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The decline of hell doctrine and church attendance

David's Harp

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This illustrates that teachings that speak from a spirit of fear, trying to keep people in a state of psychological fear, are lacking spiritual maturity.

When faith works through love, this is the correct, non-carnal way of operating in the New Covenant.

Hi Michael, I'm sure P1LGR1M will have an answer to this, but in the meantime I wanted to draw attention to the fact that there is two different types of fear mentioned in Scripture:
The "Fear of the Lord" as referenced in various Psalms and Proverbs, and "the spirit of fear" as referenced in 2 Timothy 1:7 *

I would argue that what P1LGR1M is advocating is a Fear of the Lord.

My thoughts are that perhaps those newer to Faith will operate more from a spirit of fear, but as they grow this will transform into a Fear of the Lord that is marked by more of a reverence towards God and His Statutes.

* I would have to give this article credit in helping me in my assertion: What does the Bible say about fear? | GotQuestions.org
 
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Der Alte

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* * *Now for "hell," we know it is in the KJV. The 1611 KJV has both "hell" and "hel." Back a few centuries, "Beowulf" has "hell," "hel" and "helle." The setting of "Beowulf" is Denmark/Danmark, so I delved into Norse mythology. There, I quickly found the goddess/ogress Hel, who the pagans thought to rule over her afterlife realm of "Helheim" or "House of Hel." It was not a good place like Valhalla, and you went there if you did not die in battle. Now you know where "hell" comes from.
Irrelevant smoke and mirrors digression. There were no English words at all in the Bible until 1611 when the KJV was first translated into English. I'm sure one can find other words in the KJV which had a different meaning centuries before the KJV.
For example, the word "pulse" occurs three times in the KJV and it has nothing to do with blood pumping through one's veins. Ask any person walking down the street what hell means I am certain you can't find one that says anything about some pagan deity. In modern German "Hell" means bright!,
FYI the word "Gehenna" from the Bauer, Gingrich, Arndt, Gingrich Greek lexicon.

γέεννα, ης, ἡ Gehenna, Grecized fr. הִנֹּם (א)גֵּי (B-D-F §39, 8; Josh 15:8b; 18:16b; Neh 11:30) cp. Targum גֵיהִנָּם (s. Dalman, Gramm.2 183), really בֶן־הִנֹּם (א)גֵּי (Josh 15:8a; 18:16a; 2 Ch 28:3; Jer 7:32; cp. 2 Kings 23:10, where the kethibh has the pl.: sons of Hinnom) Valley of the Sons of Hinnom, a ravine south of Jerusalem. There, acc. to later Jewish popular belief, God’s final judgment was to take place (cp. Just., A I, 19, 8). In the gospels it is the place of punishment in the next life, hell: κρίσις τῆς γ. condemnation to G. Mt 23:33. βάλλεσθαι (εἰς) (τὴν) γ. (cp. SibOr 2, 291) 5:29; 18:9; Mk 9:45, 47; ἐμβαλεῖν εἰς τὴν γ. Lk 12:5; ἀπελθεῖν εἰς (τὴν) γ. Mt 5:30; Mk 9:43; ἀπολέσαι ἐν γ. Mt 10:28; υἱὸς γ. a son of hell 23:15 (dominantly a Semitism, s. υἱὸς 2 cβ; Bab. Rosh ha-Shana 17b בני גיהנם. Cp. the oracle Hdt. 6, 86, γ: the perjurer is Ὅρκου πάϊς; Menand. Dyskolos 88 υἱὸς ὀδύνης). ἔνοχον εἶναι εἰς τὴν γ. (sc. βληθῆναι) 5:22. As a place of fire γ. (τοῦ) πυρός (PGM 4, 3072 γέννα πυρός; ApcEsdr 1:9 p. 25, 1 Tdf.; SibOr 1, 103) hell of fire 5:22; 18:9; 2 Cl 5:4. Of the tongue φλογιζομένη ὑπὸ τῆς γ. set on fire by hell Js 3:6.—GDalman, RE VI 418ff; PVolz, Eschatol. d. jüd. Gem.’34, 327ff; GBeer, D. bibl. Hades: HHoltzmann Festschr, 1902, 1–29; Billerb. IV 1928, 1029–1118.—B. 1485. M-M.
William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 190–191.
And please spare us the meaningless auto-matonic biased response "It's biased." Before you even think about that, review every one of the sources the BDAG listed, highlighted in blue.
 
