The Devil Adores the Christian Soldier

[RDKirk]

The American armed forces exists to protect the helpless and free the opressed. Sound familiar?
Jesus said one of the reasons he came was to set captives free.

Right now, for the last 30 years, the US military is being used primarily as Saudi Arabia's bodyguard and Saudi Arabia's proxy in their war against Iran (which is the 1400-year-old Sunni-Shiite war).

The US military is not protecting any helpless or freeing any oppressed.

 

[renniks]

Right now, for the last 30 years, the US military is being used primarily as Saudi Arabia's bodyguard and Saudi Arabia's proxy in their war against Iran (which is the 1400-year-old Sunni-Shiite war).

The US military is not protecting any helpless or freeing any oppressed.

We are protecting Americans from terrorist attacks. People are quick to forget we were attacked on our own soil.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I've already discussed this with you.

The Holy Spirit operates more effectively in an environment of order, even if it is an oppressive order; Satan moves more easily under the cover of chaos. That's why we see the Church growing in places like China and North Korea more quickly than it can grow in a place like South Sudan or Yemen.

Christians should never introduce chaos and rebellion, not even against an oppressive government. We are explicitly instructed to pray specifically for the freedom under those authorities to live our lives in quiet Godliness.

A government that allows that small thing, a government which merely leaves the Body of Christ free enough to operate is "good" enough for God's purpose.

That does not mean such a government is actually righteous in the sight of God. God still has plans to destroy it.

The examples we see in scripture are ancient Egypt and Babylon. Both were used by God like tissue paper, used and discarded.

In both cases, even though people of God may have operated within the government, they maintained their moral separation from the government. They never forgot that their real citizenship was in the nation of God, not the nations of men.

And they were never members of the militaries or police forces of those governments, which inevitably would have required them to kill other people of God.

Still no response to the truth of this verse...

Try again...

Rom 13:3

Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.

Clearly Jesus maintains order through authorities with arms...

Instead of a long diatribe please acknowledge that Jesus Himself sends His avenger who works to keep law and order with arms.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Let me spell it out...

The power and authority behind armed law keeping is not Satanic but Godly.

Referring to Rom 13:3,4 show me if this is wrong.

 

[RDKirk]

We are protecting Americans from terrorist attacks. People are quick to forget we were attacked on our own soil.

And you don't seem to realize why the US was attacked.

The US was attacked by Al Qaeda explicitly because the US had troops in Saudia Arabia (acting as their bodyguard against Iraq). Osama bin Laden explicitly stated that each time he attacked US personnel abroad: The first attempt against the World Trade Center, the attack on the USS Cole, the bombings of the Khobar Towers, the Ethiopian embassy, and the Sudan embassy. Each time, bin Laden said the attacks would continue until the US removed its military from the Islamic Holy Land.

If the US had not gone into Saudi Arabia to protect the Saudis and Kuwaitis from Iraq and then stayed there as the bodyguard to Saudi Arabia, there would not have been a World Trade Center attack.

Then the US would not have gone into Afghanistan at all and would not be in Afghanistan now.

 

[RDKirk]

Still no response to the truth of this verse...

Try again...

Rom 13:3

Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.

Clearly Jesus maintains order through authorities with arms...

Instead of a long diatribe please acknowledge that Jesus Himself sends His avenger who works to keep law and order with arms.

No, the kings of this fallen world maintain order through arms. Jesus uses that situation to the benefit of His own kingdom.

If you are saying that Jesus Himself is maintaining order through the armies of earthly kings, then you also have to lay responsibility of the martyrdom of the saints by those same kings upon Jesus as well.

 

[Carl Emerson]

No, the kings of this fallen world maintain order through arms. Jesus uses that situation to the benefit of His own kingdom.

If you are saying that Jesus Himself is maintaining order through the armies of earthly kings, then you also have to lay responsibility of the martyrdom of the saints by those same kings upon Jesus as well.

Not so... Such authorities can become corrupted.

I will not deny the truth of this verse.

We need more dialogue on what is meant in the Greek.

 

[RDKirk]

Not so... Such authorities can become corrupted.

I will not deny the truth of this verse.

We need more dialogue on what is meant in the Greek.

So you're saying the Roman empire was all sweetness and light when Paul wrote that letter--which was after the Roman empire had crucified Jesus and many other Jews, and after they had expelled Jews from Rome--but by the time they executed Paul. They had, what, thirty years of goodness between the rest of a history of corruption?

And does that take into account the Kim dynasty in North Korea which has continually tried to exterminate Christians? The USSR? China? Pakistan? Saudi Arabia? The Third Reich?

 

[Carl Emerson]

So you're saying the Roman empire was all sweetness and light when Paul wrote that letter--which was after the Roman empire had crucified Jesus and many other Jews, and after they had expelled Jews from Rome--but by the time they executed Paul. They had, what, thirty years of goodness between the rest of a history of corruption?

