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The decline of hell doctrine and church attendance

PuerAzaelis

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There are those here who would presumably associate the decline of hell with a corresponding decline of the influence and power of the church.

My question is, how then do you explain that in the U.S. church attendance has not suffered as much as it has in Europe?

In other words the decline of hell does not seem to correspond to a decline likewise in the power and influence of the church in the U.S.
 

David's Harp

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It's just that some people make a correspondence between the decline of hell and the decline of the church. Whereas in the US the church has not declined. So where does the decline of hell theme come from?
As Wendy points out the internet probably has a big factor in people being able to readily seek out alternative information or viewpoints, and also promote them.

If the church in the US has not declined, then it has to be what the church is teaching does it not? It makes perfect sense to me that church attendance would increase with a feel good message that either does not address hell doctrine, or seeks to transform it into one of Universal Restoration.
Whether that's in line with contending for the Faith as once delivered to the Saints is the big issue it seems. I trust the Bible and the Holy Spirit to guide me. Now there's another thing you could add into the comparison of church attendance or decline: The importance and/or study of God's Word in the Bible (and not a reliance on extra-biblical sources). For me, when I look at it in sum total there's an overwhelming evidence of two groups of people. Those with, and those without God. Why such distinction if all are saved eventually?
 
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PuerAzaelis

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If the church in the US has not declined, then it has to be what the church is teaching does it not? It makes perfect sense to me that church attendance would increase with a feel good message that either does not address hell doctrine, or seeks to transform it into one of Universal Restoration.
Do you think the church in the US has become overall more liberal in the past, say, century and a half?
 
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Gregory Thompson

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There are those here who would presumably associate the decline of hell with a corresponding decline of the influence and power of the church.

My question is, how then do you explain that in the U.S. church attendance has not suffered as much as it has in Europe?

In other words the decline of hell does not seem to correspond to a decline likewise in the power and influence of the church in the U.S.
So ... if people's central belief was hell, does that mean they were really worshiping torment, and not God?
 
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David's Harp

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Do you think the church in the US has become overall more liberal in the past, say, century and a half?
I think we're definitely seeing elements of liberalisation and secularisation creeping into a lot of churches - perhaps in an effort to maintain attendance. I think this is most evident in how churches are responding to the LGBT movement in particular.
I'm not so much aware of the changes in church history going back further (still learning), or how this affects churches in the non-western world.
 
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David's Harp

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Another question to consider is: was there more of 'the Fear of God' say 50-60 years ago?
How does this figure with believers/unbelievers and the change in society in that period. (I believe the 1960s were a pivotal period not just for the church, but for society overall)
Just throwing these thoughts into the mix also.
 
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RDKirk

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What we've had is a decline of the Church being the embodiment of Jesus yet on Earth. When people see the Church and do not see Jesus--or they see what the Church does and says today and do think they're seeing Jesus--that is why there is a decline.
 
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PuerAzaelis

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Another question to consider is: was there more of 'the Fear of God' say 50-60 years ago?
How does this figure with believers/unbelievers and the change in society in that period. (I believe the 1960s were a pivotal period not just for the church, but for society overall)
Just throwing these thoughts into the mix also.
Yes the 60s definitely were pivotal. Not least because the treatment of mental health dramatically changed around that decade.

Let me try to convey one of the (many) things Taylor says about this:

The decline of hell in Christianity corresponds with what Taylor calls the "therapeutic turn" in medicine, particularly the rise of talk therapy and psychoanalysis. Simply, more people began to utilize the avenue of "therapy".

So far so uncontroversial.

What Taylor does is to say that there is a correspondence between that therapeutic turn and a drastic change in the concept of "sin" generally.

Since the therapeutic turn, we no longer seek to "repent" of "sin", but rather to treat our pathologies. Sin becomes sickness.

Now if we are merely trying to treat sickness then the higher value, the higher power, the transcendent (in the figure of the therapist) is no longer trying to rehabilitate the patient, rather she is merely trying to cure him. There is no more attempt to attain some goal beyond human flourishing. Human flourishing in fact becomes the end all and be all of rehabilitation of pathology.

And since human flourishing becomes the primary focus of the treatment of pathology, the application of "punishment" for "sin" becomes anachronistic.

Hence, the decline of hell.

Check this out:

 
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Hmm

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Sn becomes sickness.

