The depiction of God, and morals

[Left]

I read this as if though God is something we humans have conceived (meaning given birth to). That is the problem. Then we limit Him to our own understanding, and emulate a false version of Him. That is idolatry, and the opposite of spiritual progress (which per definition is growing closer to the real God).

Really? I, in my limited understanding, found myself overwhelmingly agreeing with Strivax.

I think there is a way, somehow, to spin both of your beliefs together.

 

[Left]

For example, it is only when we speak badly of God we create a Straw Man. Otherwise, what Strivax said applies.

This is how I spin the two beliefs together.

 

[Left]

Today I learned...

 

[PropheticTimes]

Trying to pull a holy and righteous God down to a human level is equal to bashing your head into a brick wall. God is not a human (thankfully, or we'd all be toast).

You will understand 'hell' when you understand 'heaven' and the righteousness of a holy God.

 

[Strivax]

God is the best we can conceive. If we emulate that conception, we can't go far wrong. And if, in emulating it, we come to a better conception still, and decide to emulate that instead; why, that is spiritual progress.

I read this as if though God is something we humans have conceived (meaning given birth to). That is the problem. Then we limit Him to our own understanding, and emulate a false version of Him. That is idolatry, and the opposite of spiritual progress (which per definition is growing closer to the real God).

OK. I understand your point. The thing is though, like the rest of reality, we can only know God through the medium of our own minds. The God we worship is not God-as-He-is, but God-as-we-conceive-Him-to-be. Just as the world we love is not the the world as it is, but the world our senses allow us access to. There is the actual universe, and there is the extent of our knowledge of the universe, our mental model of it. There is nothing stopping us from improving our conceptions, our knowledge, and our mental models. But this takes time and effort, and meanwhile we just have to make do with what we have.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Emli]

For example, it is only when we speak badly of God we create a Straw Man. Otherwise, what Strivax said applies.

This is how I spin the two beliefs together.

I don't want to cause trouble for you, but that isn't always the case. We can speak highly of God, and still make a straw man. Both Muslims and some Hindus speak highly of Christ, but it isn't the right version of Him. Unitarians and Jews also speak highly of Him, but they aren't worshipping God as He wishes to be worshipped (through Jesus as the divine Son of God). Deists speak highly of God as well, but do not apply His true qualities to Him.

 

[Left]

OK. I understand your point. The thing is though, like the rest of reality, we can only know God through the medium of our own minds. The God we worship is not God-as-He-is, but God-as-we-conceive-Him-to-be. Just as the world we love is not the the world as it is, but the world our senses allow us access to. There is the actual universe, and there is the extent of our knowledge of the universe, our mental model of it. There is nothing stopping us from improving our conceptions, our knowledge, and our mental models. But this takes time and effort, and meanwhile we just have to make do with what we have.

Best wishes, Strivax.

I don't want to cause trouble for you, but that isn't always the case. We can speak highly of God, and still make a straw man. Both Muslims and some Hindus speak highly of Christ, but it isn't the right version of Him. Unitarians and Jews also speak highly of Him, but they aren't worshipping God as He wishes to be worshipped (through Jesus as the divine Son of God). Deists speak highly of God as well, but do not apply His true qualities to Him.

I love you both, but of these two arguments... I'm afraid Strivax's makes the most sense to me in this particular case.

 

[Emli]

OK. I understand your point. The thing is though, like the rest of reality, we can only know God through the medium of our own minds. The God we worship is not God-as-He-is, but God-as-we-conceive-Him-to-be. Just as the world we love is not the the world as it is, but the world our senses allow us access to. There is the actual universe, and there is the extent of our knowledge of the universe, our mental model of it. There is nothing stopping us from improving our conceptions, our knowledge, and our mental models. But this takes time and effort, and meanwhile we just have to make do with what we have.

Best wishes, Strivax.

I both agree and disagree. Your depiction of reality is correct, if you remove God, and only look at general revelation. Are you a deist?

He shows Himself to us, and teaches us who He is. Through the Bible, through miracles, and through the works He performs in us through the Holy Spirit. It's not something we are to achieve by our own efforts. This is how we get to know the real God.

 

[Emli]

I love you both, but of these two arguments... I'm afraid Strivax's makes the most sense to me in this particular case.

I love you too. And I understand. You must apply the information you've been given as best as you can. Just remember to ask God about it as well. He'll be able to sort it out for you better than we can.

 

[ExodusMe]

TheoryofForms, you think hell is a poor concept only because you trivialize sin. You don't understand what sin actually is/does/means. To a holy and righteous God he is just to send every person on earth to hell. It is only by his mercy and grace that he lets you & me live.

 

[Strivax]

He shows Himself to us, and teaches us who He is. Through the Bible, through miracles, and through the works He performs in us through the Holy Spirit. It's not something we are to achieve by our own efforts. This is how we get to know the real God.

