The defeated, the undefeated and the proud (invite only)

[the iconoclast]

------------------------------edit-------------------------------- updated 11.6.2019
Updated 18.6.2019 updated 03.7.2019
Icon - 00
Kylie - 01
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Hey hey to you beautiful ppl and heads up my dears ;p

This is an invite only thread.
Whos Invited?


@Kylie - rock on!!!

- Edit -

@Subduction Zone - the intellectual one!

@AV1611VET - the incomparable!

@2PhiloVoid - verycool!!!

@Shemjaza - a new acquaintance by seems cool!

@Jimmy D - an old favourite, very nice and accommodating ;p

@VirOptimus - evolution just is

I realised that kylie and i needed a home base for our periodical showdown. To all that may read this - im looking at you @Subduction Zone - i promised kylie a remarkable post that would impress her.

I am embarrassed.

The post that i have is quite unremarkable, includes tags/discussions about users who has since complained about me doing so - all i can say is, God just is - and more or less my post to kylie is me continuing to probe & ask questions.

I concentrated on a remarkable post to tmoney which @Herman Hedning requested and lost motivation for long replies. How do we solve this? Our own thread, lets combine it all and go one at a time.

Anyways i checked out our discussions. Main topics.
- catalysts

- pet dragons - category error. 1 point to icon
Edit 11.6.19 Cancelled. Kylies dragon is real point taken back
Edit 18.6.19 conclusion. Kylie got a result from using the Christian faith formula to a non deity. She has an invisible dragon in her backyard.
Edit 3.7.2019 point taken away from kylie. The properties of kylies dragon are changing.

- evolution
- cold fusion
- faith in scientists
- arguements against Andrew Wilies' proof of Fermat's Last Theorem
- how we can properly know each other
- homosexuality and the gene pool.
- girafe necks and evolution
- eardrums canals

And anything else you want to talk about!

- mods please let me know where to move this

I realise i cannot offer you a remarkable post but how about a remarkable thread? Anyways im willing to accept failure and award you a point (clean slate)

1 point to kylie
0 points to icon



Rules.
Civility, no attacks on person, unlimited time to reply and fun!!!
- and why not, the occasional witty retort or sledge (as long as its in good taste)

What say you my favourite atheist, would you like to start round 6?

Cheers

 

[Kylie]

I'm happy to have our discussion here.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes, let's not take other threads off topic.

 

[Subduction Zone]

A question on your flood beliefs, @the iconoclast , how many people survived the flood?

 

[AV1611VET]

Praying for you, brother.

 

[Kylie]

Well, this just seemed to fizzle out...

 

[the iconoclast]

I can prove to you that I have a dragon in my backyard. All you have to do is decide that I am telling the truth, and then you will be completely convinced and will know for a fact that I have a dragon in my backyard.

Hey hey kylie

Please excuse the delay. My visits here may be more infrequent, ive been invited to jam regularly with a band and it is a very exciting time for me - Ive been practicing most nights ;p

Dude, I rock!!!

Im so honoured to join this group of fine musicians i cant even remember what was going on here last.

Anyways lets start easy and go one at a time. I choose our discussion about comparing a belief in Jesus Christ to believing in your pet dragon.

A dragon is a monster like a giant reptile. In European tradition the dragon is typically fire-breathing and tends to symbolize chaos or evil, whereas in East Asia it is usually a beneficent symbol of fertility, associated with water and the heavens.

Jesus Christ is the name of the son of God, and whose teachings are the basis of Christianity.

Im curious, as an atheist, a realist, a scientist and a materialist, do you genuinely believe you have a invisible dragon in your back yard and if i believe he exists i can have a relationship with it?

And which tradition does your pet dragon fit in with?

Cheers

 

[the iconoclast]

Praying for you, brother.

Hey hey brother, its been a long time. Thank you for your prayers and keep em coming.

How u sir?

 

[the iconoclast]

A question on your flood beliefs, @the iconoclast , how many people survived the flood?

Hey hey sub

Your officially invited. how r u my dear?

Sorry for delay. Check out my post to kylie for the reason, anyways, i was not there at the time so i can only speculate. I assume it was more than 1 person

Lets start fresh

Sub zero - 1 point
Icon - 0 points.

Im curious, jesus has an offer for me. I have a covenant with Him and have a relationship with Him. You reject His offer, what offer have you accepted and if its good for you, surely its good enough for me!

What can you offer me?

