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The definition of sin

2PhiloVoid

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Let's clear up this contradiction and sin motif in Biblical literature. Biblical contradictions are seemingly easy to point out. However, there are a wide range of varieties as to why the Biblical texts are contradictory, generally this has to do with P, E, J, D sources in the Biblical texts and much later this has to do with Church Councils in the New Testament, each author is bringing to the table a variation of translation concerning the Bible, historically.

However, there are such issues in the Bible as humans being created in the image of God which tends to violate holy law itself.

Divine image and representation concerning the creation of human life is an exception to the rule of creation by divine fiat, as signaled by the replacement of the simple ... Hebrew command (the jussive) with a personal, strongly expressed resolve, the cohortative. Whereas the earlier jussives expressed God’s will with a third person, nonagentive verb form, the cohortative is both first person and agentive. Unlike the jussives, too, the cohortative doesn’t itself create but prepares or introduces the creative act. With justification, then:

The man and the woman in Gen. I ... are ... created ... by God’s own personal decision (v. 26)—a decision unique in the Priestly document’s whole creation account.

Similarly, God participates more intimately and intensively in this than in the earlier works of creation. As the cohortative form suggests, P’s (P source) God anticipates a more active role, greater control, and stronger personal involvement in the human creation than in his previous seven creative acts. God’s involvement also runs deeper. As P (P source) tells the story, this last creative act coincides with an extraordinary divine event. When God initiates human creation, God takes the opportunity to identify himself, for the first time, in the self-referential first person. At the same time, God’s identity is invested in this human creature and is represented by two characteristics: a divine image and a divine likeness. Humanity resembles divinity through two inherent yet divine features. Of all God’s creations, only humanity is envisioned as comparable to divinity.

V. 27 will corroborate and will execute this vision. Its first clause names the creator, the human creature, and the divine image that God invests in human beings (v. 27aα ). Overlapping with the first, the second clause identifies the divine possessor of the image (v. 27aâ ). The third clause deletes reference to the image yet describes the human creature as a constituent pair (v. 27b). V. 27 therefore will reiterate the unique relationship between God and humanity, explains the relationship, and tracks it from its source to its individual heirs. So, the interpretive details of Gen :26–27 are unclear at best.

To be sure, the characteristics uniquely shared by creator and creature assert “the incomparable nature of human beings and their special relationship to God.”

But when its two nominal components—‘image’and ‘likeness’—are queried, the assertion of incomparability is quickly qualified. For example, what does the ‘image’ of God signify, and how does the human race reflect it? Or, what is a divine ‘likeness’, how does it compare to the divine ‘image’, and how is the ‘likeness’ reflected in humankind? The responses are often unsatisfying. Very little distinction can be made between the two words. The two terms are used interchangeably and indiscriminately and one has to conclude that “image” and “likeness” are, like “prototype” and “original,” essentially equivalent expressions. They do not seek to describe two different sorts of relationship, but only a single one; the second member of the word-pair does not seek to do more than in some sense to define the first more closely and to reinforce it. That is to say, it seeks so to limit and to fix the likeness and accord between God and man that, in all circumstances, the uniqueness of God will be guarded. These statements, then, testify to the problem.

The ‘image’ is problematic in its own right. For in most of its occurrences, íìö ‘image’ is a concrete noun. And as such, it refers to a representation of form, figure, or physical appearance.

Thus if the human race is created in the ‘image of God’, there is an unavoidable logical implication: God must also be material, physical, corporeal, and, to a certain degree, humanoid. Problematic, too, is the intertextual implication of a concrete, human ‘image’. Indeed, the very existence of such an ‘image’ seems to violate the second commandment, which forbids idols and idolatry (Ex 20: – ; Dt : –10; see also Dt :15–19, and, within the Priestly tradition, Lev 19: , 26: ).

First off, I was addressing @Nihilist Virus, so while I appreciate your attempt at exposition regarding the concept of "the image," you might want to notice that I ended my post to him with a > :rolleyes:. This means I was being "tongue-in-cheek" about what I was saying, indicating that I was attempting some word play.

So, maybe save yourself some time, next time, and ask me what I was meaning to get at before trudging ahead to address something that I was not addressing.

Secondly, if you're going to try to lay something out in academic fashion, please cite your sources. :cool:

Thirdly, please don't write to us "Christians" as if we couldn't possibly have had any access to any kind of academic sources in support of our own positions. You've talked to me in the past, and you should know already that I also have sources upon which I support my views. Moreover, this is a Christian Apologetics section in which the apologetics being done here is supposed to be "Christian" in nature, not pagan.

Thanks,
2PhiloVoid
 
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ShamashUruk

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First off, I was addressing @Nihilist Virus, so while I appreciate your attempt at exposition regarding the concept of "the image," you might want to notice that I ended my post to him with a > :rolleyes:. This means I was being "tongue-in-cheek" about what I was saying, indicating that I was attempting some word play.

So, maybe save yourself some time, next time, and ask me what I was meaning to get at before trudging ahead to address something that I was not addressing.

Secondly, if you're going to try to lay something out in academic fashion, please cite your sources. :cool:

Thirdly, please don't write to us "Christians" as if we couldn't possibly have had any access to any kind of academic sources in support of our own positions. You've talked to me in the past, and you should know already that I also have sources upon which I support my views. Moreover, this is a Christian Apologetics section in which the apologetics being done here is supposed to be "Christian" in nature, not pagan.

Thanks,
2PhiloVoid
That was a terrible attempt at word play.

