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We're talking about forgiveness. the scriptures I shared are relevant to the thread. Do you believe once we're saved, we're always saved and never have to ask for forgiveness or repent after we are redeemed by Christ?I was focusing on Romans 5:12-19 in the current discussion.
But of course, if you rather move away from that, to other scriptures, you will naturally think I am dodging your questions, just as I think you are dodging mine.
We're talking about forgiveness. the scriptures I shared are relevant to the thread. Do you believe once we're saved, we're always saved and never have to ask for forgiveness or repent after we are redeemed by Christ?
Paul also warned followers about sin and potentially falling away. Does the scripture contradict itself?Under the gospel of grace preached by Paul to us in the Body of Christ, yes. I come to that conclusion because of Romans 5:12-19.
To understand how I came to that conclusion, you have to address the 2 questions I have asked. You are free to disagree still I have no problems with that.
Paul also warned followers about sin and potentially falling away. Does the scripture contradict itself?
Hebrews 10:26
1 John 3:6
Romans 6:1-2
John 5:14
1 Corinthians 15:34
John 8:11
If you continue reading the chapter, it is clear we're still presented with choice. And if we sin and choose not to repent of that sin, we risk falling away.Care to explain how Romans 6:1-2 and 1 Corinthians 15:34 is about losing salvation?
If you continue reading the chapter, it is clear we're still presented with choice. And if we sin and choose not to repent of that sin, we risk falling away.
Romans 6:15-16
15 Well then, since God’s grace has set us free from the law, does that mean we can go on sinning? Of course not! 16 Don’t you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living
A more modern one that is a better English translation of the original hebrew.I dunno what version you are using above but let us use the KJV
It has to do with what spirit we follow, and the hope that those born-again by the spirit don't willfully sin. If you read the entire letter, he describes slavery as a choice, and urges the fellow believers to make the right choice to submit to God's will instead of their own. Roman's 5 does not indicate we are free to sin after redemption through Christ and still be automatically forgiven without repentence, especially when you take all the other scriptures I quoted in my previous post. (Which you avoided yet again).This Romans 6 passage has nothing to do with our disobedience or obedience.
especially when you take all the other scriptures I quoted in my previous post. (Which you avoided yet again).
We should forgive others yes so that God will forgive us, but ultimately the most important thing is that Jesus forgives us, that's why we pray to Jesus for forgiveness. I do not see anywhere in scripture about praying to a priest. If you can show me a verse where it specifically says get forgiveness from a priest i might be inclined to the perspective that this needs to happen. But also the most important thing is Jesus forgiving us, right? I thought all Christians were already in agreement on this basic principle.Matt 18 informs us that the matter is not confined to priests/pastors/apostles.
Matt 18:
15 “Now if your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that on the testimony of two or three witnesses every matter may be confirmed. 17 And if he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, he is to be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18 Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.
Peter spells it out for us very specifically --
Matt 18: 21
Then Peter came up and said to Him, “Lord, how many times shall my brother sin against me and I still forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus *said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy-seven times.
Jesus makes it clear in Matt 6 - the Lord's prayer
Matt 6:12 "And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors."
No, we were discussing forgiveness of sins committed after redemption.We are discussing this point "Paul also warned followers about potentially falling away."
Keep to the point.
No, we were discussing forgiveness of sins committed after redemption.
You keep to the point and on-topic.
You can't argue "once saved, always saved" based on one letter written by Paul, you have to include the other scriptures to confirm context.So if you are moving away from Paul, I will not be able to engage you further because that was the original point I was making.
You can't argue "once saved, always saved" based on one letter written by Paul, you have to include the other scriptures to confirm context.
That was the point I was making. You still have to repent for sin after being saved, the ideal is we're not supposed to sin after being saved (at all).
Forgiving others is not so easy.We should forgive others yes so that God will forgive us, but ultimately the most important thing is that Jesus forgives us, that's why we pray to Jesus for forgiveness. I do not see anywhere in scripture about praying to a priest. If you can show me a verse where it specifically says get forgiveness from a priest i might be inclined to the perspective that this needs to happen. But also the most important thing is Jesus forgiving us, right? I thought all Christians were already in agreement on this basic principle.
If we're still sinning after being saved and we don't ask God for forgiveness and repent (turn from sin), we can lose our salvation. That's what I'm saying. It's Scriptural. Accept it or deny it, it's your choice.If all you are saying there is scripture saying you can lose your salvation, I certainly agree with you.
If we're still sinning after being saved and we don't ask God for forgiveness and repent (turn from sin), we can lose our salvation. That's what I'm saying. It's Scriptural. Accept it or deny it, it's your choice.
So Jesus wasn't referring to the here and now when He said these things in Matthew 24:12-14 and Matthew 7:21 IYO?Scripture says different things at different times to different groups of people.
Your task is to rightly divide the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15), and not to assume all scripture contains doctrine for you today.
If scripture says Matthew 5:21-22 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell."Scripture says different things at different times to different groups of people.
Your task is to rightly divide the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15), and not to assume all scripture contains doctrine for you today.
So Jesus wasn't referring to the here and now when He said these things in Matthew 24:12-14 and Matthew 7:21 IYO?
If scripture says Matthew 5:21-22 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell."
Two things I need to address. First, this scripture applies to all people, it does not say to me to not be angry with my brother or sister, and then to you something different. That is to blatantly deny scripture.
Second, if the once saved always saved doctrine is true, why does Jesus warn of the dangers of the fire of hell, wouldn't that not apply if we are truly once saved always saved?
Granted I do not believe in focusing on the negative, we should have our eyes fixed on Heaven and doing good, working out our salvation with fear and trembling, so as to avoid the fire altogether.
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