The Devil is Bad?

[SonOfLilith]

Like one poster wrote: He brought death to all mankind.

Here's the bit about satan in the bible:

You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.



Here is what Adam was told:


The lies of satan



Death came to all mankind through the lies of satan.
Thanks for the questions.

Now I think here is where diverge in our thinking. I would blame God more for this then anything. Why was the tree there? Why would God allow Satan to be in Eden? If humanity could not understand wrong from right, what did they care if they ate the apple? Why did God have to make this a sin, surely he could have just shrugged his arms and went "Well you guys can think now, cool, no need to take your eternal lfie away" which was god's doing by cutting us off from the Tree of Life. I see where you are coming from but the actions of both characters, Satan and God I find hard to take at face value.

 

[DArceri]

Cherry picking verses is a favorite among non-beleivers. They take everything out of context. Give me a little bit to respond. I need to read the whole passage before I can respond.

P.S. I didn't realize no debating is a rule on this thread. My error.

 

[Digit]

I am not fully aware of the scriptures, at least as much as I should be so I will leave those for someone more able, however:

Is it shortsighted? I believe currently that my life on earth is all I get, why not make it count by helping others and improving myself rather then sit and do nothing beliving in an eternal life.

Do you think Christians sit and do nothing whilst believing in an eternal life? That truly is not the case.

I have been attending an Alpha course recently, and the speaker related this story, which I think is relevant here:

He took his son to a soccer game, and the usual referee was late. Being the only man there, he was asked by the wives to substitue until the referee could arrive. He did so, but only after protests saying that he didn't know the rules, the boys names, or anything. In fact the pitch they were playing on didn't even have any markings. So he started the game. After a while one child shouted, "The ball is out!" and another shouted, "It's still in.". Not knowing what to do, she said, "Play on!". A little later, another child shouted, "Foul! That was an illegal foul!", whilst another child on the other team replied, "That was a perfectly legitimate tackle." Not knowing which was true, he said, "Play on!". Eventually the football field looked like a battlezone, with kids lying injured here and there, no goals, no markings and etc. The real referee arrived and took over. The first thing he did was draw out lines, mark goal posts and talk to the boys, who he knew by name, telling them the correct rules and what he would accept and wouldn't. The game commenced, when the ball went out, the ref said, "Out!" and stopped the game, when there was a fould, he blew his whistle and resolved the issue.

The boys had a far more enjoyable game because of this. They could still do whatever they liked, within the rules of the game, and had a great and really fun time doing so. Now, liken this to our lives, without rules, we run amok and hurt ourselves and others. The Devil wants this, God does not. God is like the ref that showed up and marked the lines, showing the accepted play area, told the boys (us) the rules and penalised us for disobeying them.

I feel nothing for wordly passions but currently it is all I have, besides hell is not torment from what i have read, just a place for an absesce of god.

Please read this and then reconsider your quoted text. Particularly:
(3) Hell is conscious torment.

• Matthew 13:50 “furnace of fire…weeping and gnashing of teeth”
• Mark 9:48 “where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched”
• Revelation 14:10 “he will be tormented with fire and brimstone”

(4) Hell is eternal and irreversible.

• Revelation 14:11 “the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever and they have no rest day and night”
• Revelation 20:14 “This is the second death, the lake of fire”
• Revelation 20:15 “If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire”

All the best, and God bless.

Digit

 

[DArceri]

Is it shortsighted? I believe currently that my life on earth is all I get, why not make it count by helping others and improving myself rather then sit and do nothing beliving in an eternal life. I feel nothing for wordly passions but currently it is all I have, besides hell is not torment from what i have read, just a place for an absesce of god.

So you are an atheist. The world just popped into existance. Man has no purpose in life because we are here by accident. OK. Good luck with that.

 

[Reborn_in_Christ]

Well I would hope that no one here is accusing you of being a devilish kid (we all have our moments ). You're just asking honest questions.