In His Own Image and Likeness: Humanity, Divinity, and Monotheism W. Randall Garr, since we are getting hung up on references, I generally see Christians referencing the Bible without actually posting the verse it is from, I guess just doing the same thing really irritates you guys.

Yes we have discussed in the past, as I recall you became quite defensive and irritated. The term "pagan" is demeaning term, the proper term is Polytheism. Christianity stems in root from Polytheism, though this is an apologetic' discussion, it isn't outside of the scope of apologetic' to remind the Christian where they come from.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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That was a terrible attempt at word play.

In His Own Image and Likeness: Humanity, Divinity, and Monotheism W. Randall Garr, since we are getting hung up on references, I generally see Christians referencing the Bible without actually posting the verse it is from, I guess just doing the same thing really irritates you guys.
I'm not all of the other guys, and I have no problem citing my sources.

Yes we have discussed in the past, as I recall you became quite defensive and irritated. The term "pagan" is demeaning term, the proper term is Polytheism. Christianity stems in root from Polytheism, though this is an apologetic' discussion, it isn't outside of the scope of apologetic' to remind the Christian where they come from.
...I don't think I'm the one who became overly defensive. That may have been someone else. But, as for the latter issue, I'm not one who will agree that Christianity has definitely "come out of" polytheism.
 
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ShamashUruk

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I'm not all of the other guys, and I have no problem citing my sources.
Good for you, one that is not making up his or her own Bible based on a verse.

...I don't think I'm the one who became overly defensive. That may have been someone else.
As I recall you did, but doesn't matter now.

But, as for the latter issue, I'm not one who will agree that Christianity has definitely "come out of" polytheism.
Israelite's generally come out of Canaan, they are structured as polytheistic and finally end up being monotheistic. Hence, monotheism develops via polytheism.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Good for you, one that is not making up his or her own Bible based on a verse.

As I recall you did, but doesn't matter now.

Israelite's generally come out of Canaan, they are structured as polytheistic and finally end up being monotheistic. Hence, monotheism develops via polytheism.

Well, if it was polytheism that came first, then just saying so in the way that you do would seem to me to imply that either: 1) polytheistic religion is the "real" truth, and/or 2) the Bible is "just mainly fiction...and by the way, so is Yahweh." Of course, I'm sure you can understand that as a Christian, I can't really stomach either possibility and STILL remain a Christian.

So yeah, based on my own studies, however meager they may be when compared to yours, I think I'll take a more agnostic approach to this issue of theistic origins among biblical peoples and say, "no one really knows for sure." Otherwise, I can't see that I've got a really good reason why I should even be Christian, let alone even remain a monotheist. ;)
 
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ShamashUruk

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Well, if it was polytheism that came first, then just saying so in the way that you do would seem to me to imply that either: 1) polytheistic religion is the "real" truth, and/or 2) the Bible is "just mainly fiction...and by the way, so is Yahweh." Of course, I'm sure you can understand that as a Christian, I can't really stomach either possibility and STILL remain a Christian.

So yeah, based on my own studies, however meager they may be when compared to yours, I think I'll take a more agnostic approach to this issue of theistic origins among biblical peoples and say, "no one really knows for sure." Otherwise, I can't see that I've got a really good reason why I should even be Christian, let alone even remain a monotheist. ;)

It's not the way "I say it", that is just the way that history indicates.

Taking an agnostic approach doesn't really do much to rectify history in that manner, you could alternately become an atheist and it still will not change the annals of history.

I don't know what "no one really knows for sure even means", first civilization is in Sumer, from thereon we see development into different sects of Polytheism, leading to the road that is Monotheism.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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It's not the way "I say it", that is just the way that history indicates.

Taking an agnostic approach doesn't really do much to rectify history in that manner, you could alternately become an atheist and it still will not change the annals of history.

I don't know what "no one really knows for sure even means", first civilization is in Sumer, from thereon we see development into different sects of Polytheism, leading to the road that is Monotheism.

The Annals of History??? Yeah, I don't take the annals as completely objective; if there is anything objective to ancient history, it's our primary understanding that all human oral and written documents and artifacts by which we procure our current secondary understanding about the past, particularly the further back we attempt to look "in time," are to some degree, sometimes a high degree, merely made up of representations which have been artfully supplied by authors and craftsmen who lived in the past, on one hand, and our own modern interpretations about those same objects, on the other hand. This is the case with the stories and accounts in the Bible; even more so with the older places and times of Sumeria and Old Babylon.

So yeah, when I think of Sumeria, I think of a petrified piece of meat that's going to need a whole lot of peppering and salting that comes from the study of historiography and the philosophy of history, along with taking in a whole heap of epistemic considerations that go into what we think we interpret in the process of doing archaeology. :cool:
 
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ShamashUruk

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The Annals of History??? Yeah, I don't take the annals as completely objective; if there is anything objective to ancient history, it's our primary understanding that all human oral and written documents and artifacts by which we procure our current secondary understanding about the past, particularly the further back we attempt to look "in time," are to some degree, sometimes a high degree, merely made up of representations which have been artfully supplied by authors and craftsmen who lived in the past, on one hand, and our own modern interpretations about those same objects, on the other hand. This is the case with the stories and accounts in the Bible; even more so with the older places and times of Sumeria and Old Babylon.
Either you haven't actually read any Cuneiform or you only read the Bible, I can't tell which one it is. Sumer indicates Polytheism by the many Gods that are praised in Cuneiform texts, even in exorcist rituals Gods are called to expel the vermin that pesters the human. I'm not totally sure the Bible is aptly just making a representation or it is actually asserting a postulation. There isn't anything non figurative about the praise of one God in Nippur (Nibru: Sumerian transliteration) or praise of another God in Ur, those Cuneiform that predate any Papyrus or Parchment writings are clear. Then again you could have a point, for example the flood of Noah is originally Ziusudra, but in fact those deluge epics could have been due to the ice age.