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RDKirk

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I respectfully disagree. As I sometimes remind folks here, "...sufficient evidence in scripture..." is misleading. The Scriptures are not carved in stone, they are not monolithic, they are not just a single version we can call "The Scriptures," or "The Bible." They are paper and ink in a great number of versions/translations. If you fail to mention the version you are quoting from, you are not being entirely honest.

Now for "hell," we know it is in the KJV. The 1611 KJV has both "hell" and "hel." Back a few centuries, "Beowulf" has "hell," "hel" and "helle." The setting of "Beowulf" is Denmark/Danmark, so I delved into Norse mythology. There, I quickly found the goddess/ogress Hel, who the pagans thought to rule over her afterlife realm of "Helheim" or "House of Hel." It was not a good place like Valhalla, and you went there if you did not die in battle. Now you know where "hell" comes from.

Well, your method of "decertifying" hell in scripture is to decertify scripture altogether.

All righty, then.
 
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Der Alte

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You misrepresent me AGAIN. I have explained before and again today (post #76 above) that I spent over two years in the KJV to DECIDE which afterlife theory was correct. Now "...you started out with preconceptions and you guided your "study" so that you ended up supporting what you had already decided." is something you cannot possibly know, but you plow ahead as if your opinion was carved in stone.
I think YOU are the one with preconceptions.
Oh, and as ever, I reject those biased Jewish sources...well, the Jewish Encyclopedia is sometimes useful.
You want to steer me toward what I'm sure you consider to be good scholarship, but I have seen enough of both scientific and scholarly literature to know that both are divided into bickering camps. The science is NOT settled, and neither is the scholarship. Both are populated by petty, argumentative humans, and what else would anyone expect?
In that 2 year study did you consult either a Hebrew or a Greek lexicon? If you didn't and I am certain you didn't then your "study" was faulty from the start.
Your opinion of the three Jewish sources I cited is meaningless. You did not do a credible study on anything.