On the topic of Abraham however. I don't quite see how that would have been God lying. God asked him to sacrafice his son, something that would be extremely hard for any parent. God was testing Abraham's loyalty to what he asked of him. And since Abraham was prepared to do so, he pasted the test and proved himself to God.

 

[tapero]

Anyway, somes lies and contradictions from God.

James 1:13
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:


Genesis 22:1
And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.

Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, "Abraham!"
"Here I am," he replied.

--

Exodus 23:7
Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

Exodus 32:27
And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

From these two verses it's obvious from the first verse that none were innocent.

--

Exodus 7: 3-4
Now this is not a lie but if I am not mistaken he purposly makes thye Pharoah blind to Moses so he can have an excuse to enact his revenge on Egypt?

But I will harden Pharaoh's heart,

Actually, I'm not sure what to say here but I would gather, that Pharoahs heart was hard to begin with. He didn't want to release the people no matter what happened. It also says in Romans that he gives us over to our sin..kind of the same thing.. if we want to revel in sin, have at it, God says..

--
God says he is incapable of evil however.

God is incapable of evil.

Exodus 32:14
And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Repented just means turned away.

Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.

Since God does no evil, it would take time, but I could research this for you and tell you plainly that the word evil used in that version in no way, means evil, since God does no evil.

That is all I can find at the moment from teh top of my head from my bible but I seem to find them frequently.

.

 

[tapero]

Now I think here is where diverge in our thinking. I would blame God more for this then anything. Why was the tree there? Why would God allow Satan to be in Eden? If humanity could not understand wrong from right, what did they care if they ate the apple? Why did God have to make this a sin, surely he could have just shrugged his arms and went "Well you guys can think now, cool, no need to take your eternal lfie away" which was god's doing by cutting us off from the Tree of Life. I see where you are coming from but the actions of both characters, Satan and God I find hard to take at face value.

I don't know why the tree was there. Perhaps God in his character wanted to show creation all that was. Since satans fall now evil was in the world. Perhaps He didn't want adam and eve to be ignorant that there was evil. I don't know, never studied this. They did know right from wrong.

As I showed you Eve mistook scripture, that's why i quoted what she said as well as what God said as well as what satan said.

God did not say what she said..She had scripture wrong, which will lead anybody into trouble depending on the faulty behaviors, attitudes or whatever that comes from it.

You say why did he have to make a sin, and again, I have to go back to his character. God has given all creation free will, even satan; satan had fallen, and if man chose to disobey God, the sin came to all, which is what occurred.

Take care.

 

[SonOfLilith]

So you are an atheist. The world just popped into existance. Man has no purpose in life because we are here by accident. OK. Good luck with that.

Um.. please take that kind of accusations to the debate forum, I believe in evolution currently.

Cherry picking verses is a favorite among non-beleivers. They take everything out of context.

Not taking it out of context, just saying it as I see it.

Digit

Cute story, mind if I post another story?

Alex and Mike where both young boys. Alex was brought up in a family that had a good sit down dinner every night and traditions they believed best for their children. His parents had activitys prepared for him often to do and designated play times with toys and games they deemed appropriate for him. The house rules where presented to Alex every day and punishment was swift for anything outside of the rules. Alex was also a very sheltered kid, he did not need the darkness the world had to offer him. Alex got good grades all through school to impress his parents and becuase he enjoyed the love and affection it gave them and that he recieved. As per his father's request he went to his fathers old college to study buisness since he would be taking over the family dry cleaning buisness. In college he encountered many new ideas but did not need them knowing and caring for what his family cared for. He recieved his degree and stepped into his role. He married a girl his parents liked and had introduced him to and had one son who he in turn groomed to take over the family buisness and died happily.