So yeah, when I think of Sumeria, I think of a petrified piece of meat that's going to need a whole lot of peppering and salting that comes from the study of historiography and the philosophy of history, along with taking in a whole heap of epistemic considerations that go into what we think we interpret in the process of doing archaeology.

Cuneiform is simply translated by linguists, as Semitic writings are derived from Sumerian (a Pre Semitic, Non Semitic, agglutinative tongue), there isn't much "peppering" or "salting" going on. Philosophy I wouldn't get overly hung up on, philosophy doesn't necessarily resolve an outcome, it only ponders an unmet goal. Christians, get so hung up on Greek and Roman Patheos and think that Christian history only predates to the Greek, ignorning that the Israelite's in the Old Testament are not Greek but Canaanite's, but instead Christian theology shifts its focus to Greek and Roman cultures.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Either you haven't actually read any Cuneiform or you only read the Bible, I can't tell which one it is. Sumer indicates Polytheism by the many Gods that are praised in Cuneiform texts, even in exorcist rituals Gods are called to expel the vermin that pesters the human. I'm not totally sure the Bible is aptly just making a representation or it is actually asserting a postulation. There isn't anything non figurative about the praise of one God in Nippur (Nibru: Sumerian transliteration) or praise of another God in Ur, those Cuneiform that predate any Papyrus or Parchment writings are clear. Then again you could have a point, for example the flood of Noah is originally Ziusudra, but in fact those deluge epics could have been due to the ice age.
Here, you're showing your academic strength. And I think I generally understand the cogency of what you're points are.

Cuneiform is simply translated by linguists, as Semitic writings are derived from Sumerian (a Pre Semitic, Non Semitic, agglutinative tongue), there isn't much "peppering" or "salting" going on. Philosophy I wouldn't get overly hung up on, philosophy doesn't necessarily resolve an outcome, it only ponders an unmet goal. Christians, get so hung up on Greek and Roman Patheos and think that Christian history only predates to the Greek, ignorning that the Israelite's in the Old Testament are not Greek but Canaanite's, but instead Christian theology shifts its focus to Greek and Roman cultures.
But, here you're showing your academic weakness. And your response tells me you don't understand what I'm getting at ...
 
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ShamashUruk

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Here, you're showing your academic strength. And I think I generally understand the cogency of what you're points are.
No I don't think you do, you by the next line are continuing to fail to do so.

But, here you're showing your academic weakness. And your response tells me you don't understand what I'm getting at ...
This tells me you haven't actually read much literature on the subject of Ancient Near East, most of what is translated is not meant to bring up a topic of epistemology, archaeologists, assyriologists, linguists, are only explaining texts and or writs, they are not dealing with for example the ontology of Mesopotamia. There is a paradigm shift and but not discourse from interpreting texts. The mainframe of philosophy fails in this avenue, so it isn't that I don't understand your position, but your position makes very little sense.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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No I don't think you do, you by the next line are continuing to fail to do so.
...that's why I said "generally" rather than specifically. I realize that you're widely read on all this stuff dealing with ancient cultures and religions and that I may be missing some things. True enough! But, on the other hand, I also realize that you're addressing me as if I couldn't possibly have read anything at all of substance ...

This tells me you haven't actually read much literature on the subject of Ancient Near East, most of what is translated is not meant to bring up a topic of epistemology, archaeologists, assyriologists, linguists, are only explaining texts and or writs, they are not dealing with for example the ontology of Mesopotamia. There is a paradigm shift and but not discourse from interpreting texts. The mainframe of philosophy fails in this avenue, so it isn't that I don't understand your position, but your position makes very little sense.
...and that is my point. The literature often doesn't touch upon nuances that it should touch upon in regard to epistemology, archaeology, assyriology, linguistics, historical writing, historiography, and the philosophy of history. And I realize that taking all of these things (among other things) into consideration requires a lot of time and work--to which I say, "Why, yes, yes it does! And that's just too bad that it does!"

Because for me, in my thinking, ALL OF THESE THINGS [if possible, and it is a big if many times] have to be touched upon, brought in, accounted for in some way, and applied for consideration in the overall matrix of thought by which any one of us might evaluate the possibility that .... the Bible just may be correct (or not). Otherwise, if we can't do this--and often most of us can't--then the best we each can do is say, "Well, so far, it all kind of looks like (fill in the blank), so I believe that the Bible is true, OR I do not believe the Bible is true." And no one has the final word.

In sum, if all one does is learn about WHAT the ancient cultures believed, and as to how they developed and compare, that doesn't really establish much for belief either way, other than to perhaps provide a chronology of historical considerations about ancient cultures. At least, that's how I see it all in my estimation.
 
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ShamashUruk

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...that's why I said "generally" rather than specifically. I realize that you're widely read on all this stuff dealing with ancient cultures and religions and that I may be missing some things. True enough! But, on the other hand, I also realize that you're addressing me as if I couldn't possibly have read anything at all of substance ...

Before I respond, whatever your religious belief is (in your case I assume you are a Christian and believe the Bible is not mystical fiction), it doesn't necessarily reflect history, but in some small way it is part of history.

However, my disagreeing with atheists I will generally infer the possibility of a God or higher being existing, whether that specific God is active or part of "anything" is not relevant for the discussion with an atheist. Because, the atheist doesn't see a God existing, but cannot generally deny the possibility. There isn't much else to argue at that point, unless you want to purport theories from physicists concerning wormholes and time travel.


