The definition of sin

[John 1720]

You know what the word "or" means, right?

So what you have there, is a defintion wich defines atheism as the DISBELIEF of the existance of gods or gods.

Just like I said. Atheism is about what you do NOT believe. It doesn't tell you anything about what IS believed.

See?

Nice try sir

 

[GenemZ]

But they are not the same thing.

A disbelief, is not a belief.
A belief, is not a disbelief.
​

Yet.... you believe there is nothing to believe.​

 

[DogmaHunter]

If your mom told you you were going to the fishery next week... You accepted it by faith.

My mom demonstrably exists and has a track record of not constantly lying to me.
I don't accept it by faith. I accept it by evidence.

And yes, children blindly accept whatever they are told without questioning from perceived authorities. That's why they believe in things like Santa Claus. Usually, people grow out of that as they become reasoning adults.

Since you do not know God exits? And, others have been blessed to know so?

Thousands of people claim to have been blessed by other gods then yours. Mutually exclusive gods. You can't all be right. But you can all be wrong.

Its quite simple. You don't have faith in God.

I don't have "faith", period.
That kind of faith is not a good thing. It's gullibility.

But, you do have faith in other things.

I have trust and reasonable expectations, based on evidence.
Theistic faith is not like that. Theistic faith is the "belief in things unseen". ie, belief without evidence, without rational justification.

If you continue on your chosen path? You will find out that you have become your own judge and executioner.

And there come the threats...........

Even Hitler could have been forced into obeisance to God if God wanted to.

Really? Then I consider this god to be an immoral monster.

If you had the power to stop hitler, wouldn't you? I sure would.
Any moral entity would.

If I and some others can get through the morons who make fools of themselves? That leaves your excuse at the door when its time for you have to face reality. No excuses. For every excuse an atheist gives, there will be an equally intelligent believer who faced the same obstacles. Those ones will be shown to leave that atheist to be without excuse.

God saves all kinds. He does not turn anyone away just because they lack common sense. For God knows once they are given their resurrection body, that they will have entered into a realm of ultra - super genius with the new brains they will be given. They will not remain stupid for eternity.

Uhu, uhu.

When you have a real argument instead of preaching threats, I'm here for you.

 

[John 1720]

But they are not the same thing.
A disbelief, is not a belief.
A belief, is not a disbelief.
​

Hi sir, spin it any way you wish but the prosecution and the defense at this point rests. I just see no need to go any further on the point and am content to allow the silent jury readership to decide the more plausible explanation for themselves.
Do have a pleasant evening - I guess - depending on your time zone, Patrick​

 

[Tayla]

How do you know it is real, if you can't have it validated by third parties?
Have you ever talked with an alien abductee? They also "know" what happened to them. They even pass lie detector tests.

I accept science. But notice that much in these conversations involve intangible non-material aspects of reality. Such as consciousness and subjective experience and such. Yes, they may be hallucinations, but the conscious experience itself is non-material. It seems to be outside the domain of science; outside the material physical universe. "I think, therefore I am."

I agree that the scientific method can't be used about such things and that nothing can be proved about them. And yet, they seem to exist. Merely naming them as illusions or emergent properties doesn't explain them.

 

[Par5]

Yes, this is an apologetics forum, which means that means it's a two way street when it comes to opposing viewpoints. Christianity and faith are certainly not off the table anymore than atheistic dogma. It is not only a forum where God's existence is disputed but also a forum whereby God is confirmed in the life of believers who have experienced Him and known His love.


1. Ah yes, recent in America if you count 1635 as recent

• History of education in the United States - Wikipedia

2. Yes communications and knowledge has increased greatly as prophesied.

• Dan 12:4 "But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase."

St. Peter also alluded to this period of human history​

• 2Pe 3:3 Most importantly, I want to remind you that in the last days scoffers will come, mocking the truth and following after their own lusts saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation."

But although we are taught to expect great increases the statement is one of magnitude only and not something we haven't seen before; for a Solomon stated:​

• Ecc 1:9 History merely repeats itself. It has all been done before. Nothing under the sun is truly new.

And Jesus taught us that the age of Divine Mercy would not finalize until the Gospel has been brought to every ethnic tongue. 1988 years ago that was 12 disciples and a few others that had heard and received it in one tiny nation and ethnic origin. Today it is billions in every nation on earth and in over 4000 languages and ethnic origins. His Great Commission still requires that we go to thos who have not heard but we re nearing the end of that journey. By 2025 we will have put the Word of God into every single human dialect and that commandment will have been carried out. It will happen just as Jesus prophesied it would!