And does that take into account the Kim dynasty in North Korea which has continually tried to exterminate Christians? The USSR? China? Pakistan? Saudi Arabia? The Third Reich?

Stick to the text...

What does it actually say.

Put interpretations to one side for a moment.

... or did Paul and the Holy Spirit get it wrong ???

 

[SteveIndy]

I can see why they are angry. Their family members laid down their life for you, to keep your country free. Would you have rather all the men have simply watched Hitler take over during WW2? Unless men get up to defend their nation evil like that would have taken over.

Jesus took no issue with the centurion.
Matthew 8:8-10
8 The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”
10 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith".

Does not sound like an issue was taken at self-defence
Luke 11:21-22
21 “When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are safe. 22 But when someone stronger attacks and overpowers him, he takes away the armor in which the man trusted and divides up his plunder.

Good soldiers do this.
16. Psalm 82:4 “Rescue weak and needy people. Help them escape the power of wicked people.”

men don't always choose to go to war often they get drafted.
Romans 13
1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.

You realize soldiers don't only go to war they also provide disaster relief and carry out peacekeeping missions.

God bless them.

"You do not know what spirit you are of" said Jesus to one of His followers when they wanted to call down fire from heaven on their enemies. The practice of Christians in times past is no proof that war is compatible with the spirit of Christ. The practice of professing Christians is no test of duty; it cannot be depended upon as proof of the right. By it, you would draw the white robe of Christianity over all the errors, crimes, and corruption of Christendom. The banner of the Cross has floated heavy, blood-soaked, over pillage, rape, and violence all over the earth, making the name of Jesus a by-word and reproach to the infidel and the heathen. Please, do not bring the deeds of professing Christians as your defense of war.

 

[coffee4u]

No. The "good soldiers" in the view of the soldiers and the leaders enlisting them is NOT this. Instead, the soldiers in hire are worse than "hired shepherds" who flee when the sheep are in danger from wild animals.

They don't care enough for the poor/ the people/ to try to stop the harm coming to the people from the other soldiers and the leaders!

You don't know what is in each man's heart, only God knows that. This thread is about Christian soldiers.

 

[coffee4u]

James says it very well; My friends, don’t sit in judgment against others! If you do, or if you condemn others, you are condemning God’s Law. And if you condemn the Law, you put yourself above the Law and refuse to obey either it or God who gave it. God is the only judge, who can both save or destroy us. What right then do you have to judge or condemn anyone?

Yes my friend, take a long hard look at what that says, for who here is passing judgment on men who laid down their lives for your continued freedom. Your country is only free today because of those men, you are only free to write that poem and post it here because of them. Try writing that poem in North Korea and posting it someplace and see where that gets you.
I wonder if you had been sleeping in your bed when the enemy came in, would you have stayed there and watched them commit atrocities against your family?

You are ignoring the verses to the contrary
16. Psalm 82:4 “Rescue weak and needy people. Help them escape the power of wicked people.”

 

[coffee4u]

And you don't seem to realize why the US was attacked.

The US was attacked by Al Qaeda explicitly because the US had troops in Saudia Arabia (acting as their bodyguard against Iraq). Osama bin Laden explicitly stated that each time he attacked US personnel abroad: The first attempt against the World Trade Center, the attack on the USS Cole, the bombings of the Khobar Towers, the Ethiopian embassy, and the Sudan embassy. Each time, bin Laden said the attacks would continue until the US removed its military from the Islamic Holy Land.

If the US had not gone into Saudi Arabia to protect the Saudis and Kuwaitis from Iraq and then stayed there as the bodyguard to Saudi Arabia, there would not have been a World Trade Center attack.

Then the US would not have gone into Afghanistan at all and would not be in Afghanistan now.

No one is saying that each and every act of an entire army is just. In that sense you can point a finger anywhere, including the church. Example, priests molesting children. Does this mean you judge the entire church over the deads of a few?
Nations are attacked for many reasons, but if we had not all pulled together in the Second World War, right now your country and mine would be under German or Japanese rule.

You are fooling yourself if you think simply keeping out of things will keep you safe. Many Native American's in your own country were minding their own business when they were invaded by English, French or Spanish and swept away. What did they do to bring European invasion and genocide upon themselves? Nothing. That's not the same you say? Oh yes, it is. Let's also not forget those same people helped in the Second World War with code that was a big part in ending the war. Look up Navajo code talkers.

 

[coffee4u]

The banner of the Cross has floated heavy, blood-soaked, over pillage, rape, and violence all over the earth, making the name of Jesus a by-word and reproach to the infidel and the heathen. Please, do not bring the deeds of professing Christians as your defense of war.

Any man that commits rape or kills simply to kill without just cause in the defence of his family is not a Christian. Your post was about Christian soldiers. People can label and call themselves many things. Just because a group claims they are Christian does not make them so. Again I can point right to America and Manifold Destiny. The worlds largest genocide and the best example of men committing atrocity under the devil's leading while claiming to be Christians.