The attempt to compare Atheism and Polytheism as sub par to Monotheism is futile, all three "ism" have different definitions and one "ism" is not rendered conjectural without a proper study into each field. I have an issue with such discussions, where information is found "off the fly" and Bible verses are slammed in the discussion as "missiles" to refute secular philosophy.


You requested resources I believe or citation of sources, you can email (PM me for email) or you can get these yourself:


1) https://www.amazon.com/Ark-Before-Noah-Decoding-Story/dp/0385537115

2) https://www.amazon.com/His-Own-Image-Likeness-Monotheism/dp/9004129804


...and that is my point. The literature often doesn't touch upon nuances that it should touch upon in regard to epistemology, archaeology, assyriology, linguistics, historical writing, historiography, and the philosophy of history. And I realize that taking all of these things (among other things) into consideration requires a lot of time and work--to which I say, "Why, yes, yes it does! And that's just too bad that it does!" Because for me, in my thinking, ALL OF THESE THINGS [if possible, and it is a big if many times] have to be touched upon, brought in, accounted for in some way, and applied for consideration in the overall matrix of thought by which any one of us might evaluate the possibility that .... the Bible just may be correct (or not). Otherwise, if we can't do this--and often most of us can't--then the best we each can do is say, "Well, so far, it all kind of looks like (fill in the blank), so I believe that the Bible is true, OR I do not believe the Bible is true." And no one has the final word. In sum, if all one does is learn about WHAT the ancient cultures believed, and as to how they developed and compare, that doesn't really establish much for belief either way, other than to perhaps provide a chronology of historical considerations about ancient cultures. At least, that's how I see it all in my estimation.



So let's get some defining authorities out of the way to approach this conundrum, it seems you have coupled epistemeology and philosophy alongside assyriology, archaeology, linguistics and it would be unreasonable to have a fused approach.

Bare in mind that epistemeology and philosophy aren't contemporaneous concepts in ancient near eastern cultures necessarily, epistemeology occurs etymologically by its very nature from the Greek, we will not see this concept in Sumer. Philosophy from the Greek philosophia occurs etymologically in the Greek as well. We really do not see these concepts in Sumer; they are theorized much later on. However, confusing as it may be, we do see a pattern of doctrines stemming from Sumer and on. Archaeology, assyriology, and linguistics are developed as time pressed on from Sumer, Gobekli Tepe, etc...

There is generally a two tiered approach to ancient cultures:

1) Research perspective

2) Religious perspective


For example in a research perspective:

Genesis 6:14–16 Make yourself an ark (tēvāh) of gopher wood [came the instruction]; make rooms (qinnīm) in the ark, and cover it (kāpar) inside and out with pitch (kopher). This is how you are to make it: the length of the ark three hundred cubits, its width fifty cubits, and its height thirty cubits. Make a roof for the ark, and finish it to a cubit above; and put the door of the ark in its side; make it with lower, second, and third decks.


The biblical word tēvāh, which is used for the arks of Noah and Moses, occurs nowhere else in the Hebrew Bible. The flood and baby episodes are thus deliberately associated and linked in Hebrew just as the Atrahasis and Sargon Arks are linked associatively in Babylonia. Now for something extraordinary: no one knows what language tēvāh is or what it means. The word for the wood, gopher, is likewise used nowhere else in the Hebrew Bible and no one knows what language or what kind of wood it is. This is a peculiar state of affairs for one of the most famous and influential paragraphs in all of the world’s writing!

The rsearch clearly show no ambiguity concerning the word tēvāh and its usage in Genesis 6:14-16, I would suggest a comparison in strong's concordance as well. BTW, Strong's concordance was constructed by James Strong, in an attempt to provide an index to the Bible.

Example of religious perspective:

We could conclude that the usage of tēvāh and it has no clear and distinct syntax in Biblical literature for example if we were to use strong's concordance for Genesis 6:14-16

"Make yourself an {tevah: to be startled or alarmed} (tēvāh) of gopher wood [came the instruction]"

Tēvāh in Strong:

Strong's Hebrew: 8429. תְּוַהּ (tevah) -- to be startled or alarmed

From a religious perspective this language fails in a Biblical sense to properly describe an ark to be built for a coming flood. It could even be concluded that the usage of the word tēvāh reflects a much older flood epic used from the Utnapishti’s Ark in the older Babylonian epic of the flood and that the Judeans perforce this word to fit an ark epic religiously. The religious perspective is that the ark epic is largely borrowed quite possibly from Babylon as well with descriptions from Akkadian flood epics and the original Sumerian epic of Ziusudra. Whereas the previous "research perspective" only indicates that the usage of the word tēvāh is largely unknown.

Let's say we wanted to analyze this with a set of epistemology eyes, it would be difficult to do so and rather unnecessary. The only "truth" we will find is that the usage of a word to describe a Biblical epic is lacking, whereas the belief and justification of these ancient cultures is rooted in their dealings with the world around them, which by large accounts we can only rely on certain sources concerning archaeology, even in linguistics, and assyriology as well (I would exclude neo Assyria from the fray, mostly).

The concept of epistemology in a Biblical sense; and is a hot debated topic among Atheists, Agnostics and Christians alike. This includes questions quite possibly such as, is the Bible true? Is there a God, so on and so forth? BTW these are two entirely different animals of the same color (Bible being true or not and is there a God), God in a large sense applies to a wide variety of beliefs, while whether or not the Bible is true and is the inerrant word of the Judeo-Christian God assumes that morals stem from Biblical literature and that the only way to Heaven is via Jesus in Christian mythologies.