Well, seems to me that the God of the Bible has been very careful about who He reveals Himself to, and how much of Himself He reveals, and that even the ultimate revelation in Jesus is opaque to very many people in very many ways. The real God is infinite; human minds are finite. I do not think our processing power is capable of encompassing God. Only approaching Him to the best of our ability, the most our minds can hold, and that nothing more is asked or wanted of us.

But at each level of spiritual capacity, we can be sure He will guide us onward and upward.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[ExodusMe]

Well, seems to me that the God of the Bible has been very careful about who He reveals Himself to, and how much of Himself He reveals, and that even the ultimate revelation in Jesus is opaque in very many ways. The real God is infinite; human minds are finite. I do not think our processing power is capable of encompassing God. Only approaching Him to the best of our capability, and that nothing more is asked or wanted of us.

Best wishes, Strivax.

God is referred to infinite as a way to demonstrate a type of 'limitlessness' to his power, goodness, etc.. (think omnipotence, omnibenevolence, etc..). To use 'infinite' to demonstrate some type of incomprehensibility I don't think is biblical. Do you have any source material for this?

In my opinion, we should understand knowing God as "inexhaustible" that is; there is always more to know about Him. It does not mean that we cannot understand him. That is just poor biblical reasoning.

 

[Left]

I love you too. And I understand. You must apply the information you've been given as best as you can. Just remember to ask God about it as well. He'll be able to sort it out for you better than we can.

If it makes you feel any better, I took points from both your beliefs for my own, as outlined in that other thread. It took both of you to form a valid belief for me. And I thank both of you.

 

[Left]

TheoryofForms, you think hell is a poor concept only because you trivialize sin.

I no longer think hell is a poor concept. I now believe that hell is real, I just have questions about it.

 

[Emli]

Well, seems to me that the God of the Bible has been very careful about who He reveals Himself to, and how much of Himself He reveals, and that even the ultimate revelation in Jesus is opaque in very many ways. The real God is infinite; human minds are finite. I do not think our processing power is capable of encompassing God. Only approaching Him to the best of our capability, the most our minds can hold, and that nothing more is asked or wanted of us. At each level of spiritual capacity, we can be sure He will guide us onward and upward.

Best wishes, Strivax.

Once again, I both agree and disagree. We are limited, and none of us can fully understand who He is. I don't even think we can come close to it.

But there is the image of Him that He wants us to have, and that He wants to show us. I've felt His presence, I've heard His voice. He has revealed Himself to me, as John 14:21 says that He will to anyone who does His commandments. He has led me to know Him for who He is, because I asked Him to. He has given me knowledge and wisdom, also because I asked. We are limited, but He isn't. He can, and will, teach us about Him, if we stop thinking for ourselves and start listening.

 

[Emli]

If it makes you feel any better, I took points from both your beliefs for my own, as outlined in that other thread. It took both of you to form a valid belief for me. And I thank both of you.

I doesn't make me feel better, or worse. I'm not speaking from my ego. I want to edify you in your relationship with Christ. I know that He will guide you into all Truth, which I'm also praying for. I'm not worried.

 

[Left]

How do you explain when God distances Himself, Emli? I have examples of threads on here where God distanced Himself from certain individuals. And I'm prone not to believe that they "sinned too much."

 

[Left]

I doesn't make me feel better, or worse. I'm not speaking from my ego. I want to edify you in your relationship with Christ. I know that He will guide you into all Truth, which I'm also praying for. I'm not worried.

You're a good person.

 

[JoeP222w]

But the fact that we are none us perfect does not mean we are all of us depraved and immoral. Indeed, as I look around the world, I see there are plenty of good works being done by plenty of good people, of all faiths and none, who, while not perfect, are still evidently to some greater or lesser extent moral.

Then you are in disagreement with the Bible.

Genesis 6:5 The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.


Romans 3:10-12 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; (11) no one understands; no one seeks for God. (12) All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

how much more likely are they to appreciate and love a perfectly moral God who is ultimately virtuous, than some completely depraved wretch who does not know the meaning of the words moral and virtue, at all?

That is the work of God's grace. He is the one who removes the heart of stone and give the heart of flesh. He is the one who removes blindness and enslavement to sin. God gets all of the credit and all of the glory.

 

[Emli]

How do you explain when God distances Himself, Emli? I have examples of threads on here where God distanced Himself from certain individuals. And I'm prone not to believe that they "sinned too much."

There is a saying that when God is quiet, He is testing us. He does this whenever we have learned enough and we need the knowledge to "sink in", and become wisdom, either by failing or overcoming a trial. That's how I describe it anyway. He never distances Himself from us though. He is always close to everyone of us, even though we cannot feel Him.

It can also mean that we are temporarily losing our struggles with the flesh. The flesh is at war with the Spirit, and when we are relying on ourselves and our egos, or just not focusing on Him, we simply cannot hear nor feel God, who we worship in Spirit and in Truth, not in the flesh. This has happened to me so many times but He is always right where He always is, when I come back.