• Mat 24:12-14 "And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall grow cold but they who endures to the end shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. - Jesus Christ AD 30.
  
• Mat 28:18-20 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, (ethne') baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

It is illogical to assume most atheists are objective or that even many people are objective. I think I've yet to meet a person who was 100% objective. The synonyms for objectivity are impartiality, absence of bias, absence of prejudice, fairness, fair-mindedness, neutrality, evenhandedness, justice, open-mindedness, disinterest, detachment, dispassion, neutrality. Though you seem to flatter yourself and the adherents of your worldview I highly doubt those are truly characteristics that describe you or other atheists in general. It also takes faith to be an atheist and maybe even more faith than it does to follow Christ.

Well it certainly took you long enough to get around to it but congratulations I guess in digging up an opposing view Yes, I quoted a recent study from Harvard and you quoted something from a dozen years ago. I guess most of the medical community didn't get the email that claims to be a slam dunk ha ha.
Tyler VanderWeele: Religion and Health in Europe
There are still many active research grants out studying the phenomena and sponsored by major medical universities across America and the world. There appears a wealth of research that would confirm the positive aspects but like any scientific white papers and journals there is no doubt going to be conflict and differences of opinions. We're still debating many things in medicine, subatomic particles, astronomical phenomena, etc, Why then should faith and healing from a secular study be any different? I would expect some opposing views but was merely making the point you had yet to provide any. We thank you your google search finally found one sir.
I'm not sure I understand how you draw the conclusion that my Christianity is vacuous. Maybe if you try to explain that a little better I might be able to respond to the fair-minded, neutral, evenhandedness, justice, disinterested detachment, and dispassionate accusation.

The only part of your post that interested me was this. " It also takes faith to be an atheist and maybe even more faith than it does to follow Christ." What reasons, if any, can you give for saying that?

 

[GenemZ]

I don't have "faith", period.
That kind of faith is not a good thing. It's gullibility.

For you it would be.

Trouble is that when not too bright people become regenerate they are gullible and stupid in what they will accept to believe. They will be warned, but will refuse. They are not to be our model as to how a believer is to think.

The Bible warns against such ones in various passage. But, you? You use them as your excuse for not having to think too deeply. To keep it on the surface only.

"I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who
cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary
to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. For
such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own
emotions. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds
of unsuspecting people.' Rom 16:17-18
​

So.. Those are the ones you choose for making your excuse?

Others who are saved got by them, and found satisfying sound thinking in Christ in spite of them. These ones leave you are without excuse sir.

There will be no excuse for anyone when its all over. Right now you are free to feed off of your own style of delusion. Its a world of one delusion condemning another delusion.

Be that as it may.. there are those who will seek, persevere, and find truth. Find and be stabilized in the midst of the confusion caused by conflicts around them inflicted by the dogmatic ignorance spewing from opposing sides which are always arguing around them.

"Life with all its complexity and interdependent function just appeared out from nothing?.. without a higher intelligence guiding the process?" Stupidity never had it so good!

"This all just happened by chance!" (talk about gullible)

Gullibility is no respecter of persons. Anyone is welcome.

 

[HitchSlap]

Yet.... you believe there is nothing to believe.​

In the same way not collecting stamps is a hobby?

 

[GenemZ]

In the same way not collecting stamps is a hobby?

Fact remains.. You still believe there is nothing to believe. You believe it.

 

[HitchSlap]

Fact remains.. You still believe there is nothing to believe. You believe it.

Correct, I don't believe your god/s exist.

 

[GenemZ]

Correct, I don't believe your god/s exist.

He knows that.

Your thinking proves one thing. God succeeded in creating free will. You are proof.

But, you still have a chance. You were born.

God succeeded in creating a life that is not pre-programmed in its volition. You are providing that evidence.

For that, I say thanks.

 

[HitchSlap]

He knows that.

Your thinking proves one thing. God succeeded in creating free will. You are proof.

But, you still have a chance. You were born.

God succeeded in creating a life that is not pre-programmed in its volition. You are providing that evidence.

For that, I say thanks.

You’re welcome.

 

[GenemZ]

...

“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them,
and I will raise them up at the last day. It is written in the Prophets:
‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father
and learned from him comes to me." John 6:44-45​

The interesting part. No one can know that they were being drawn until after the fact. For God does not interfere with our volition. Those who reject him, freely do so.

 

[HitchSlap]

He doesn’t interfere with our volition, but he sends us to hell for unbelief. Explain to me again how he doesn’t interfere with our free will?