A combination of research and religious perspectives can fit a larger pattern concerning the creation of mankind. BTW this still does not fit a pattern of epistemology exclusively, it really only shows in context the various patterns of Biblical monotheism as reflected in its own literature:

Divine image and representation as the creation of human life is an exception to the rule of creation by divine fiat, as signaled by the replacement of the simple ... Hebrew command (the jussive) with a personal, strongly expressed resolve, the cohortative. Whereas the earlier jussives expressed God’s will with a third person, nonagentive verb form, the cohortative is both first person and agentive. Unlike the jussives, too, the cohortative doesn’t itself create but prepares or introduces the creative act. With justification, then:

The man and the woman in Gen. I ... are ... created ... by God’s own personal decision (v. 26)—a decision unique in the Priestly document’s whole creation account.

Similarly, God participates more intimately and intensively in this than in the earlier works of creation. As the cohortative form suggests, P’s God anticipates a more active role, greater control, and stronger personal involvement in the human creation than in his previous seven creative acts. God’s involvement also runs deeper. As P tells the story, this last creative act coincides with an extraordinary divine event. When God initiates human creation, God takes the opportunity to identify himself, for the first time, in the self-referential first person. At the same time, God’s identity is invested in this human creature and is represented by two characteristics: a divine image and a divine likeness. Humanity resembles divinity through two inherent yet divine features. Of all God’s creations, only humanity is envisioned as comparable to divinity.

V. 27 will corroborate and will execute this vision. Its first clause names the creator, the human creature, and the divine image that God invests in human beings (v. 27aα ). Overlapping with the first, the second clause identifies the divine possessor of the image (v. 27aâ ). The third clause deletes reference to the image yet describes the human creature as a constituent pair (v. 27b). V. 27 therefore will reiterate the unique relationship between God and humanity, explains the relationship, and tracks it from its source to its individual heirs. So, the interpretive details of Gen :26–27 are unclear at best.

To be sure, the characteristics uniquely shared by creator and creature assert “the incomparable nature of human beings and their special relationship to God.”

But when its two nominal components—‘image’and ‘likeness’—are queried, the assertion of incomparability is quickly qualified.

For example, what does the ‘image’ of God signify, and how does the human race reflect it? Or, what is a divine ‘likeness’, how does it compare to the divine ‘image’, and how is the ‘likeness’ reflected in humankind? The responses are often unsatisfying. Very little distinction can be made between the two words. The two terms are used interchangeably and indiscriminately and one has to conclude that “image” and “likeness” are, like “prototype” and “original,” essentially equivalent expressions. They do not seek to describe two different sorts of relationship, but only a single one; the second member of the word-pair does not seek to do more than in some sense to define the first more closely and to reinforce it. That is to say, it seeks so to limit and to fix the likeness and accord between God and man that, in all circumstances, the uniqueness of God will be guarded. These statements, then, testify to the problem.

The ‘image’ is problematic in its own right. For in most of its occurrences, íìö ‘image’ is a concrete noun. And as such, it refers to a representation of form, figure, or physical appearance.

Thus if the human race is created in the ‘image of God’, there is an unavoidable logical implication: God must also be material, physical, corporeal, and, to a certain degree, humanoid. Problematic, too, is the intertextual implication of a concrete, human ‘image’. Indeed, the very existence of such an ‘image’ seems to violate the second commandment, which forbids idols and idolatry (Ex 20: – ; Dt : –10; see also Dt :15–19, and, within the Priestly tradition, Lev 19: , 26: ).
 
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Before I respond, whatever your religious belief is (in your case I assume you are a Christian and believe the Bible is not mystical fiction), it doesn't necessarily reflect history, but in some small way it is part of history.

However, my disagreeing with atheists I will generally infer the possibility of a God or higher being existing, whether that specific God is active or part of "anything" is not relevant for the discussion with an atheist. Because, the atheist doesn't see a God existing, but cannot generally deny the possibility. There isn't much else to argue at that point, unless you want to purport theories from physicists concerning wormholes and time travel.


The attempt to compare Atheism and Polytheism as sub par to Monotheism is futile, all three "ism" have different definitions and one "ism" is not rendered conjectural without a proper study into each field. I have an issue with such discussions, where information is found "off the fly" and Bible verses are slammed in the discussion as "missiles" to refute secular philosophy.


You requested resources I believe or citation of sources, you can email (PM me for email) or you can get these yourself:


1) https://www.amazon.com/Ark-Before-Noah-Decoding-Story/dp/0385537115

2) https://www.amazon.com/His-Own-Image-Likeness-Monotheism/dp/9004129804






So let's get some defining authorities out of the way to approach this conundrum, it seems you have coupled epistemeology and philosophy alongside assyriology, archaeology, linguistics and it would be unreasonable to have a fused approach.

Bare in mind that epistemeology and philosophy aren't contemporaneous concepts in ancient near eastern cultures necessarily, epistemeology occurs etymologically by its very nature from the Greek, we will not see this concept in Sumer. Philosophy from the Greek philosophia occurs etymologically in the Greek as well. We really do not see these concepts in Sumer; they are theorized much later on. However, confusing as it may be, we do see a pattern of doctrines stemming from Sumer and on. Archaeology, assyriology, and linguistics are developed as time pressed on from Sumer, Gobekli Tepe, etc...

