The definition of sin

[GenemZ]

Also, I once had an asthma attack that probably warranted an emergency room visit. It was the first time I had such an attack since becoming an atheist. Having recently been Christian, my instincts were to pray, but I quickly discarded that thought and accepted whatever fate had in store for me. Despite being unresponsive to my my rescue inhaler, I made it just fine without God or prayer.

Question please.... How could you have ever been a Christian if you are an atheist? For to be a Christian you would know that God is real.

How do you explain having once being a Christian? Did you once know God was real? Now you don't?

I think you may need to find a way to rephrase your stand.

 

[HitchSlap]

Question please.... How could you have ever been a Christian if you are an atheist? For to be a Christian you would know that God is real.

How do you explain having once being a Christian? Did you once know God was real? Now you don't?

I think you may need to find a way to rephrase your stand.

I used to think god was real. Now I don't.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

I used to think god was real. Now I don't.

No, see, the point is that Christians know they're right, but atheists, Hindus, Muslims, and etc only think they're right. Checkmate.

 

[Tinker Grey]

I used to think god was real. Now I don't.

Or more precisely: I used to think I knew that god was real. Now I know that I don't know that god is real.

 

[GenemZ]

I used to think god was real. Now I don't.

Thinking is not the same as 'knowing.' You never knew God is real.

"Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me.
The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them
and will 'make Myself known'/'reveal Myself' to him." John 14:21​

Some of us know He is REAL.

 

[GenemZ]

No, see, the point is that Christians know they're right, but atheists, Hindus, Muslims, and etc only think they're right. Checkmate.

Satan still thinks he was right... Your point was?

 

[HitchSlap]

Thinking is not the same as 'knowing.' You never knew God is real.

​

You think you know god exists. As I said, knowledge is demonstrable. I'm still waiting for your demonstration.
Doubling down by asking me to pleeeeeeease believe you is silliness. As I said, we're operating from diametrically opposed epistemological methods.

​

 

[GenemZ]

You think you know god exists. As I said, knowledge is demonstrable. I'm still waiting for your demonstration.
Doubling down by asking me to pleeeeeeease believe you is silliness. As I said, we're operating from diametrically opposed epistemological methods.

​

Jesus gave a demonstration...

How would you have coached Him to do a better job?

 

[HitchSlap]

Jesus gave a demonstration...

Allegedly.

How would you have coached Him to do a better job?

He should be smart enough to figure out what would convince me.

 

[GenemZ]

Allegedly.

He should be smart enough to figure out what would convince me.

He's smart enough to leave you alone if need be.

God could convince every single soul by sheer power and might, perhaps?

Idiot Pharaoh rode right between the parted waters. Even after witnessing to the devastating plagues that hit Egypt.

So, how would you have convinced Pharaoh? Judas? Herod? Adolf Hitler?

Simply said... God, after a point, does not bother with certain people. He will let them reap what they have sown. Its up to them to seek Him.

 

[HitchSlap]

He's smart enough to leave you alone if need be.

God could convince every single soul by sheer power and might, perhaps?

Idiot Pharaoh rode right between the parted waters. Even after witnessing to the devastating plagues that hit Egypt.

So, how would you have convinced Pharaoh? Judas? Herod? Adolf Hitler?

Simply said... God, after a point, does not bother with certain people. He will let them reap what they have sown. Its up to them to seek Him.

It would seem then, that there are indeed things your god can't do.

 

[GenemZ]

You think you know god exists. As I said, knowledge is demonstrable. I'm still waiting for your demonstration.​

​

Am I Jesus Christ? If its ever going to happen with you, it will not be demonstrated by some believer. You have misplaced that responsibility.

"Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me.
The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them
and will 'make Myself known..'reveal Myself' to him." John 14:21​

That demonstration rests upon the Lord's discretion. Not mine. Not any other believer, as well. He is the one who makes Himself known. Try reading that passage again?

 

[GenemZ]

It would seem then, that there are indeed things your god can't do.

He can not rape your volition.

 

[HitchSlap]

He can not rape your volition.

Nor logically demonstrate it's existence.

 

[HitchSlap]

​

Am I Jesus Christ?

I have no reason to believe you are.

If its ever going to happen with you, it will not be demonstrated by some believer.

I'll settle for independently demonstrable objective evidence.

You have misplaced that responsibility.

Well, it was you who claimed they new god existed. If I need to ask someone else to support your claims, let me know.

"Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me.
The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them
and will 'make Myself known..'reveal Myself' to him." John 14:21

I'm no longer a Christian, so this does really hold any sway over me.​

That demonstration rests upon the Lord's discretion.