†שְׁאוֹל S7585 TWOT2303c GK8619, שְׁאֹל n.f. ψ 86:13 (appar. m. Jb 26:6 cf. Is 14:9, v. Albr xvi (1896), 51) Sheʾôl, underworld (√ dub.; שׁאל, i.e. place of inquiry (ref. to necromancy) Jastr xiv. 170, xix (1900), 88 ff. (JeremLeben n. d. Tode 109 ‘Ort der Entscheidung’); Thes BöDe § 158 Di al. cp. √ שׁעל, whence שֹׁעַל hollow hand, etc.; שׁ׳ then = hollow place, ‘Hölle’, hell; other conj. v. Hup Ps. 6:6; De Is. 5:14 BeerBibl. Hades in HoltzmannFestgabe, 1902, 15; most now refrain from positive etymology (e.g. Buhl); Old Aramaic שאול, Syriac ܫܝܽܘܠ (šyul); Assyrian šu-alu is dub.: so read and interpr. Dl 121; . 47, 145 Jastr xiv. 165 ff. Ency. Bib.s.v.; opp. by Bertin viii. 269 JenKosmol. 223 ff. Zim 3. 636 al.; v. also Muss-Arnolt xi (1892), 169 and reff.);—always abs., שְׁאוֹל Dt 32:22 + 52 times, ה—ָ Gn 42:38 ψ 9:18; שְׁאֹל 1 K 2:6; Jb 17:16, ה—ָ Gn 37:35 + 7 times; + Is 7:11 (so read for שְׁאָ֫לָה Aq Σ Θ Du Che and now most);— 1. the underworld, שׁ׳ תַּחְתִּית Dt 32:22, מִתַּחַת Is 14:9; מִשּׁ׳ מָ֑טָּה Pr 15:24; || מָוֶת 5:5; 7:27; Ct 8:6 ψ 89:49; whither men descend at death, Gn 37:35 (E), 42:38; 44:29, 31 (J), 1 S 2:6; 1 K 2:6, 9; Jb 7:9; 21:13; Is 14:11, 15 ψ 88:4, and Ḳoraḥ and associates go down alive by י׳’s judgment, Nu 16:30, 33 (J), cf. ψ 55:16; under mts. and sea Jb 26:6 (cf. v 5), בֶּטֶן שׁ׳ Jon 2:3 (cf. v 7); with bars Jb 17:16 (si vera l.: v. Du); פִּי שׁ׳ ψ 141:7; שַׁעֲרֵי שׁ׳ Is 38:10; personif. Is 28:15, 18 (|| מות) as insatiable monster 5:14; Hb 2:5; Pr 1:12; 27:20; 30:16; as said (fig.) to have snares, חֶבְלֵי שׁ׳, ψ 18:6 = 2 S 22:6, cf. מְצָרֵי שׁ׳ ψ 116:3; opp. (height of) שָׁמַיִם Am 9:2; Jb 11:8 ψ 139:8 + (opp. לְמָ֑עְלָה) Is 7:11 (v. supra); dark, gloomy, without return Jb 17:13 (cf. v 16; 7:9; 10:21; 16:22; all being alike 3:17–19; 21:23–26); without work or knowledge or wisdom according to Ec 9:5, 6, 10 (cf. Jb 14:21, and v. רְפָאִים sub רפה; yet cf. Is 14:9 f.). 2. condition of righteous and wicked disting. in שׁ׳ (later than 1 S 28, especially in WisdLt): a. wicked יָשׁוּבוּ לִשְׁא֑וֹלָה ψ 9:18, יִדְּמוּ לִשׁ׳ 31:18; death is their shepherd, without power and honour they waste away 49:15(); שׁ׳ consumes them as drought water Jb 24:19; righteous dread it because no praise or presence of God there (as in temple) ψ 6:6 (cf. 88:6), Is 38:18; deliverance from it a blessing ψ 30:4; 86:13; Pr 23:14. In Ezek. שׁ׳ is land below, place of reproach, abode of uncircumcised Ez 31:15, 16, 17; 32:21, 27. b. righteous shall not be abandoned, לשׁ׳ ψ 16:10 (|| שַׁחַת q.v.; opp. אֹרַח הַיִּים, etc., v 11, cf. 17:15), is ransomed from שׁ׳ 49:16 (cf. 73:23, 25; Is 57:1, 2); cf. Job’s expectation and desire Jb 14:13; 17:13 (cf. 10:21; 19:25 f.). 3. later distinction of places in שׁ׳: a. depths of שׁ׳ for sensualist Pr 9:18. b. שׁ׳ וַאֲבַדּוֹן Pr 15:11, v. אֲבַדּוֹן. [שַׁחַת and בּוֹר, q.v., when || שׁ׳, are usually in bad sense (ψ 88:4); prob. = pit in שׁ׳, > שׁ׳ itself as pit; words at least prepare for local distinctions of postB. Judaism and NT.] 4. שׁ׳ fig. of extreme degradation in sin Is 57:9; as place of exile for Israel Ho 13:14() (cf. Is 26:19).
Francis Brown, Samuel Rolles Driver, and Charles Augustus Briggs, Enhanced Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1977), 982–983.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Hi Michael, I'm sure P1LGR1M will have an answer to this, but in the meantime I wanted to draw attention to the fact that there is two different types of fear mentioned in Scripture:
The "Fear of the Lord" as referenced in various Psalms and Proverbs, and "the spirit of fear" as referenced in 2 Timothy 1:7 *

I would argue that what P1LGR1M is advocating is a Fear of the Lord.