Mike was raised in a house where they would have meals together when it was conventiant. When it was time for play Mike was given a kiss and sent outside where he and his friends came up with rules and games to play. Like any kid he would stray from rules he was given such as playing to far from the house and would be punished although his parents would often just call him a rascal and send him to his room free of punishment. Mike's grades through school varied significantly, he knew he needed good grades but it was difficult to always make them top notch but he was happy regardless. In high school he showed a fondness for photography so his parents set him up with a camera to indulge in his hobby. His art was good enough to get him a scholarship and eventually a job. Mike liked woman as with any boy and eventualy found a fondness in a woman he knew could be bad for him and after falling in love with him she broke his heart and after a few more dates and flings found his wife and married her they to had one child. His child showed an interest in footbal so Mike often found himself rooting the the bleachers of his son's high school stadium and he too died happily.

I find the bottom life much more fulfilling having to doscover things for myself and learning the rules around me for me. Not handed to me or spoonfed to me. I find the assumption that elft alone we will hurt ourselves, is crazy. Only a FEW will hurt us but it;s always the truly wicked among people that obtain power. Even without rules we would be more of less the same as we are now.

As for hell, *shrugs* if it exist, it exist I guess, why does it have to be a place of suffering though?

Tapero

Yes I understand but, but while mwe are here I guess I cna ask anothwr question. WHY does Sin exist? I understand disobeying against GOD, but why is it a tangible thing that orevents us from recieving him. What is SO powerful God himself could not remove it and why did he have to Sacrifice HIMSELF to HIMSELF to save us from a rule he made HIMSELF.

Reborn_In_Christ

Thanks, of course all kids have there moments though, I am not saying I am a saint or anything.

It may not be a lie but definetly not the whole truth and it seemed quite a dishonest way of testing him, beside he is god, he is omniscient, he should have known already.

 

[DArceri]

Athiest are persecuted too man.

Not by christians, genuine christians do not persecute anyone. To do so would violate God's greatest commandent.

Anyway, somes lies and contradictions from God.

James 1:13
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:


Genesis 22:1
And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.

This is a translation problem from Greek to English. This is obviously speaking of testing, not tempting. God is testing his heart. Like I said before, God's whole plan for salvation of mankind rested on Abraham's faithfulness, so this is clearly a test. He wanted to prove Abrahams faithfulness. He wanted Abraham to pass with flying colors. In contrast, temptation comes from wishings of failure. The person tempting wants you to fail at whatever you are doing. The purpose of temptation is to bring you down.... Only satan tempts.

Exodus 23:7
Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

What's so wrong with this verse? This is just one in a list of dos and don't in a judicial matter. Here is the whole context in the nkjv version:

1 “You shall not circulate a false report. Do not put your hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness. 2 You shall not follow a crowd to do evil; nor shall you testify in a dispute so as to turn aside after many to pervert justice. 3 You shall not show partiality to a poor man in his dispute.
4 “If you meet your enemy’s ox or his donkey going astray, you shall surely bring it back to him again. 5 If you see the donkey of one who hates you lying under its burden, and you would refrain from helping it, you shall surely help him with it.
6 “You shall not pervert the judgment of your poor in his dispute. 7 Keep yourself far from a false matter; do not kill the innocent and righteous. For I will not justify the wicked. 8 And you shall take no bribe, for a bribe blinds the discerning and perverts the words of the righteous.
9 “Also you shall not oppress a stranger, for you know the heart of a stranger, because you were strangers in the land of Egypt.
--

Exodus 7: 3-4
Now this is not a lie but if I am not mistaken he purposly makes thye Pharoah blind to Moses so he can have an excuse to enact his revenge on Egypt?

Yes, but only after Pharaoh made the choice to harden his own heart to the point that he crossed the line of no return. He couldn't hear God speaking to him in a spiritual sense any more. The Bible clearly warns all of us not to harden our hearts. Our hearts are subject to become callused if we do not respond to God's conviction of sin in our lives.

--

God says he is incapable of evil however.

