The decline of hell doctrine and church attendance

[P1LGR1M]

There are those here who would presumably associate the decline of hell with a corresponding decline of the influence and power of the church.

My question is, how then do you explain that in the U.S. church attendance has not suffered as much as it has in Europe?

In other words the decline of hell does not seem to correspond to a decline likewise in the power and influence of the church in the U.S.

I would just add, for the sake of those who are not "behind a couple generations" like the Church is, that perhaps we might wonder if Covid hasn't played a part in a purge of Modern Christendom.

Yep, some pretty creative thinking going on in these threads.


God bless.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

So those who believe in the Doctrine of Hell as taught by Jesus Christ are followers of the doctrine of Satan?




I agree: one has to get creative to remove the Doctrine of Hell from Scripture.

Since you add this commentary to the other member's comment, you also believe Hell is a satanic doctrine?

Embraced by people who have rage?



Creative Bible Interpretation.

An apt description.


God bless.

I believe from experience that most people who inhabit churches get their beliefs from the various pastors they've heard over the years, and personal experience.

It's not necessarily a reflection on the actual teaching of hell in the bible.

 

[David's Harp]

I would just add, for the sake of those who are not "behind a couple generations" like the Church is, that perhaps we might wonder if Covid hasn't played a part in a purge of Modern Christendom.

Yep, some pretty creative thinking going on in these threads.


God bless.

What do you mean by purge? That a lot of the older church-going generation have passed away due to Covid? Or that because people couldn't go to church they sought out something else?

[EDIT] Having thought about it a little more, it's probably a combination of both...

 

[Saint Steven]

It's just that some people make a correspondence between the decline of hell and the decline of the church. Whereas in the US the church has not declined. So where does the decline of hell theme come from?

If anything, a decline in the hell doctrine should increase interest in the church. IMHO
Downplaying hell has made the church much more seeker friendly. The closest that most churches get to a hell doctrine is repackaging it as "eternal separation" from God.

The church has been in decline for several decades now. We need to look further back to see the drop in numbers.

A big factor is that young adults have left the church in droves. As soon as they reach the age when they are responsible to get themselves there, they stop attending.

 

[zippy2006]

Decline in a particular view of hell probably isn't that important, though it could be a factor of why some people who in times past may have remained religious at least outwardly out of a fear of going to hell would no longer do so.

The modernist error here is to fixate on the notion of Hell, rejecting it, while simultaneously failing to recognize the crucial aspect of "consequentiality."

A. Christian belief is consequential and important
B. Hell Exists​

If (B) is true, then (A) is true. If (A) is false, then (B) is false. A decline in Christianity goes hand in hand with the belief that (A) is false, and therefore that (B) is false, whether or not we wish to accept the probable reverse causation flowing from the denial of (B).

Psychotherapeutic modernism aside, belief in the doctrine of Hell therefore functions as an important correlate in the constellation of questions about whether Christian belief is thought to be consequential and important. What's interesting is that the OP does not speak of (~B -> ~A) causation, but rather about "association" and "correspondence." Those who are fixated on Universalism see the word "Hell" and can think of nothing other than their distaste for Hell. This is why the Universalists in the thread haven't understood or considered the OP at all, and have instead succumbed to knee-jerk reactionism. More in this same camp will be along shortly.

 

[David's Harp]

The modernist error here is to fixate on the notion of Hell, rejecting it, while simultaneously failing to recognize the crucial aspect of "consequentiality."

A. Christian belief is consequential and important
B. Hell Exists​

If (B) is true, then (A) is true. If (A) is false, then (B) is false. A decline in Christianity goes hand in hand with the belief that (A) is false, and therefore that (B) is false, whether or not we wish to accept the probable reverse causation flowing from the denial of (B).

Psychotherapeutic modernism aside, belief in the doctrine of Hell therefore functions as an important correlate in the constellation of questions about whether Christian belief is thought to be consequential and important. What's interesting is that the OP does not speak of (~B -> ~A) causation, but rather about "association" and "correspondence." Those who are fixated on Universalism see the word "Hell" and can think of nothing other than their distaste for Hell. This is why someone like Hmm hasn't understood or considered the OP at all, and has instead succumbed to knee-jerk reactionism. More reactionary Universalists will be along shortly.

At the same time, confronting (B) by averting to "dozens, perhaps hundreds, of more interconnected factors playing a role," fails to address or consider the above and the centrality of (A).

Where philosophy and mathematics combine.
Way above my pay grade...

What I would ask though: does there have to be tangible evidence of something for it to be an actuality?

 

[Lazarus Short]

Where philosophy and mathematics combine.
Way above my pay grade...

What I would ask though: does there have to be tangible evidence of something for it to be an actuality?

Dante, Milton and Baxter are not "tangible evidence," as their accounts of "hell" are clearly fiction. The Bible is silent on the subject except for bad translation. There is zero evidence for "hell."