My thoughts are that perhaps those newer to Faith will operate more from a spirit of fear, but as they grow this will transform into a Fear of the Lord that is marked by more of a reverence towards God and His Statutes.

* I would have to give this article credit in helping me in my assertion: What does the Bible say about fear? | GotQuestions.org
There is no distinction, fear is fear.

It is even written, fear is the beginning of wisdom.

However, love is matured within us so we have confidence on the day of judgment, mature love casts out all fear.

If you fear, you're a beginner, that's what the bible says.

What matters is faith expressing it self through love.
 
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David's Harp

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There is no distinction, fear is fear.

It is even written, fear is the beginning of wisdom.

However, love is matured within us so we have confidence on the day of judgment, mature love casts out all fear.

If you fear, you're a beginner, that's what the bible says.

What matters is faith expressing it self through love.

Okay, I think we'll have to quote the Proverbs to see the contrast here:

Proverbs 14:26
"In the fear of the Lord is strong confidence: and his children shall have a place of refuge."

Proverbs 14:27
"The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death.

Proverbs 19:23
"The fear of the Lord tendeth to life: and he that hath it shall abide satisfied; he shall not be visited with evil.

Strong confidence, fountain of life, abiding satisfied, not visited by evil. These statements don't seem like beginner concepts to me, especially given very few seem to be preaching this in relation to the Fear of the Lord.
Also, I would argue that the beginning of wisdom as referenced in Psalm 111:10 doesn't equate with being a beginner Christian. (I'm willing to reconsider this assumption however). Plenty of Christians could be walking without Godly wisdom.

Perfect love casts out fear 1 John 4:18. Are you saying that perfect love (or mature love as you called it) casts out the Fear of the Lord? My my, I think you've struck on something Michael! It certainly would go a long way to explaining some of the viewpoints in this forum.
 
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wendykvw

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You know when I was reading the earlier jokes, I found myself getting caught up in the jesting, and I almost posted something which would have been very funny. But I decided that indeed it's not something to joke about. By doing that you're making light of the gravity of the horrifying nature of this reality. Even if you're in the UR camp, it would be a terrible thing to have to go through. I feel those in the UR camp may have a tendency to not take the seriousness of hell or the lake of fire seriously enough.
I take it seriously and I believe that those in the UR camp take hell or punishment to a higher level of seriousness since we believe that even those who have faith in Christ may end up being punished. They are not being punished to atone for their sin, but to learn from the Lord's discipline. He disciplines those He loves. Heb 12:6
 
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David's Harp

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I take it seriously and I believe that those in the UR camp take hell or punishment to a higher level of seriousness since we believe that even those who have faith in Christ may end up being punished. They are not being punished to atone for their sin, but to learn from the Lord's discipline. He disciplines those He loves. Heb 12:6
Fair enough, only the individual will know themselves how seriously they take it. Regarding the Lord's discipline, I'm trying to follow it now rather than later.
 
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hedrick

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It’s hard to know. There are certainly people who are Christian only for fear of hell. But hell is also one of the biggest problems for Christianity, as many people think the idea of a loving God tormenting people forever is incoherent. So it’s hard to know whether the decreasing attention paid to hell is good or bad for membership.

My own suspicion is that the people who would be susceptible to being Christian because of the threat of hell probably still believe in it, while those who don’t are people who would consider a Christianity with hell in it to be self contradictory.
 
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Hmm

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I guess I'm behind in this area, when exactly was this decline in the Hell Doctrine? Was it a gradual thing due to the rise of Contemporary Christianity?

No, more a return of early Christianity.
 
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wendykvw

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Fair enough, only the individual will know themselves how seriously they take it. Regarding the Lord's discipline, I'm trying to follow it now rather than later.
Any person of faith would say the same. The question is will it be complete before death. The Catholic or Orthodox would say likely no, Protestants would likely say yes. Those of the UR view agree with Catholics and Orthodox, in that sanctification may not be complete after this life.
 
