishonest conduct.


I realise that this is a non-debate forum (unfortunately at times) so I will not comment on this too much and on those examples that you later listed except to say that no where has God lied or engaged in dishonest conduct. Many of those examples are mis-interpretations or have been taken out of their context. True, He has allowed evil people to die by the hands of His people ... but even so, they are getting the punishment of their rebellion against God (see below where this topic props up again).

Because of Satan, humanity gained knowledge of good and evil, according to Genesis.

And through that death and suffering entered the world (as Satan knew it would). This is why Jesus tells us that Satan was a "murder from the beginning" (see John 8:44). His end game is to bring about our destruction ... the destruction of mankind and this first temptation was a major step forward in that.

Since we couldn't have possessed knowledge of good and evil before eating the fruit, Adam and Eve couldn't have known that eating the fruit was evil, so it seems a little harsh to punish them as severely as God did.

It wasn't the action that brought about his punishment, rather the intention behind the action. You see, when Adam sinned against God, through his actions he was telling God that he wanted life without God and that he wanted to decide truth for himself, independent of God (see Genesis 3:5-6, for example).

In essence, they got a taste of what they asked for ... life without the life-giving source. However, this life is only a taste of life without God, and those who still refuse to acknowledge Jesus as their Saviour will then fully know what life without God will be like after they die.

•There is no biblical record of Satan engaging in the murder of torture of any human being, unlike God, who is guilty (and proudly guilty) of commiting genocide.


Only if you don't consider directing someone to do something which you know will bring about their destruction "evil"...

In effect, it is genocide ... the purposeful intention and action that will bring about the destruction of humanity. He is proud of that achievement, which has now failed due to his crushing defeat at Calvary, and has no regrets.

It is because of our response to his enticement to sin that death, suffering, agony, disease, grief, and sorrow have entered the world. He knew that this would happen and yet to entice one to do something which would have such a result can only be considered "evil".

Just as an aside, who do you think was behind the plot to have Jesus executed? Satan thought that he would destroy Jesus, the Son of God, once and for all, only to unwittingly bring about God's redemptive plan of salvation to mankind.

•There is no biblical record of Satan ever ordering someone to kill someone else, unlike God, who has repeatedly demanded the deaths of those who commit even the smallest of offenses.

The punishment of sins and offences is proportionate to the person or thing that you committed them against. An example would be if you punched me as opposed to punching the Queen of England. You probably wouldn't get in that much trouble for punching me, but you would probably be in hot water for hitting the Queen. You see, if you sin against an infinitely holy and just God, then the punishment must be a proportionate reflection of His attributes and nature. This is why "the wages of sin is death" (see Romans 6:23). Death is the only just penalty for sinning against an infinitely holy and absolutely just God.

•Satan will not be holding a massively dramatic ceremony full of blood and death for the return of his son to Earth. God apparently will.

No, he would just leave us to die and spend eternity in hell because of our sins...

God allowed His Son to be stricken and smitten because His death was the only way to reconcile sinful mankind (whom He loved) with Himself (see Isaiah 53, for example). Far from this showing God in a negative light, it shows us just how much God loved us that He was willing to give the best to save us. He doesn't want to see us go to hell for our own sinfulness and rebellion, but to save us He would have to do the impossible and take the punishment for our sins that we could never pay.

We didn't deserve Jesus to come to Earth and save us, rather, we deserved condemnation rightfully at the just hand of God, yet He showed us grace at the cross.

Is Satan bad? Yeah, as Jesus said, "[Satan] comes only in order to steal and kill and destroy" (John 10:10). As to just how bad he is, we'll have a picture when the Antichrist comes.

Have a nice day, SonOfLilith.
 
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tapero

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Um.. I do not want to disagree or sound as if I am defending the devil but I think God takes credit for this.

"And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD."

That much above is true to what you said but this is what God said during the second meeting.

"And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause."

Naked I came from my mother's womb,
and naked I will depart. [c]
The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away;
may the name of the LORD be praised."
22 In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing.

God did allow satan to do certain things, however Job's reply above shows that God did not do wrongdoing.

His wife said to him, "Are you still holding on to your integrity? Curse God and die!"
10 He replied, "You are talking like a foolish [b] woman. Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?"
In all this, Job did not sin in what he said.

Now the trouble did not come from God but from satan, though God did allow it.

Sounds to me as satan has free will, limited though in a sense that he must get permssion to inflict certain things on others, yet it is satan that has the ideas that Job will deny God, because Job is wealthy.

And when that didn't work,

He asked to strike his body.

the thou moved against me to destroy him without cause

is merely describing the actions that satan put forth in his heinous plans.

God didn't do it, but allowed it; again God gave his creation free will

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

I don't see God mentioned in this spiritual battle being named as to who our struggle is with.

Blessings,
tapero
 
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SonOfLilith

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\SonOfLilith,

The only evidence we have for Satan's evil is frankly God's word and his word have not been worth to much.

From your point-of-view...

The condition of the world and some people's actions seem to suggest other wise...