Yes, the insanity of Original Sin gives sway to the far wiser Orthodox concept of Ancestral Sin.

Now if we are merely trying to treat sickness then the higher value, the higher power, the transcendent (in the figure of the therapist) is no longer trying to rehabilitate the patient, rather she is merely trying to cure him. There is no more attempt to attain some goal beyond human flourishing. Human flourishing in fact becomes the end all and be all of rehabilitation of pathology.

You are forgetting that human flourishing neccesitates a right relationship with God. We are not islands entire of ourselves.

And since human flourishing becomes the primary focus of the treatment of pathology, the application of "punishment" for "sin" becomes anachronistic.

Yes, it's becoming as anachronistic as being caned at school, just a couple of generations behind as is usual for the church.

Hence, the decline of hell.

Sadly missed by many I'm sure :tearsofjoy:
 
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zippy2006

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Yes the 60s definitely were pivotal. Not least because the treatment of mental health dramatically changed around that decade.

Let me try to convey one of the (many) things Taylor says about this:

The decline of hell in Christianity corresponds with what Taylor calls the "therapeutic turn" in medicine, particularly the rise of talk therapy and psychoanalysis. Simply, more people began to utilize the avenue of "therapy".

So far so uncontroversial.

What Taylor does is to say that there is a correspondence between that therapeutic turn and a drastic change in the concept of "sin" generally.

Since the therapeutic turn, we no longer seek to "repent" of "sin", but rather to treat our pathologies. Sin becomes sickness.

Now if we are merely trying to treat sickness then the higher value, the higher power, the transcendent (in the figure of the therapist) is no longer trying to rehabilitate the patient, rather she is merely trying to cure him. There is no more attempt to attain some goal beyond human flourishing. Human flourishing in fact becomes the end all and be all of rehabilitation of pathology.

And since human flourishing becomes the primary focus of the treatment of pathology, the application of "punishment" for "sin" becomes anachronistic.

Hence, the decline of hell.

This seems right to me.

There are those here who would presumably associate the decline of hell with a corresponding decline of the influence and power of the church.

My question is, how then do you explain that in the U.S. church attendance has not suffered as much as it has in Europe?

In other words the decline of hell does not seem to correspond to a decline likewise in the power and influence of the church in the U.S.

Is this your argument?

"Some say that the declining belief in Hell causes or corresponds to a decline in the influence and power of the church. But if this were true then the church attendance in the United States would have declined as much as the church attendance in Europe, given that the doctrine of Hell is under siege in both the U.S. and Europe. Yet we find that while church attendance in Europe has plummeted, church attendance in the U.S. has remained more stable. Therefore the decline in church influence and attendance is not due to a declining belief in Hell."
 
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ViaCrucis

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There isn't going to be a single answer to "why is the Church on the decline". It's going to be a highly complex and multifaceted reason.

The internet was mentioned, and yes people having access to many more views than in previous generations certainly does play a factor in that--in a lot of ways I imagine. Collusion between politics and religion is another, as that inevitably breeds corruption.

Decline in a particular view of hell probably isn't that important, though it could be a factor of why some people who in times past may have remained religious at least outwardly out of a fear of going to hell would no longer do so.

Diversity is another factor, along with the internet people are coming into personal contact and making interpersonal relationships with many different people with highly diverse views. Half a century ago it was a lot easier, if you grew up in a small Baptist town in the American Bible Belt to basically only know other Baptists, and the most diverse things got was those funky Methodists or Lutherans down the road. But those same small towns, while still mostly what they were, are certainly more diverse now than in the past.

Note, that some of these factors are not themselves bad whatsoever. There's nothing wrong with a more diverse experience of people, or learning about what other people think and believe, and with getting to know different sorts of people. But it certainly will play a factor in why some people, perhaps unsatisfied with their childhood religion, seek out something different.

People reacting to highly strict, legalistic, or otherwise authoritarian religious environments are also going to play a large role. Many of the people I have known who have left the Christian faith did so as a response to very ugly, very abusive, and very harmful churches and church experiences.