Yes. He is telling the truth again. All his actions are for the ultimate good of mankind.

Exodus 32:14
And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

God had threatened judgement, not decreed it. Remember the context of this. God had just parted the waters to save all of them and then they go ahead and start partying and lusting and worshipping false idols right in front of Moses.

That is all I can find at the moment from teh top of my head from my bible but I seem to find them frequently.

Pretty weak basis for not believing in the goodness of God and accepting His Son with Love.

 

[DArceri]

I would suggest we not debate in this thread do to the rules.

 

[SonOfLilith]

I would suggest we not debate in this thread do to the rules.

I would agree although I have many reasons why I disagree in his goodness should he exist.

 

[DArceri]

I would agree although I have many reasons why I disagree in his goodness should he exist.

Well, unfortunately we can't debate them here, but know this, I will pray that you keep your heart open for the truth. Don't allow satan to decieve you. You are to young to have a hardened heart for God. Good night for now, you are loved.

 

[vespasia]

Gaining knowledge of Good and Evil makes a person responsible for their own actions and the consequences of their actions.
Adam appears to have neglected his duty to inform Eve that eating the fruit was forbidden in an unequivocal way and what is most notable is the way the serpent presented eating from that tree and failed to suggest eating from the tree of life.
Something malefic was going on, the tree of life was allowed and yet by distracting Eve from that and pointing her at the tree of knowledge instead death entered.

Satan is merely a created being and therefore limited, its MO is deception distraction deviation and detours.
This is a problem given how human nature became from eating that fruit in the first place. We listen to those things and we do most of the evil ourselves!

Knowledge is not always good, if you know a spouse has been unfaithful the damage can destroy a marriage, we knew about atomic power and created bombs, humanity will always use its knowledge to find new and creative ways to hurt itself.

Humanity is not so much ignorant as very stupid.

Digit,

You should read The Screwtape Letters. It's a good book, but as a Satanist you will find it a sad story, since the main character is saved and goes to Heaven.

I see nothing in SonofLilths post to indicate satanic philosophy or rationale so to assume from a name that someone must be so is erroneous. Further I DID read the Screwtape letters and they made me laugh I did not find it 'a sad story' I found it an amusing one. Satanists are quite happy for the herd to go to heaven.

This is a 16 year old boy asking questions not some adept of the left hand path.

SonofLilith dear old Anton cobbled together a heap of other peoples thoughts and marketed them , strictly speaking he plagiarised from others keep that in mind when you read his writings, referencing was never his strong point. You may also find it helpful to read the website of Refuge Ministries.

 

[Digit]

This is a 16 year old boy asking questions not some adept of the left hand path.

A 16 year old boy with "Other-Religion - Satanist" in his faith symbol.

Digit

 

[tapero]

Tapero

Yes I understand but, but while mwe are here I guess I cna ask anothwr question. WHY does Sin exist? I understand disobeying against GOD, but why is it a tangible thing that orevents us from recieving him. What is SO powerful God himself could not remove it and why did he have to Sacrifice HIMSELF to HIMSELF to save us from a rule he made HIMSELF.

Well, when you said tangible in an earlier post, I was thinking about something. A person can exist that does no wrong on the outside at all. However, our hearts are dark, even though as Christians we recieve a new heart and are righteous in Christ, meaning to God we are pure, we still have darkness within because we are in this body. So let's say a Christian did no wrong at all on the outside, his inside alone would condemn him, because of the things we hold on to, the places we don't let Jesus near to heal and purify us of. We sin all our lives.. So that's about tangible sin, just thinking about that much earlier from another post.

It isn't the tanglible things that prevent us from recieving Christ at all. We come to Christ as we are, and as we grow in Christ, we turn things over to Him, and the Holy Spirit who indwells a a believer helps in this battle as does the Father and Son. There is no sin that you or I could possibly do in our lives that prevents us from recieving Christ in our lives. I may have misunderstood what you meant, but this is what I thought you were discussing. Let me know if I was way off.