I understand.

Not mine.

Unless you're claiming you know god exists, which you did.

Not any other believer, as well.

I'm talking to you, not other believers.

He is the one who makes Himself known.

Ok.

Try reading that passage again?

Why, does it become more compelling if I read it again?

 

[GenemZ]

Why, does it become more compelling if I read it again?

Compelling? I want you to simply acknowledge what it says objectively. Not even agree. Just acknowledge.

For, if you would only grasp what it says? You'd stop going in two different directions at once like you have been doing. For you keep asking me to demonstrate something to you? That Jesus said, He alone will demonstrate to those whom He chooses.

You keep asking me to demonstrated to you what Jesus alone would have to demonstrate to you! That is why I asked you. "Am I Jesus Christ?" (you totally missed the point)

Its almost humorous what you do.. You claim to be logical. But highly illogical at the same time.

 

[John 1720]

Hi John, nice to meet you. Thanks for taking the time to contribute to the thread.

Same here. Nice to meet you as well!

I've heard that tests tend to conclude the exact opposite. All I have is a very small sample size, but I did recently take my girlfriend in to have her gallbladder removed. We were offered prayer and declined, and she is doing just fine. Also, I once had an asthma attack that probably warranted an emergency room visit. It was the first time I had such an attack since becoming an atheist. Having recently been Christian, my instincts were to pray, but I quickly discarded that thought and accepted whatever fate had in store for me. Despite being unresponsive to my my rescue inhaler, I made it just fine without God or prayer.

Hearsay is just that. I've actually attended the lectures from Harvard Medical School on faith and healing. You may want to try their Website. I also spoke with the researchers in light of our Christian outreach to refugees with PTSD. They were very supportive of what we were doing and stated without addressing the spiritual side of the problem the person's issue, in their case the patient, would not receive holistic treatment. You have to treat the whole person and that is body, mind and spirit.
Just for the record I was not claiming people don't heal without prayer, just that the evidence supports that the majority of people do better when they are prayed for. God has been known to be merciful to many who do not know Him. I had lost my faith when I was in the military for several years but God protected me and showed me He was there for me all along. Before my last deployment I wound up committing my heart and life to the Lord. We are all on a journey and life takes us down different roads but as long as we draw breath this still is the age of mercy. I can relate to the asthma - as I had that pretty bad as a kid. Thank God I have not had it in many years now.

No. Nothing about what I said in the paragraph you're addressing here was subjective.

I was referring to your statement as to how black and white Islam is. That is what I believe is a subjective understanding of Islam. How many Muslims have you spoken to? I've spoken and conversed with many Muslims from many parts of the world and I can absolutely tell you there are many variants and beliefs systems that abound out there. Also you may want to ask a Muslim, if they have assurance heaven is theirs? Most have told me, 'Ah, sir I truly hope so but only Allah knows that'. You see in their book it depends on good works. In the end they hope their good deeds will outweigh their bad deeds and Allah may have mercy. Christianity is not that at all because it depends on the Words and Promises of Christ being true. If I am trusting my life to Christ then I am in Christ and am being sanctified in grace and that blessed assurance is mine.

From all of this I was able to find that you define sin as follows: "Whatever is not of faith in God is not of God and is sin."

You should be careful when using universal qualifiers such as "whatever". For instance, a basketball is not of faith. By your definition, a basketball is sin. I don't think that's what you intended, so I think your definition needs some tinkering.

The "whatever" comes from St. Paul not me. Not sure your example applies to what I was saying. You can certainly play basketball to the glory of God. BTW basketball was invented by a Chaplain.
1Co 10:31 Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.
Col 3:17 And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.
Col 3:23 And whatever you do, do it heartily, as to the Lord and not to men.
Finally in Christ then we pursue what is good. Love justice, seek mercy and walk humbly with our God. The goodness of God is to be found in the love of God, which has become our possession thanks to the dying love of our Savior.
Phl 4:8 Finally, brother, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things.

I can be pleasing to God in many ways and I can give glory to God with every breath I draw. It is my choice to recognize or not the gift of life He has given me.
Have a pleasant evening NV

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Same here. Nice to meet you as well!

Hearsay is just that. I've actually attended the lectures from Harvard Medical School on faith and healing. You may want to try their Website. I also spoke with the researchers in light of our Christian outreach to refugees with PTSD. They were very supportive of what we were doing and stated without addressing the spiritual side of the problem the person's issue, in their case the patient, would not receive holistic treatment. You have to treat the whole person and that is body, mind and spirit.