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wendykvw

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It’s hard to know. There are certainly people who are Christian only for fear of hell. But hell is also one of the biggest problems for Christianity, as many people think the idea of a loving God tormenting people forever is incoherent. So it’s hard to know whether the decreasing attention paid to hell is good or bad for membership.

My own suspicion is that the people who would be susceptible to being Christian because of the threat of hell probably still believe in it, while those who don’t are people who would consider a Christianity with hell in it to be self contradictory.
If eternal hell was as effective as many think, we would not see a decline. Islam on the other hand is growing. Christianity has found disfavor for many reasons. The mega church or seeker sensitive movement has moved into an entertainment complex, producing anemic converts who fall away. Also, a serious issue is the lack of apologetics and equipping the body of believers how to defend their faith among the growing atheistic influences.
 
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RDKirk

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If eternal hell was as effective as many think, we would not see a decline. Islam on the other hand is growing. Christianity has found disfavor for many reasons. The mega church or seeker sensitive movement has moved into an entertainment complex, producing anemic converts who fall away. Also, a serious issue is the lack of apologetics and equipping the body of believers how to defend their faith among the growing atheistic influences.

It appears that you're only observing the Church in the West.
 
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RDKirk

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I live in the West, so yes, this is what I observe.

Well, there's the Internet, so we can find out about what the Church is doing in the rest of the world.

The Spirit is moving in Africa, the Middle East, and the Far East. They'll soon be re-missionizing the West.
 
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wendykvw

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Well, there's the Internet, so we can find out about what the Church is doing in the rest of the world.

The Spirit is moving in Africa, the Middle East, and the Far East. They'll soon be re-missionizing the West.
I agree and am familiar with how the spirit of God has moved into other regions of the world. I have had the honor to speak with Muslims and those in China, who have converted to Christianity.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Okay, I think we'll have to quote the Proverbs to see the contrast here:

Proverbs 14:26
"In the fear of the Lord is strong confidence: and his children shall have a place of refuge."

Proverbs 14:27
"The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death.

Proverbs 19:23
"The fear of the Lord tendeth to life: and he that hath it shall abide satisfied; he shall not be visited with evil.

Strong confidence, fountain of life, abiding satisfied, not visited by evil. These statements don't seem like beginner concepts to me, especially given very few seem to be preaching this in relation to the Fear of the Lord.
Also, I would argue that the beginning of wisdom as referenced in Psalm 111:10 doesn't equate with being a beginner Christian. (I'm willing to reconsider this assumption however). Plenty of Christians could be walking without Godly wisdom.

Perfect love casts out fear 1 John 4:18. Are you saying that perfect love (or mature love as you called it) casts out the Fear of the Lord? My my, I think you've struck on something Michael! It certainly would go a long way to explaining some of the viewpoints in this forum.
This isn't a problem to explain. Do you remember on the mountain, where God and Moses had discussions? The people said that they didn't want to be consumed with dying and afraid of dying anymore because of what kept happening with God around them.

God then said, what you said is good, I will raise up a prophet from among your brothers ... and He spoke of Jesus.

This graduation from being afraid of God's presence, is very new testament, and the reason Jesus was sent when He was.

Thank you for the opportunity to share this nuance of the good news of Jesus Christ.
 
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P1LGR1M

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This illustrates that teachings that speak from a spirit of fear, trying to keep people in a state of psychological fear, are lacking spiritual maturity.

Again, it is not me that said...

Matthew 10:28
King James Version

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Luke 12:5
But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.



So how is it that the Lord is trying to"keep people in a state of psychological fear" and is "lacking spiritual maturity?"


Continued...
 
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P1LGR1M

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When faith works through love, this is the correct, non-carnal way of operating in the New Covenant.

Acts 5:11
And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.



So God and the Apostles were not mature and not properly ministering the New Covenant when this happened?


Continued...
 
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