What is SO powerful God himself could not remove it and why did he have to Sacrifice HIMSELF to HIMSELF to save us from a rule he made HIMSELF

I really think the key is free will. When He created all things, I believe He bound hiimself by certain things. He doesn't go against our will. He created satan, a high angel, and the angel fell, and brought evil to the world, and then, man indulged, and through that we all were condemned. Yet had no Adam and Eve done it, most likely another would have because God gave them free will. Perhaps again this is why the tree was there, God not withholding anything to be known to man that could be known, but I don't know for sure on that.

I'm fairly sure since you've read the bible some that from the OT a sacrifice had to be made for sin, an unblemished animal in the OT. It didn't actually atone for sin, but it covered it nonetheless. So, come Jesus, who was in heaven with all glory with the Father recieving praise and adoration from angels, and those who were there at the time.

It took a man to die for man. This was God's plan. Jesus is fully man and fully God. It's a faith issue again.

It's because He set things in motion from the beginning of time. He made creation gave it free will. However, when man sinned, He immediately banished them from the garden, and protected man from the tree of life, by puttning angels to guard it, for if man after he sinned ate of the tree of life, we would forever be in our sin.

Why God needed Jesus to die for our sins, was because that was what the price was for sin. A perfect sinless sacrifice; the sacrificial lamb. I don't know why; what I mean by that, is I'm not studied in the OT real well; it's rather detailed in the OT, as to requiring sacrifices for sin. As you study the OT you see why God required sacrifices and then comes the NT and Jesus comes, born of a virgin, sinless, and offers His life as a sacrifice for us. A man for a man.

Also, by that sacrifice all sins are atoned for, yours, mine, present and future and past, however we must believe in Jesus, and that He was resurrected. The Holy Spirit calls us to believe, and sometimes we hear His voice, and sometimes we don't. Christians are the ones who have heard and believed.

I have a friend, grew up in church, heard the gospel all her life, but didn't actually 'hear' and 'believe' for some reason till she was in her mid 30s. Can't explain it. Just how it is.

He will call you all your life, yet the problem is we don't know how long we have. He loves you very much.

I guess God could change anything. He could make gravity work in reverse, but it seems to me that he does not violate what He set in motion from the beginning of time.

God bless,
and thank you for your kindness in writing here.

 

[tapero]

A 16 year old boy with "Other-Religion - Satanist" in his faith symbol.

Digit

Just a note to say that we were in darkness also, and could've gone by many names ourselves.

 

[Digit]

Just a note to say that we were in darkness also, and could've gone by many names ourselves.

My comment was 0% to do with his name, and 100% to do with his faith symbol.

Digit

 

[vespasia]

When someone chooses to uses a label for themselves it does not mean it carries the defination you choose to attribute to it.
He has clearly stated atheistic philosphy not poly or mono theistic.
Given Lavayan rationale sonoflilth is correct to assert he is athiestic.

I after all choose to use LHP but CHOOSE to follow Christ.

 

[tapero]

My comment was 0% to do with his name, and 100% to do with his faith symbol.

Digit

same applies per what i said before, names, icons

 

[SonOfLilith]

SonofLilith dear old Anton cobbled together a heap of other peoples thoughts and marketed them , strictly speaking he plagiarised from others keep that in mind when you read his writings, referencing was never his strong point. You may also find it helpful to read the website of Refuge Ministries.

Of course he did although I tend to think of most religions doing this, even yours, sorry if I offend, however your not required to follow EVERYTHING Anton said nor do I. His philosphys as you said is rehash of other ideas put together in one from that i tend to agree with.

A 16 year old boy with "Other-Religion - Satanist" in his faith symbol.

Digit

It took a man to die for man. This was God's plan. Jesus is fully man and fully God. It's a faith issue again.

Guess I don't have much faith, it just doesn't feel like enough for me.