I didn't intend to portray my counter evidence as hearsay. Sources were provided. I just wasn't inclined to investigate.

Just for the record I was not claiming people don't heal without prayer, just that the evidence supports that the majority of people do better when they are prayed for. God has been known to be merciful to many who do not know Him. I had lost my faith when I was in the military for several years but God protected me and showed me He was there for me all along. Before my last deployment I wound up committing my heart and life to the Lord. We are all on a journey and life takes us down different roads but as long as we draw breath this still is the age of mercy. I can relate to the asthma - as I had that pretty bad as a kid. Thank God I have not had it in many years now.

And again, I've been hearing just the opposite.

I was referring to your statement as to how black and white Islam is. That is what I believe is a subjective understanding of Islam. How many Muslims have you spoken to? I've spoken and conversed with many Muslims from many parts of the world and I can absolutely tell you there are many variants and beliefs systems that abound out there. Also you may want to ask a Muslim, if they have assurance heaven is theirs? Most have told me, 'Ah, sir I truly hope so but only Allah knows that'. You see in their book it depends on good works. In the end they hope their good deeds will outweigh their bad deeds and Allah may have mercy. Christianity is not that at all because it depends on the Words and Promises of Christ being true. If I am trusting my life to Christ then I am in Christ and am being sanctified in grace and that blessed assurance is mine.

If I make a factual claim about Islam, it is objective. I don't follow your point. And frankly I don't care what you have heard from Muslims or how many you've spoken to: they are allowed, encouraged, and compelled to lie. Whether it's to save their lives, or to facilitate assimilation, or to advance their religion, they have full permission to lie to you. So I don't know what you think a conversation with them would accomplish.

The "whatever" comes from St. Paul not me. Not sure your example applies to what I was saying. You can certainly play basketball to the glory of God. BTW basketball was invented by a Chaplain.

You misused a universal qualifier, and then said my example doesn't apply. You kind of just admitted defeat. I think you need to redefine your terms.

1Co 10:31 Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.
Col 3:17 And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him.
Col 3:23 And whatever you do, do it heartily, as to the Lord and not to men.
Finally in Christ then we pursue what is good. Love justice, seek mercy and walk humbly with our God. The goodness of God is to be found in the love of God, which has become our possession thanks to the dying love of our Savior.
Phl 4:8 Finally, brother, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things.

I can be pleasing to God in many ways and I can give glory to God with every breath I draw. It is my choice to recognize or not the gift of life He has given me.
Have a pleasant evening NV

Echoing the sentiments of the Bible doesn’t make you right. Maybe believers will stop in their tracks when you invoke the Bible, but not me.

 

[John 1720]

I didn't intend to portray my counter evidence as hearsay. Sources were provided. I just wasn't inclined to investigate.

And again, I've been hearing just the opposite.

Hi sir. Despite your intention I'm not sure your logic quite adds up. Instead of hard stats it seems that you are suggesting to us that we should believe you simply because you have heard the opposite? ok, I offered up a national study, or rather several of them, and as far as I can see you only offered us the below as your entire deposit of so called "empirical" data as your source.

[*]I did recently take my girlfriend in to have her gallbladder removed. We were offered prayer and declined, and she is doing just fine.
[*]Also, I once had an asthma attack that probably warranted an emergency room visit. It was the first time I had such an attack since becoming an atheist. Having recently been Christian, my instincts were to pray, but I quickly discarded that thought and accepted whatever fate had in store for me. Despite being unresponsive to my my rescue inhaler, I made it just fine without God or prayer.

So sir, you did not supply any statistics to back up your argument just some anecdotal evidence. BTW neither case actually proves to anyone that God was not merciful to either you or your girlfriend. After all Jesus said, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do" to His ignorant and gleeful executioners. So God is more than capable of having mercy on unbelievers and even enemies of God, as St. Paul once was. Hence there really is no postulate which claims God cannot be kind and merciful to those who reject or even defy Him to His face. In fact the Bible claims that He is patient and long suffering toward us, not wishing any would perish but that all would come to knowledge of the truth. Albeit His patience and His mercy are limited by His justice, still we are all provided opportunity to experience mercy, forgiveness and His salvation.

If I make a factual claim about Islam, it is objective. I don't follow your point. And frankly I don't care what you have heard from Muslims or how many you've spoken to: they are allowed, encouraged, and compelled to lie. Whether it's to save their lives, or to facilitate assimilation, or to advance their religion, they have full permission to lie to you. So I don't know what you think a conversation with them would accomplish.