Cheers

Ps

Pls excuse my poorly written post. Read it a few times and it should make sense

 

[the iconoclast]

Yes, let's not take other threads off topic.

Dont be shy. Come out and play friend

 

[the iconoclast]

Hey brother @sfs and brofher @Speedwell. I respectfully remove myself from our previous conversation.

God bless and no hard feelings.

 

[Kylie]

Hey hey kylie

...

Anyways lets start easy and go one at a time. I choose our discussion about comparing a belief in Jesus Christ to believing in your pet dragon.

A dragon is a monster like a giant reptile. In European tradition the dragon is typically fire-breathing and tends to symbolize chaos or evil, whereas in East Asia it is usually a beneficent symbol of fertility, associated with water and the heavens.

It doesn't matter what it is. You don't need to define a dragon, because my point could be made with an elephant, a truck, a rocketship or a small planetoid.

Jesus Christ is the name of the son of God, and whose teachings are the basis of Christianity.

Again, defining Jesus is not relevant to this conversation.

Im curious, as an atheist, a realist, a scientist and a materialist, do you genuinely believe you have a invisible dragon in your back yard and if i believe he exists i can have a relationship with it?

And which tradition does your pet dragon fit in with?

Cheers

You have completely missed the point I was trying to make.

If I made a statement and claimed it to be fact, and if you then went to check my fact and all of your investigations showed that my claimed fact was wrong, and if I then made excuses to explain away why your investigations were wrong, and my excuses were not testable in any way, should you believe that my claimed fact is true?

 

[the iconoclast]

Hey hey @Subduction Zone

What can you offer me?

 

[the iconoclast]

Hey @Subduction Zone dont keep me hanging. You passed high school science and you are smarter than me, your participation is needed!

 

[the iconoclast]

It doesn't matter what it is. You don't need to define a dragon, because my point could be made with an elephant, a truck, a rocketship or a small planetoid.

Hey hey kylie

Kylie - "I can prove to you that I have a dragon in my backyard. All you have to do is decide that I am telling the truth, and then you will be completely convinced and will know for a fact that I have a dragon in my backyard."

So you cannot prove to me that you have a dragon in your backyard?

Do you genuinely believe you have these things in your backyard and what benefit - is it for me - to believe you?

Again, defining Jesus is not relevant to this conversation.

It never does any harm to remind you who you are rejecting.

You have completely missed the point I was trying to make.

Trust me, i know what point you are make. Im not going to turn my cards over, if you cannot see where im going with this then my advice is to answer as honestly as possible.

If i believe i can fly and you believe i can fly, i can fly. Essentially the topic is belief without proof which leads us to another quote you made

Kylie - "However, I was trying to make the point that if God REALLY wanted to prove to me that he exists, then he could so easily, since even I am capable of proving to someone else that I exist."

Your criteria for proof is to expect the same experiences Jesus and Paul got. You expect to be knocked off a horse or for events that happened to our Saviour, to happen to you, maybe a lightning bolt.

Why does it have to be this way? Why does God need to get your attention? What happens if it doesnt work the way you think it should?

If I made a statement and claimed it to be fact, and if you then went to check my fact and all of your investigations showed that my claimed fact was wrong,

Lets say i make this statement. JESUS is real and you can have a personal relationship with Him. I know it to be true, what investigations have you made to prove this statement false and what methods would you use?

and if I then made excuses to explain away why your investigations were wrong, and my excuses were not testable in any way, should you believe that my claimed fact is true?

Lets check this out. What excuses do you refer to?

What excuses are not testable and what methods are used to test?

Lets try it out. What claim do you make as an alternative to the offer of salvation through Jesus Christ?

Ps
You admitted you do not have a pet dragon!
I should realy claim a point here!!! What you think?

Cheers

 

[Kylie]

Hey @Subduction Zone dont keep me hanging. You passed high school science and you are smarter than me, your participation is needed!

Considering how long it took you to reply to me, and then only when I pestered you to do so, I don't think you're in any position to demand he responds to you after so short a time.

 

[Kylie]

Hey hey kylie

Kylie - "I can prove to you that I have a dragon in my backyard. All you have to do is decide that I am telling the truth, and then you will be completely convinced and will know for a fact that I have a dragon in my backyard."

So you cannot prove to me that you have a dragon in your backyard?

Do you genuinely believe you have these things in your backyard and what benefit - is it for me - to believe you?

Yes, I really do have a dragon in my backyard. If you also believe in the dragon, the dragon will grant you treasures of all sorts.