There is generally a two tiered approach to ancient cultures:

1) Research perspective

2) Religious perspective


For example in a research perspective:

Genesis 6:14–16 Make yourself an ark (tēvāh) of gopher wood [came the instruction]; make rooms (qinnīm) in the ark, and cover it (kāpar) inside and out with pitch (kopher). This is how you are to make it: the length of the ark three hundred cubits, its width fifty cubits, and its height thirty cubits. Make a roof for the ark, and finish it to a cubit above; and put the door of the ark in its side; make it with lower, second, and third decks.


The biblical word tēvāh, which is used for the arks of Noah and Moses, occurs nowhere else in the Hebrew Bible. The flood and baby episodes are thus deliberately associated and linked in Hebrew just as the Atrahasis and Sargon Arks are linked associatively in Babylonia. Now for something extraordinary: no one knows what language tēvāh is or what it means. The word for the wood, gopher, is likewise used nowhere else in the Hebrew Bible and no one knows what language or what kind of wood it is. This is a peculiar state of affairs for one of the most famous and influential paragraphs in all of the world’s writing!

The rsearch clearly show no ambiguity concerning the word tēvāh and its usage in Genesis 6:14-16, I would suggest a comparison in strong's concordance as well. BTW, Strong's concordance was constructed by James Strong, in an attempt to provide an index to the Bible.

Example of religious perspective:

We could conclude that the usage of tēvāh and it has no clear and distinct syntax in Biblical literature for example if we were to use strong's concordance for Genesis 6:14-16

"Make yourself an {tevah: to be startled or alarmed} (tēvāh) of gopher wood [came the instruction]"

Tēvāh in Strong:

Strong's Hebrew: 8429. תְּוַהּ (tevah) -- to be startled or alarmed

From a religious perspective this language fails in a Biblical sense to properly describe an ark to be built for a coming flood. It could even be concluded that the usage of the word tēvāh reflects a much older flood epic used from the Utnapishti’s Ark in the older Babylonian epic of the flood and that the Judeans perforce this word to fit an ark epic religiously. The religious perspective is that the ark epic is largely borrowed quite possibly from Babylon as well with descriptions from Akkadian flood epics and the original Sumerian epic of Ziusudra. Whereas the previous "research perspective" only indicates that the usage of the word tēvāh is largely unknown.

Let's say we wanted to analyze this with a set of epistemology eyes, it would be difficult to do so and rather unnecessary. The only "truth" we will find is that the usage of a word to describe a Biblical epic is lacking, whereas the belief and justification of these ancient cultures is rooted in their dealings with the world around them, which by large accounts we can only rely on certain sources concerning archaeology, even in linguistics, and assyriology as well (I would exclude neo Assyria from the fray, mostly).

The concept of epistemology in a Biblical sense; and is a hot debated topic among Atheists, Agnostics and Christians alike. This includes questions quite possibly such as, is the Bible true? Is there a God, so on and so forth? BTW these are two entirely different animals of the same color (Bible being true or not and is there a God), God in a large sense applies to a wide variety of beliefs, while whether or not the Bible is true and is the inerrant word of the Judeo-Christian God assumes that morals stem from Biblical literature and that the only way to Heaven is via Jesus in Christian mythologies.

A combination of research and religious perspectives can fit a larger pattern concerning the creation of mankind. BTW this still does not fit a pattern of epistemology exclusively, it really only shows in context the various patterns of Biblical monotheism as reflected in its own literature:

Divine image and representation as the creation of human life is an exception to the rule of creation by divine fiat, as signaled by the replacement of the simple ... Hebrew command (the jussive) with a personal, strongly expressed resolve, the cohortative. Whereas the earlier jussives expressed God’s will with a third person, nonagentive verb form, the cohortative is both first person and agentive. Unlike the jussives, too, the cohortative doesn’t itself create but prepares or introduces the creative act. With justification, then:

The man and the woman in Gen. I ... are ... created ... by God’s own personal decision (v. 26)—a decision unique in the Priestly document’s whole creation account.

Similarly, God participates more intimately and intensively in this than in the earlier works of creation. As the cohortative form suggests, P’s God anticipates a more active role, greater control, and stronger personal involvement in the human creation than in his previous seven creative acts. God’s involvement also runs deeper. As P tells the story, this last creative act coincides with an extraordinary divine event. When God initiates human creation, God takes the opportunity to identify himself, for the first time, in the self-referential first person. At the same time, God’s identity is invested in this human creature and is represented by two characteristics: a divine image and a divine likeness. Humanity resembles divinity through two inherent yet divine features. Of all God’s creations, only humanity is envisioned as comparable to divinity.

V. 27 will corroborate and will execute this vision. Its first clause names the creator, the human creature, and the divine image that God invests in human beings (v. 27aα ). Overlapping with the first, the second clause identifies the divine possessor of the image (v. 27aâ ). The third clause deletes reference to the image yet describes the human creature as a constituent pair (v. 27b). V. 27 therefore will reiterate the unique relationship between God and humanity, explains the relationship, and tracks it from its source to its individual heirs. So, the interpretive details of Gen :26–27 are unclear at best.

To be sure, the characteristics uniquely shared by creator and creature assert “the incomparable nature of human beings and their special relationship to God.”

But when its two nominal components—‘image’and ‘likeness’—are queried, the assertion of incomparability is quickly qualified.