Actually, my point was that you did not make a factual claim about Islam at all and I was merely stating your point about Islamic belief systems was an argument from ignorance. If you are going to compare Islam and Christianity you at least need to start from the position of factual information. As to the above, all human beings possess the capability of lying, including you. So I do not consider that ones immersion into falsehood necessarily dictates a total inability to see the truth. One's culture and ideology may be strongholds of resistance but Christ has categorically stated He has overcome the world and the Gospel will go to the ends of the earth and to every ethnicity on the planet - then the end shall come. 2000 years ago He said that to 12 men today it is being fulfilled in your hearing. By 2025 the Bible will have been translated into every tongue and missionaries are even now engaged in the final push to bring the Gospel to every tribe, tongue and nation. The day that Christ promised would come is almost here. As far as the Christian is concerned we are taught by the Lord to love our enemies and to pray for those who spitefully abuse us.

• Mat 5:44 “But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, "that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain upon the just and on the unjust.
• Luk 6:35 “But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil.

So far from hating those caught up in conflicting worldviews and ideologies that are adverse to Christ we followers of Jesus love Muslims and desire relationships with them. We also have godly conversations that lead to discussions of the good news of Jesus Christ with Muslims. All human beings are worthy to hear of God's love and I as well as many others have found Muslims more open to the Gospel than most Americans are - they desire to have conversations about Jesus. In fact a higher percentage of Muslims are becoming followers of Christ than ever before by more than a magnitude of order. and the fastest growth of Christianity is in not in the West but in the nation of Iran.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Hi sir. Despite your intention I'm not sure your logic quite adds up. Instead of hard stats it seems that you are suggesting to us that we should believe you simply because you have heard the opposite? ok, I offered up a national study, or rather several of them, and as far as I can see you only offered us the below as your entire deposit of so called "empirical" data as your source.

So sir, you did not supply any statistics to back up your argument just some anecdotal evidence. BTW neither case actually proves to anyone that God was not merciful to either you or your girlfriend. After all Jesus said, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do" to His ignorant and gleeful executioners. So God is more than capable of having mercy on unbelievers and even enemies of God, as St. Paul once was. Hence there really is no postulate which claims God cannot be kind and merciful to those who reject or even defy Him to His face. In fact the Bible claims that He is patient and long suffering toward us, not wishing any would perish but that all would come to knowledge of the truth. Albeit His patience and His mercy are limited by His justice, still we are all provided opportunity to experience mercy, forgiveness and His salvation.

Long-Awaited Medical Study Questions the Power of Prayer

Actually, my point was that you did not make a factual claim about Islam at all and I was merely stating your point about Islamic belief systems was an argument from ignorance. If you are going to compare Islam and Christianity you at least need to start from the position of factual information.

I did.

As to the above, all human beings possess the capability of lying, including you. So I do not consider that ones immersion into falsehood necessarily dictates a total inability to see the truth. One's culture and ideology may be strongholds of resistance but Christ has categorically stated He has overcome the world and the Gospel will go to the ends of the earth and to every ethnicity on the planet - then the end shall come. 2000 years ago He said that to 12 men today it is being fulfilled in your hearing. By 2025 the Bible will have been translated into every tongue and missionaries are even now engaged in the final push to bring the Gospel to every tribe, tongue and nation. The day that Christ promised would come is almost here. As far as the Christian is concerned we are taught by the Lord to love our enemies and to pray for those who spitefully abuse us.

• Mat 5:44 “But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, "that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain upon the just and on the unjust.
• Luk 6:35 “But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil.

So far from hating those caught up in conflicting worldviews and ideologies that are adverse to Christ we followers of Jesus love Muslims and desire relationships with them. We also have godly conversations that lead to discussions of the good news of Jesus Christ with Muslims. All human beings are worthy to hear of God's love and I as well as many others have found Muslims more open to the Gospel than most Americans are - they desire to have conversations about Jesus. In fact a higher percentage of Muslims are becoming followers of Christ than ever before by more than a magnitude of order. and the fastest growth of Christianity is in not in the West but in the nation of Iran.

You keep telling me about how far Christianity has spread. Well, in just 20 years of the Internet being commonplace, Christians converting to atheism has become commonplace as well.

When people are well off, they won't need your religion. When people are educated, they will find it difficult to believe your religion. Impoverished nations that have been hit hard by missionaries will be Christian, but nations full of educated, healthy, wealthy people will be atheist. Atheism is clearly the future. I don't know how long until your religion dies, but it is apparent that it is only a matter of time.