 

[SteveIndy]

Yes my friend, take a long hard look at what that says, for who here is passing judgment on men who laid down their lives for your continued freedom. Your country is only free today because of those men, you are only free to write that poem and post it here because of them. Try writing that poem in North Korea and posting it someplace and see where that gets you.
I wonder if you had been sleeping in your bed when the enemy came in, would you have stayed there and watched them commit atrocities against your family?

You are ignoring the verses to the contrary
16. Psalm 82:4 “Rescue weak and needy people. Help them escape the power of wicked people.”

All preaching or truth telling is not “judging.” Most of the judging mentioned in the N.T. is meant in a legal sense. We are told to judge righteously. We are to be discerning and to understand God’s word and to preach that word to the uninformed and lost.

I have no hatred for soldiers. I was a soldier and spent two whole years in Viet Nam, but I was blind to the truth and led astray by popular Christianity, family, and friends. Christians who think they can love their enemies while they are killing them are blind plain and simple. It doesn’t matter who the enemy is we have our commands and examples of how they are to be followed.

We are soldiers for Christ and He has placed us behind enemy lines and given us a mission. We do not wage war as the world wages war, our weapons are spiritual weapons and not carnal. This is not hard to understand and you must get it right; to be wrong on this issue is to be eternally wrong. You cannot serve two masters, you must make a choice.

I am not ignoring any Scripture but I do understand differently than you do. Things have changed with the N.T. read Hebrews 9:16-17.

 

[SteveIndy]

Any man that commits rape or kills simply to kill without just cause in the defence of his family is not a Christian. Your post was about Christian soldiers. People can label and call themselves many things. Just because a group claims they are Christian does not make them so. Again I can point right to America and Manifold Destiny. The worlds largest genocide and the best example of men committing atrocity under the devil's leading while claiming to be Christians.

There is no just cause to kill, all reasons to kill have been taken away by the cross. Now, we are to pick up our own cross and follow as did the Apostles and three hundred years of disciples before Constantine and Agustine perverted the truth, but what they said was just what people wanted to hear, as they do today.

 

[coffee4u]

I don't know anything about that American Standard Version but the New Kings James says

Hebrews 9:16-17
16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.

And the King James
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

And the NIV for good measure.
16 In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17 because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living.

These verses are about wills. (last will and testament)

So saying to a man laying on an army hospital stretcher as he endures his wounds, dying to keep your country free, the freedom you are enjoying right now "And as far as enduring suffering, God has closed His ears to thee."
You think that is rightful judging? That literally makes me want to weep. In fact, this is making me cry so I will leave this thread. But as a woman, I would be by that man's bedside thanking him profusely. In fact this is the verse that comes to mind Luke 7:36-3938 As she stood behind him at his feet weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them and poured perfume on them.

I am sorry that you went to Viet Nam, that was a war with much controversy, but you need to look past your own bitterness and what that did to you. Figuratively spitting in the face of men who kept your country safe is not the way to do it.

 

[SteveIndy]

I don't know anything about that American Standard Version but the New Kings James says

Hebrews 9:16-17
16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.

And the King James
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

And the NIV for good measure.
16 In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17 because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living.

These verses are about wills. (last will and testament)

So saying to a man laying on an army hospital stretcher as he endures his wounds, dying to keep your country free, the freedom you are enjoying right now "And as far as enduring suffering, God has closed His ears to thee."
You think that is rightful judging? That literally makes me want to weep. In fact, this is making me cry so I will leave this thread. But as a woman, I would be by that man's bedside thanking him profusely. In fact this is the verse that comes to mind Luke 7:36-3938 As she stood behind him at his feet weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them and poured perfume on them.

I am sorry that you went to Viet Nam, that was a war with much controversy, but you need to look past your own bitterness and what that did to you. Figuratively spitting in the face of men who kept your country safe is not the way to do it.

No one is spitting in the face of anyone. Those who quote from the O.T. to prove their point are using a document that has been revised by the Testator. After that revision, the Testator died making the New (last will and) Testament valid for all times. We cannot try and understand the N.T. by reference to the O.T. but we can understand the O.T. by referencing the N.T. That man laying on his death bed needs to hear the truth just like everybody else, but for him, time is running out. Hearing the truth can be as painful as amputation, but to save a good leg it may be necessary to remove the bad leg. The last thing this man needs to hear is, "God bless you son, you really gave them hell, Jesus will reward you for killing so many of them." I will not answer anymore responses so good luck to you friend.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Still no accountability to Rom 13:3,4 where God sanctions carrying of arms to defeat the wicked.

 

[wretched]

Still no accountability to Rom 13:3,4 where God sanctions carrying of arms to defeat the wicked.

The passage itself and it's context references the lost human rulers of worldly government which God did institute to maintain order vice chaos and is in no way applicable to born again followers of Christ who are not of this world. Although our citizenship in our hearts lies only in Heaven, the physical fact that we remain on earth places us under their lawful authority but only so long as this lawful authority does not contradict the teachings of our Savior. God Guns Guts