For example, what does the ‘image’ of God signify, and how does the human race reflect it? Or, what is a divine ‘likeness’, how does it compare to the divine ‘image’, and how is the ‘likeness’ reflected in humankind? The responses are often unsatisfying. Very little distinction can be made between the two words. The two terms are used interchangeably and indiscriminately and one has to conclude that “image” and “likeness” are, like “prototype” and “original,” essentially equivalent expressions. They do not seek to describe two different sorts of relationship, but only a single one; the second member of the word-pair does not seek to do more than in some sense to define the first more closely and to reinforce it. That is to say, it seeks so to limit and to fix the likeness and accord between God and man that, in all circumstances, the uniqueness of God will be guarded. These statements, then, testify to the problem.

The ‘image’ is problematic in its own right. For in most of its occurrences, íìö ‘image’ is a concrete noun. And as such, it refers to a representation of form, figure, or physical appearance.

Thus if the human race is created in the ‘image of God’, there is an unavoidable logical implication: God must also be material, physical, corporeal, and, to a certain degree, humanoid. Problematic, too, is the intertextual implication of a concrete, human ‘image’. Indeed, the very existence of such an ‘image’ seems to violate the second commandment, which forbids idols and idolatry (Ex 20: – ; Dt : –10; see also Dt :15–19, and, within the Priestly tradition, Lev 19: , 26: ).

First, I have to say that while I can see that you definitely have referred to some interesting and substantial sources, still, you really need to stop plagiarizing. I went back to the very first post you presented when you first came to CF, and I see that ever since then, you have a habit of presenting multiple, large portions of texts from various books, both verbatim as well as partially paraphrased, as if what is presented in your post has been written by you rather than by scholars like Mark S. Smith or W. Randall Garr.

None of that is going to fly with me ... You need to cite your material and your sources correctly. I don't care what format you use, whether MLA or APA or Chicago style; but if you're going to pose as being academically inclined, you need to do it right so WE ALL know just who has really said what. It's not enough to just list some books and then proceed to copy and past material without citation from that book list of yours.

Secondly, I'm wondering to what extent you read any books on this same Urgaritic Studies/Assyriology material that has been instead written by Christians? If none, then I'm thinking that you do research that is somewhat imbalanced and biased.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid
 
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ShamashUruk

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First, I have to say that while I can see that you definitely have referred to some interesting and substantial sources, still, you really need to stop plagiarizing. I went back to the very first post you presented when you first came to CF, and I see that ever since then, you have a habit of presenting multiple, large portions of texts from various books, both verbatim as well as partially paraphrased, as if what is presented in your post has been written by you rather than by scholars like Mark S. Smith or W. Randall Garr.

None of that is going to fly with me ... You need to cite your material and your sources correctly. I don't care what format you use, whether MLA or APA or Chicago style; but if you're going to pose as being academically inclined, you need to do it right so WE ALL know just who has really said what. It's not enough to just list some books and then proceed to copy and past material without citation from that book list of yours.
I left links to the sources I quoted, I cannot do anymore than that. Either you agree with the text or you do not, it's not that complicated.

Here let me give you an example:
Joshua 1:9 Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged, for the Lord your God will be with you wherever you go.

I just plagiarized the Bible, but I doubt you will complain about that.

Where did I get that verse from? What sources should I cite? Here BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 150 versions and 50 languages.

Point being, I don't see posting what I do as plagiarism anymore than posting Bible verses. Actually, by law you can post works that are copyright so long as it is for academic, show, teaching purposes. This is academic, and I added a lot of commentary.

Secondly, I'm wondering to what extent you read any books on this same Urgaritic Studies/Assyriology material that are instead written by Christians?

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

Check out this book for author who writes his book and is a Christian source

John H. Walton - Wikipedia

I have his book, it's interesting. In it he make a fatal conclusion that Yahweh unlike the Gods in Mesopotamia does not depend on the Israelite's for anything. The author claims that Yahweh could not be manipulated by mankind.

(Walton, John H (1989). Ancient Israelite Literature in its Cultural Context, A Survey of Parallels Between Biblical and Ancient Near Eastern Texts. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.)

My dissenting opinion is that Yahweh is first seen in Canaan and in Canaan was offered the same rituals, lamentations, food, etc as Baal and El or Elyon in Canaan. Also, Yahweh requires blood sacrifice, hence, Yahweh depends on mankind for blood sacrifice. It is only later on that there is distinction between Yahweh and Baal that is made, I believe Hosea sums it nicely, And it shall be at that day, saith the Lord, that thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no more Baali, I think verse 16 of chapter 2.

Lastly, I do not know or understand why, even if I am correct per research it is such a big deal for you as you are a Christian? It's only a difference of understanding the origins of the Bible and its origins in Mesopotamia that is being discussed, interestingly, I do have some material from archeologists on the Island of Patmos during the exile of John, but other than that if you were trying to convert me to Christianity we'd merely disagree.

I am not an atheist or an agnostic, I believe your approach with epistemology is ill fitted, as the people in Mesopotamia, were largely worshipers of their Gods or God depending on whether they were polytheistic or henotheists, or like the Ankh monotheistic.

In my humble opinion early Mesopotamian doesn't deal with such avenues such as ontology (directly), though to some degree in thought it might be discussed, those philosophies I believe develop much later. This is why now we see so many Christians and Atheists debating, hotly debating I might add.