 

[GenemZ]

He doesn’t interfere with our volition, but he sends us to hell for unbelief. Explain to me again how he doesn’t interfere with our free will?

The unbelief is only symptomatic.

They go to hell because the hate God. Not simply because of unbelief in itself. Hatred.

Hell (burning up) is what Satan (Lucifer) originally desired of the Lord. (It can be explained for any believers here who would like to hear why.)

As a result of Satan judging the Lord in hatred? The Lord in turn judged Satan in the same way. Satan was judged as Satan had judged the Lord. Burning up! Its really justice. (Lucifer used to be a great light bearer)

People who end up there are going to a place prepared for Satan and his angels. It was not created originally for man.

Hell will serve as a constant reminder to those there, what they would have desired for those who love God(if they could only have the power. ) Such intensity for power will be granted in eternity only to those whom God trusts.

 

[HitchSlap]

The unbelief is only symptomatic.

They go to hell because the hate God. Not simply because of unbelief in itself. Hatred.

Hell (burning up) is what Satan (Lucifer) originally desired of the Lord. (It can be explained for any believers here who would like to hear why.)

As a result of Satan judging the Lord in hatred? The Lord in turn judged Satan in the same way. Satan was judged as Satan had judged the Lord. Burning up! Its really justice. (Lucifer used to be a great light bearer)

People who end up there are going to a place prepared for Satan and his angels. It was not created originally for man.

Hell will serve as a constant reminder to those there, what they would have desired for those who love God(if they could only have the power. ) Such intensity for power will be granted in eternity only to those whom God trusts.

Hell, like your god, doesn’t exist.

 

[GenemZ]

Hell, like your god, doesn’t exist.

Fine....

 

[Par5]

He knows that.

Your thinking proves one thing. God succeeded in creating free will. You are proof.

But, you still have a chance. You were born.

God succeeded in creating a life that is not pre-programmed in its volition. You are providing that evidence.

For that, I say thanks.

If you credit your god as being omniscient, then how can there be free will? If your god is truly omniscient then it knows who will die a believer and who will not. It seems a pointless exercise for your god to tell people that depending on how they live their lives they will either go to heaven or go to hell when it already knows the fate of everyone, even the fate of those still to be born.
All I can say is that this hell place must be full to bursting when you consider the billions of people over the years who you believe your god sends there, to suffer eternal torture, for nothing more than not believing in him.
That's some ego, which is a rather human trait for a being that is supposedly perfect. Strange too, that a supposedly perfect being created something it sees as flawed, fit only for eternal damnation.
A case of the creator blaming the creation for the faulty design.

 

[GenemZ]

If you credit your god as being omniscient, then how can there be free will? If your god is truly omniscient then it knows who will die a believer and who will not. It seems a pointless exercise for your god to tell people that depending on how they live their lives they will either go to heaven or go to hell when it already knows the fate of everyone, even the fate of those still to be born.

First off. Its not how you live your life that determines if you are going to go to heaven or hell. Some people live like hell and will go to heaven, and some people act morally superior, and will be going to hell. You're not saved from hell by being morally good, though many who believe in Christ have chosen to be morally good.

How does God knowing how you will freely choose make you not have free will to choose? How? When a parent can plainly see how a child is going to react in a matter? Does the parents knowing this, hinder the child's free will to choose? How?

 

[Par5]

First off. Its not how you live your life that determines if you are going to go to heaven or hell. Some people live like hell and will go to heaven, and some people act morally superior, and will be going to hell. You're not saved from hell by being morally good, though many who believe in Christ have chosen to be morally good.

How does God knowing how you will freely choose make you not have free will to choose? How? When a parent can plainly see how a child is going to react in a matter? Does the parents knowing this, hinder the child's free will to choose? How?

Parents do not always know how a child will react to things. You bring your children up to the best of your ability, but sometimes even the most responsible of parents have children who go off the rails.
You believe your god knows what everyone will do, even before they know it themselves. Parents, nor anyone else, does not have that ability.
An omniscient creator would know from the beginning of mankind that through the ages billions of people would be non-believers and therefore destined to suffer eternal torment. It seems strange that a god that Christians claim is good, merciful and just and knows what it knows, still plans to send billions to suffer for all eternity. I see nothing good, merciful or just in that.
Of course, if you believe the biblical accounts of your god, giving details of its penchant for mass slaughter, I don't suppose it's all that surprising.
Such behaviour is more akin to that of human despots, which leads me to say that your god, like all other gods, is a figment of man's own imagination.