Additionally, related to all of these things, people are going to learn some pretty ugly things about history. Christianity was official religion of of kingdoms which engaged in colonizing and genocide--Western Europeans conquering, destroying, and slaughtering indigenous peoples all over the globe; and the onset of racialized ideologies that promoted superiority of a "white race" that was civilized and Christian over and against the inferior and "uncivilized" non-Christian peoples they encountered in the Americas and in Africa. It's not too hard to conceive that many associate Christianity as "the religion of colonizers and enslavers", rather than the religion of a handful of Jewish men and women preaching the Gospel of Jesus. For many, when they think of or look at Christianity they don't see the cross, they see the sword. They don't see that God is on the side of the weak and the oppressed, they see the strong dominating the weak, the wealthy punishing the poor and the hungry. Because if one looks at "Western Christian Civilization" as an historical concept roughly encompassing the period of history from the late 15th century until present day; it's been a fairly ugly, brutal, violent, and un-Christian (I'd dare call it antichrist) kind of civilization.

Those are just a handful of things I can think off the top of my head, and there are certainly dozens, perhaps hundreds, of more interconnected factors playing a role.

But one thing that should be evident is that we bear accountability for how we represent Christianity to our neighbor. And that should drive us to humility and a spirit of repentance. We are to be living epistles of Christ.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Original Happy Camper

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So ... if people's central belief was hell, does that mean they were really worshiping torment, and not God?

no they were worshipping a lie (hell doctrine) from satan IMHO
 
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Gregory Thompson

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no they were worshipping a lie (hell doctrine) from satan IMHO
If you think about it creatively, it wasn't much different than primal scream therapy.

However, once the rage subsided, all interest was lost.

I recall someone that really loved that hell preaching it "got him going" so to speak, all fired up for the week.
 
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P1LGR1M

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There are those here who would presumably associate the decline of hell with a corresponding decline of the influence and power of the church.

My question is, how then do you explain that in the U.S. church attendance has not suffered as much as it has in Europe?

In other words the decline of hell does not seem to correspond to a decline likewise in the power and influence of the church in the U.S.

I would be curious as to what you base your statement "In other words the decline of hell does not seem to correspond to a decline likewise in the power and influence of the church in the U.S."

While I do not give too much credence to polls (because you can always find one to suit your agenda), just a quick search doesn't seem to support the idea that "U.S. church attendance has not suffered..."


For the first time in 80 years, Gallup has found that less than half of US adults belong to a church, synagogue or mosque.


“Americans’ membership in houses of worship continued to decline last year, dropping below 50% for the first time in Gallup’s eight-decade trend,” Gallup reported in a Monday post. “US church membership was 73% when Gallup first measured it in 1937 and remained near 70% for the next six decades, before beginning a steady decline around the turn of the 21st century.”


Membership numbers dropped to 50% by 2018, and last year slipped to 47%.


The decline in membership is due to not only a decline in religious Americans belonging to a church, but also an increase in Americans who do not follow a religion at all, according to Gallup.


“Over the past two decades, the percentage of Americans who do not identify with any religion has grown from 8% in 1998-2000 to 13% in 2008-2010 and 21% over the past three years,” the report added.



Secondly, I would like to see the data to support that there is a "decline of Hell." Other than quotes from Taylor.

Third, what is "the power and influence" of the U.S. Church? Would that be similar to "the power and influence of the Catholic Church?" What triggered the decline of the Catholic Church, if such a decline is acknowledged?

Just curious as to what you are basing this "decline of Hell" on?


God bless.
 
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P1LGR1M

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You are forgetting that human flourishing neccesitates a right relationship with God.

So China is in right relationship with God?

Yes, it's becoming as anachronistic as being caned at school, just a couple of generations behind as is usual for the church.

The Church is usually a couple generations behind...

...who? What?

Sadly missed by many I'm sure :tearsofjoy:

So people who acknowledge the Doctrine of Hell as taught by Jesus Christ would be sad if they couldn't teach that God will punish those who reject Him in Hell forever?


God bless.
 
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P1LGR1M

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no they were worshipping a lie (hell doctrine) from satan IMHO

So those who believe in the Doctrine of Hell as taught by Jesus Christ are followers of the doctrine of Satan?


If you think about it creatively, it wasn't much different than primal scream therapy.

I agree: one has to get creative to remove the Doctrine of Hell from Scripture.

Since you add this commentary to the other member's comment, you also believe Hell is a satanic doctrine?

Embraced by people who have rage?

However, once the rage subsided, all interest was lost.

Creative Bible Interpretation.

An apt description.


God bless.
 
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