And really such silly questions as "if there is a loving God he wouldn't let people go to hell" or "God in the Bible let's slavery happen, so how is this a loving God" or "why does God cause cancer". It seems Christians alike get stuck in the cycle of answering these questions in order to refute atheism or they will retort with why evolution didn't occur or why there was no big bang, because everything needs a creator, it ends up being a vicious cycle. On the other hand, Atheism and Christianity go hand in hand, as the usage of such cheap and dismal debates ends up in insults or "loose" talk. Yet, people will not take the time to simply debate why the concept of hell was added to the Bible, or why slavery was commonplace in many societies or how and why cancer develops. The question of God really becomes irrelevant in that sense, but to state that God does or doesn't exist is dependent on the person, the belief is only presented. For atheists as I have stated before, it is only a possibility, as atheists can't deny possibilities. For you and I, however, we both believe there is something beyond our comprehension, we merely disagree on what it is. You can use the Bible to try and explain such things and I will relate it right back to its origins in Mesopotamia, but whether you agree or not doesn't matter, I didn't pen the Bible and neither did you, just like I didn't carve into Cuneiform and neither did you.
 
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Nihilist Virus

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I left links to the sources I quoted, I cannot do anymore than that. Either you agree with the text or you do not, it's not that complicated.

Here let me give you an example:
Joshua 1:9 Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid; do not be discouraged, for the Lord your God will be with you wherever you go.

I just plagiarized the Bible, but I doubt you will complain about that.

Where did I get that verse from? What sources should I cite? Here BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 150 versions and 50 languages.

Point being, I don't see posting what I do as plagiarism anymore than posting Bible verses. Actually, by law you can post works that are copyright so long as it is for academic, show, teaching purposes. This is academic, and I added a lot of commentary.

I suspect that 2PhiloVoid's contention is that while you can quote scripture without citing a source, you need to cite your source if you're quoting commentary on scripture.

Personally, though, I think such a point should be more or less a postscript of a good debunking; unfortunately, Christians are rarely afforded the opportunity to debunk anyone or anything.
 
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ShamashUruk

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I suspect that 2PhiloVoid's contention is that while you can quote scripture without citing a source, you need to cite your source if you're quoting commentary on scripture.

Personally, though, I think such a point should be more or less a postscript of a good debunking; unfortunately, Christians are rarely afforded the opportunity to debunk anyone or anything.

I am only hung up on cite sources when I want to question the author of the source.

On that note...

The idea of using scripture and claiming God as a source is interestingly acerbic. And is easily debunked, we know that scribes penned the collection of myths now known as the Bible. Hence, to state that "God" is the source we need to look in depth at the source who wrote those collections. They are Israelite's for the most part and originate in Canaan, hence, they are structured as polytheistic.

So my question, which God told them to scribe?

Was it Yahweh, was it El, both are Canaanite deities worshiped in Canaan and often are met with blood sacrifice.

So my question, if either Yahweh or El instructed, why are Canaanite deities instructing early Israelite's to pen such a large compendium?

Obviously the myth hero Jesus doesn't come along until the New Testament. Jesus is also seen as a blend of earlier God, Demi-God, Legend, Heroic epics, it is incredulous and suspect at best.
 
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I am only hung up on cite sources when I want to question the author of the source.

On that note...

The idea of using scripture and claiming God as a source is interestingly acerbic. And is easily debunked, we know that scribes penned the collection of myths now known as the Bible. Hence, to state that "God" is the source we need to look in depth at the source who wrote those collections. They are Israelite's for the most part and originate in Canaan, hence, they are structured as polytheistic.

So my question, which God told them to scribe?

Was it Yahweh, was it El, both are Canaanite deities worshiped in Canaan and often are met with blood sacrifice.

So my question, if either Yahweh or El instructed, why are Canaanite deities instructing early Israelite's to pen such a large compendium?

Obviously the myth hero Jesus doesn't come along until the New Testament. Jesus is also seen as a blend of earlier God, Demi-God, Legend, Heroic epics, it is incredulous and suspect at best.
There is a lot of pseudo history going on here.

I take it that you dismiss the Bible completely, yet cherry pick verses to validate some sort of twisted idea that the God of the Bible was structured around polytheism?
 
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ShamashUruk

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There is a lot of pseudo history going on here.
Please provide an example of psuedo history.

I take it that you dismiss the Bible completely, yet cherry pick verses to validate some sort of twisted idea that the God of the Bible was structured around polytheism?

You can't have a Bible without Bible verses, however, that I can tell in my last post I did not "cherry pick" any verses.


take it that you dismiss the Bible completely, yet cherry pick verses to validate some sort of twisted idea that the God of the Bible was structured around polytheism?
Monotheism develops from Polytheism, so I am unaware of what you mean.
 
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Abraxos

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Please provide an example of psuedo history.



You can't have a Bible without Bible verses, however, that I can tell in my last post I did not "cherry pick" any verses.


Monotheism develops from Polytheism, so I am unaware of what you mean.
Sure, you can't have the Bible without Bible verses, but cherry picking verses allows for things to be taken out of context, while building a peculiar view based on a few verses would lead to false conclusions. You have linguistic similarities for sure, which is what is expected of Semitic peoples, or any peoples in relatively close proximity to each other, but concerning beliefs in a God (God of the Bible and the other gods) and many is probably why you are confused historically and theologically.
 
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ShamashUruk

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Sure, you can't have the Bible without Bible verses, but cherry picking verses allows for things to be taken out of context, while building a peculiar view based on a few verses would lead to false conclusions.
What verses did I cherry pick and take out of context? You haven't shown any

What view did I build on and what verses pertain to that view?

What false conclusions?

You have linguistic similarities for sure, which is what is expected of Semitic peoples, or any peoples in relatively close proximity to each other, but concerning beliefs in a God (God of the Bible and the other gods) and many is probably why you are confused historically and theologically.



Semitic people refer to people originating out of Mesopotamia, Sumerian's are not Semitic however.

There is no such animal as an "Israelite" technically. They are a mix of races that emerge out of Canaan. So how am I confused historically and theologically?
 
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