He's shown a remarkable inconsistency in his actions and words, and he's hardly above lying or dishonest conduct.

I realise that this is a non-debate forum (unfortunately at times) so I will not comment on this too much and on those examples that you later listed except to say that no where has God lied or engaged in dishonest conduct. Many of those examples are mis-interpretations or have been taken out of their context. True, He has allowed evil people to die by the hands of His people ... but even so, they are getting the punishment of their rebellion against God (see below where this topic props up again).

Because of Satan, humanity gained knowledge of good and evil, according to Genesis.

And through that death and suffering entered the world (as Satan knew it would). This is why Jesus tells us that Satan was a "murder from the beginning" (see John 8:44). His end game is to bring about our destruction ... the destruction of mankind and this first temptation was a major step forward in that.

So..? Your not getting my point I believe. Why would you want to live without the knowledge of good and evil? No matter what kind of eternal innocent bliss it brought you. Compare a child and an adult walking through a war zone? The child would be oblivious prancing and happy despite the litter of corpses and fire surrounding it where as the adult knowing full well what is going on will be knowledgble, make decisions, etc. I would rather be the adult, knowing the incintrincies of the world around me, if that makes me a sinner and if that makes me "rebellious" toward your God, then I don't want him anyway.

Since we couldn't have possessed knowledge of good and evil before eating the fruit, Adam and Eve couldn't have known that eating the fruit was evil, so it seems a little harsh to punish them as severely as God did.

It wasn't the action that brought about his punishment, rather the intention behind the action. You see, when Adam sinned against God, through his actions he was telling God that he wanted life without God and that he wanted to decide truth for himself, independent of God (see Genesis 3:5-6, for example).

In essence, they got a taste of what they asked for ... life without the life-giving source. However, this life is only a taste of life without God, and those who still refuse to acknowledge Jesus as their Saviour will then fully know what life without God will be like after they die.

Once again, where is the bad? What is so bad about wanting to discover truth for yourself? How is this going against God and why would God not want this? Also it never says he wanted live without God? The snake told Eve it would not hurt her, no where does it imply she was rejecting God, once again she had the morals of a small child and the innocence of a baby to the world around her, she could not have possibly been able to see through Satan's "lies" nor knew of the punishment tthat could have been brought against her and Adam no more then if I told my two year old sister if she touched my computer bad things would happen...but she will do it anyway becuase she doesn't know better.

There is no biblical record of Satan engaging in the murder of torture of any human being, unlike God, who is guilty (and proudly guilty) of commiting genocide.


Only if you don't consider directing someone to do something which you know will bring about their destruction "evil"...

In effect, it is genocide ... the purposeful intention and action that will bring about the destruction of humanity. He is proud of that achievement, which has now failed due to his crushing defeat at Calvary, and has no regrets.

It is because of our response to his enticement to sin that death, suffering, agony, disease, grief, and sorrow have entered the world. He knew that this would happen and yet to entice one to do something which would have such a result can only be considered "evil".

Just as an aside, who do you think was behind the plot to have Jesus executed? Satan thought that he would destroy Jesus, the Son of God, once and for all, only to unwittingly bring about God's redemptive plan of salvation to mankind.

I don't see it as the destruction of humanity at all, I see it more as a gift.

Also I think the plot to execute Jesus was the Romans and the Jewish corrupt...

•There is no biblical record of Satan ever ordering someone to kill someone else, unlike God, who has repeatedly demanded the deaths of those who commit even the smallest of offenses.

The punishment of sins and offences is proportionate to the person or thing that you committed them against. An example would be if you punched me as opposed to punching the Queen of England. You probably wouldn't get in that much trouble for punching me, but you would probably be in hot water for hitting the Queen. You see, if you sin against an infinitely holy and just God, then the punishment must be a proportionate reflection of His attributes and nature. This is why "the wages of sin is death" (see Romans 6:23). Death is the only just penalty for sinning against an infinitely holy and absolutely just God.

That doesn't sound arrogant at all. Sinning is nothing more then breaking a law "that cab be forgiven anyway". This would put God on par with Genghis Khan, Ivan the Terrible, Hitler, etc.

•Satan will not be holding a massively dramatic ceremony full of blood and death for the return of his son to Earth. God apparently will.

No, he would just leave us to die and spend eternity in hell because of our sins...

God allowed His Son to be stricken and smitten because His death was the only way to reconcile sinful mankind (whom He loved) with Himself (see Isaiah 53, for example). Far from this showing God in a negative light, it shows us just how much God loved us that He was willing to give the best to save us. He doesn't want to see us go to hell for our own sinfulness and rebellion, but to save us He would have to do the impossible and take the punishment for our sins that we could never pay.

We didn't deserve Jesus to come to Earth and save us, rather, we deserved condemnation rightfully at the just hand of God, yet He showed us grace at the cross.

Is Satan bad? Yeah, as Jesus said, "[Satan] comes only in order to steal and kill and destroy" (John 10:10). As to just how bad he is, we'll have a picture when the Antichrist comes.

Have a nice day, SonOfLilith.[/quote]
 
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