I can prove to you that there is the dragon in my backyard. Once you open your heart and believe, you'll understand how the dragon's existence is self evident.

So, do you believe now?

It never does any harm to remind you who you are rejecting.

Do you think that by mentioning Jesus multiple times I'll start believing? Nah.

Trust me, i know what point you are make. Im not going to turn my cards over, if you cannot see where im going with this then my advice is to answer as honestly as possible.

If i believe i can fly and you believe i can fly, i can fly. Essentially the topic is belief without proof which leads us to another quote you made

No, even if we both believed you can fly, doesn't mean you can actually fly unless you can rise up into the air by yourself.

Kylie - "However, I was trying to make the point that if God REALLY wanted to prove to me that he exists, then he could so easily, since even I am capable of proving to someone else that I exist."

Your criteria for proof is to expect the same experiences Jesus and Paul got. You expect to be knocked off a horse or for events that happened to our Saviour, to happen to you, maybe a lightning bolt.

Why does it have to be this way? Why does God need to get your attention? What happens if it doesnt work the way you think it should?

No, I'm just asking for something better than the way you seem to think it works, which is, "Just start believing, then you'll believe."

If you can't see the problem with that, then there's no point in this discussion continuing.

Lets say i make this statement. JESUS is real and you can have a personal relationship with Him. I know it to be true, what investigations have you made to prove this statement false and what methods would you use?

Because I tried in order to satisfy my husband when we got engaged, and it didn't work. I've seen lots of other people try the same thing, and they can't come to a single conclusion. They come up with all sorts of different results. That is not what would happen if there really was a God. Not unless he liked being a jerk, and I doubt you'd agree that's the case.

In any case, if YOU make the claim, then it's up to you to support it. It's called the burden of proof. If you make an extraordinary claim, you're going to have to give me something more than the claim in order to convince me that your claim is correct.

I mean, I've made the claim about the dragon in my backyard. What investigations have you made to prove my dragon claim false?

Lets check this out. What excuses do you refer to?

Well, when you say things like, "Oh, you can't expect those sort of results," when I ask for some hard, concrete evidence.

What excuses are not testable and what methods are used to test?

Let me put it this way, if I make a claim that there's a dragon in my backyard, you could come and conduct tests. You could look in my backyard. But you would not see a dragon. "There's the evidence that your claim is wrong," you'd say. "When I look for the dragon in the place where you say the dragon is, I see nothing! That's what I'd expect to see if there was no dragon at all."

"Ah," I'd say, "but the dragon is invisible!" I would use invisibility as an excuse to explain away the failure of your test.

So the you'd go out and walk around my backyard with your hands stretched out, feeling for the dragon. "I feel nothing," you'd say. "There's no scaly skin, no sharp teeth, no leathery wings. When I feel for the dragon in the place where you say the dragon is, I feel nothing! That's what I'd expect to feel if there was no dragon at all."

"Ah," I'd say, "but the dragon is intangible!" I would use intangibility as an excuse to explain away the failure of your test.

And this would go on. You could claim that you can't smell the dragon, and I'd say the dragon produces no odours. You'd claim that you can't hear the dragon, and I'd say that the dragon is perfectly silent. No matter what test you run, you would get results that show that there is no dragon, and I would give some excuse as to why your test failed.

But how would you test my excuses? What's the difference between a dragon that is completely undetectable and no dragon at all?

Lets try it out. What claim do you make as an alternative to the offer of salvation through Jesus Christ?

There is no God. There is no Jesus. The Bible isn't real.

Ps
You admitted you do not have a pet dragon!
I should realy claim a point here!!! What you think?

Cheers

Where did I say the dragon isn't real?

 

[the iconoclast]

Considering how long it took you to reply to me, and then only when I pestered you to do so, I don't think you're in any position to demand he responds to you after so short a time.

Hey hey kylie

Please excuse me. Ill explain my actions, i saw @Subduction Zone was around and was trying to grab his attention. I would love to continue a conversation with him.

I agree, I am in no position to demand anything from him atm

 

[Subduction Zone]

Hey hey kylie

Please excuse me. Ill explain my actions, i saw @Subduction Zone was around and was trying to grab his attention. I would love to continue a conversation with him.

I agree, I am in no position to demand anything from him atm

Are you willing to learn?

 

[the iconoclast]

Are you willing to learn?

Hey hey

Iam
Where do we go from here?