 

[Saint Steven]

What I would ask though: does there have to be tangible evidence of something for it to be an actuality?

If a tree in the forest fell...

 

[Saint Steven]

Where philosophy and mathematics combine.
Way above my pay grade...

I think you misspelled "collide". - lol

 

[David's Harp]

If a tree in the forest fell...

I know, I was actually thinking that when I posted.

 

[Saint Steven]

I would just add, for the sake of those who are not "behind a couple generations" like the Church is, that perhaps we might wonder if Covid hasn't played a part in a purge of Modern Christendom.

That's a great point. Strange times we're living in.
I'm protestant, so we could just worship together online.
I felt really bad for our Catholic brothers and sisters, who really needed to be together and present with their priest. The congregation at the Catholic church in our neighborhood met in the parking lot in front of the church to receive Eucharist and worship together.

This certainly played a role in the drops in attendance in recent history. And many never came back.

 

[Saint Steven]

A big factor is that young adults have left the church in droves. As soon as they reach the age when they are responsible to get themselves there, they stop attending.

I should add...

At a previous church we made a real point of learning the children's names. They are statistically more likely to stay in the church as young adults if they feel like part of the church community/family.

 

[Saint Steven]

I agree: one has to get creative to remove the Doctrine of Hell from Scripture.

FYI
There are three biblical positions on the final judgment.
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Ultimate Redemption (UR) Christian Universalism

Hell - Three Christian Views Lecture by Steve Gregg

 

[Der Alte]

* * * The Bible is silent on the subject except for bad translation. There is zero evidence for "hell."

Rubbish. Despite the incessant denials of the UR-ites there is no, zero, none bad translation.
At this link: Why people reject the reality of Hell
See my oft repeated post on the Jewish belief in a fiery place of eternal punishment which they called Sheol and Ge hinnom written as Gehenna and Hades in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
All responses to date have been in the category of "You're wrong and I'm right! Am too! Nuh huh!""

 

[Gregory Thompson]

that perhaps we might wonder if Covid hasn't played a part in a purge of Modern Christendom.

That has more to do with people continuing to attend out of social pressure. When the pandemic restrictions occurred, this caused a pause in all forced socializing throughout society. When the restrictions were lifted, those who didn't want to be going in the first place, simply stopped attending.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I kept seeing the phrase reality of hell, but what if there was a realtor for hell?

 

[Lazarus Short]

Rubbish. Despite the incessant denials of the UR-ites there is bad translation.
At this link: Why people reject the reality of Hell
See my oft repeated post on the Jewish belief in a fiery place of eternal punishment which they called Sheol and Ge hinnom written as Gehenna and Hades in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
All responses to date have been in the category of "You're wrong and I'm right! Am too! Nuh huh!""

Since I reject the "Christian" doctrine of "hell," why should I be at all impressed with ancient Jewish belief in "hell" or something similar? After all, most pagans had a "hell" of some kind in mind for the wicked. I have posted numerous times on various CF threads about "hell" being uncreated, unmentioned in the Law, unmentioned in relation to the deaths of this or that person...and on and on. Your response above also falls into the same category of "You're wrong and I'm right! Am too! Nuh huh!" Most have made up their minds on the subject, unless the Spirit nudges them toward a better understanding. Deal with it.

 

[Lazarus Short]

I kept seeing the phrase reality of hell, but what if there was a realtor for hell?

Funny! I wonder what the real estate listing would look like, and if the realtor for hell would try to describe it as some sort of "ranch." "Fiery Ranch?"

 

[Der Alte]

Since I reject the "Christian" doctrine of "hell," why should I be at all impressed with ancient Jewish belief in "hell" or something similar? After all, most pagans had a "hell" of some kind in mind for the wicked. I have posted numerous times on various CF threads about "hell" being uncreated, unmentioned in the Law, unmentioned in relation to the deaths of this or that person...and on and on. Your response above also falls into the same category of "You're wrong and I'm right! Am too! Nuh huh!" Most have made up their minds on the subject, unless the Spirit nudges them toward a better understanding. Deal with it.

An even more jejune response. What you "reject" is irrelevant. Correct me if I'm wrong here but weren't Jesus and His disciples and all of the early Israelite Christians, Jews and would they not have been taught all the beliefs of the Jews at that time?
Did Jesus or any of His disciples who contributed to the the NT ever say anything which contradicted the then existing belief in "Hell" which as I said before they called "Sheol" and "Gehinnom" and which was written in the 225 BC LXX and the NT as "Gehenna" and "Hades." Jesus used the same terms to refer to a place of eternal fire. As I said what you reject is irrelevant.

 

[Saint Steven]

Funny! I wonder what the real estate listing would look like, and if the realtor for hell would try to describe it as some sort of "ranch." "Fiery Ranch?"

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