The debate about forgiving -- is it just priests that forgive?

[concretecamper]

The "how" and mechanics of the ministerial usage of the keys depends on the denomination.

All4Christ posted the EO absolution: My spiritual child, [Name], who have confessed to my humble person, I, humble and a sinner, have not power on earth to forgive sins, but God alone; ... May that same God forgive you all things, through me a sinner,...

So in the EO, the priest is a witness to the confession and announces the absolution almost as a bystander (that is not meant as a theological statement but just as my take away).

Lutheran: Small Catechism
What is confession?
Confession consists of two parts. One is that we confess our sins. The other is that we receive the
absolution, that is, forgiveness, from the pastor as from God himself and by no means doubt but
firmly believe that our sins are thereby forgiven before God in heaven.

"Let it be done for you as you believe. And I, by the command of our Lord Jesus Christ, forgive you your sins in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. Go in peace." (Luther's own basic format)

Lutheran (and possibily Anglican, @Paidiske could comment futher), acts more like Catholic where the pastor / priest is the one proclaiming the absolution, "by virtue of the office" from the 1928 BCP and the 1940 Lutheran Hymnal.

​

My original comment was correcting a post that stated Priests do not forgive. Your post is forcing us down the road of who is a legitimate Priest. I'd rather not have to hurt any feeling today so please can we not go down that road.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

hmmm seems like we have seen that a time or two.

VIII. THE MINISTER OF THIS SACRAMENT
1461 Since Christ entrusted to his apostles the ministry of reconciliation,65 bishops who are their successors, and priests, the bishops' collaborators, continue to exercise this ministry. Indeed bishops and priests, by virtue of the sacrament of Holy Orders, have the power to forgive all sins "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

1462 Forgiveness of sins brings reconciliation with God, but also with the Church. Since ancient times the bishop, visible head of a particular Church, has thus rightfully been considered to be the one who principally has the power and ministry of reconciliation: he is the moderator of the penitential discipline.66 Priests, his collaborators, exercise it to the extent that they have received the commission either from their bishop (or religious superior) or the Pope, according to the law of the Church.67

1463 Certain particularly grave sins incur excommunication, the most severe ecclesiastical penalty, which impedes the reception of the sacraments and the exercise of certain ecclesiastical acts, and for which absolution consequently cannot be granted, according to canon law, except by the Pope, the bishop of the place or priests authorized by them. In danger of death any priest, even if deprived of faculties for hearing confessions, can absolve from every sin and excommunication.69

1464 Priests must encourage the faithful to come to the sacrament of Penance and must make themselves available to celebrate this sacrament each time Christians reasonably ask for it.70

1465 When he celebrates the sacrament of Penance, the priest is fulfilling the ministry of the Good Shepherd who seeks the lost sheep, of the Good Samaritan who binds up wounds, of the Father who awaits the prodigal son and welcomes him on his return, and of the just and impartial judge whose judgment is both just and merciful. The priest is the sign and the instrument of God's merciful love for the sinner.

1466 The confessor is not the master of God's forgiveness, but its servant. The minister of this sacrament should unite himself to the intention and charity of Christ.71 He should have a proven knowledge of Christian behavior, experience of human affairs, respect and sensitivity toward the one who has fallen; he must love the truth, be faithful to the Magisterium of the Church, and lead the penitent with patience toward healing and full maturity. He must pray and do penance for his penitent, entrusting him to the Lord's mercy.

1467 Given the delicacy and greatness of this ministry and the respect due to persons, the Church declares that every priest who hears confessions is bound under very severe penalties to keep absolute secrecy regarding the sins that his penitents have confessed to him. He can make no use of knowledge that confession gives him about penitents' lives.72 This secret, which admits of no exceptions, is called the "sacramental seal," because what the penitent has made known to the priest remains "sealed" by the sacrament.

I agree with the paragraphs from the CCC.
Excellent stuff.

 

[BobRyan]

I agree with the paragraphs from the CCC.
Excellent stuff.

so you admit it is just Bishops and priests that have that power?

Xeno.of.athens said:
Has anyone asserted that forgiving is the exclusive activity of priests, pastors, or apostles?

Then you appear to be one of those people asserting that

 

[All4Christ]

A side note - Remember that confession leads to both reconciliation with God and with the community of believers. The priest is the spiritual head of the community as was designated from the apostolic succession. While the confession of sins used to be presented to the entire church (our sin not only impacts us but also the Body of Christ), pronouncing absolution was still through that headship, which was received by the apostolic succession from the apostles down through the bishops and priests today (where apostolic succession is practiced). We all need to forgive each other though as well.

A beautiful service we have before Lent is Forgiveness Sunday. It is among my favorite and most meaningful services of the year. To ask for forgiveness and give forgiveness to every member of the Church (“God forgives and I forgive”) is crucial, just as the sacrament of confession is critical. We need to reconcile ourselves with the community - with the body of Christ. We still confess to God and need forgiveness from each other, but avoiding confession to a priest is like avoiding going to a doctor to help you heal from sickness (amartia, sin, missing the mark).

Please note that I am not disregarding the role of priests in sacrament of confession and reconciliation with God and the Church. I believe this also is important to remember though when discussing confession and repentance.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

so you admit it is just Bishops and priests that have that power?

Yes, just them. They have that role in the sacrament of reconciliation.
I wonder what mistake you'll make next regarding the sacrament?

 

[Paidiske]

No word game here please


Jn 20:23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

It's not a word game to point out that the usual English translation here is a poor rendering of the actual text. Even if you want to use the above, the passive voice makes the same point I was making; the priest announces God's forgiveness.

Lutheran (and possibily Anglican, @Paidiske could comment futher), acts more like Catholic where the pastor / priest is the one proclaiming the absolution, "by virtue of the office" from the 1928 BCP and the 1940 Lutheran Hymnal.

Pretty much. We have two possible forms of words for absolution (in private confession) in my church. They run thus:

"Our Lord Jesus Christ, who offered himself as the perfect sacrifice to the Father, and who conferred authority on his Church to forgive sins, absolve you through my ministry by the grace of the Holy Spirit, and restore you in the perfect peace of the Church. Amen."

"Our Lord Jesus Christ,
who has left power to his Church to absolve all sinners
who truly repent and believe in him,
of his great mercy forgive you all your offences:
and by his authority, committed to me
I absolve you from all your sins,
in the name of God,
the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen."

It is clear in either case that the forgiveness is Christ's, although we proclaim it.

 

[concretecamper]

It's not a word game to point out that the usual English translation here is a poor rendering of the actual text.

If it were true, I'm sure you would have posted some sources.

Even if you want to use the above, the passive voice

Ugh, the is no passive voice.

the priest announces God's forgiveness.

and the Priest himself, by His power, forgives sins.

 

[Paidiske]

If it were true, I'm sure you would have posted some sources.

You need a source? Have a look here: Greek New Testament Reader with Word Parsing, Morphology, and Dictionary, Lexicon. Click on the last word in verse 23, and it will tell you that it is a "perfect passive indicative."

Ugh, the is no passive voice.

"are forgiven"/"are retained" is passive.

and the Priest himself, by His power, forgives sins.

By capital-h "His"? As in, by God's?

It's God's forgiveness. It's not something the priest makes happen; the priest declares what God does.

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

It's God's forgiveness. It's not something the priest makes happen; the priest declares what God does.

Even EO baptisms are passive. As the priest immerses the baptizee, he says,

The servant of God (Name) is baptized in the Name of the Father (Amen)
And of the Son (Amen)
And of the Holy Spirit (Amen)

Chrismation is similar.

Heck, even when we take the Eucharist, the priest or deacon says, "The servant of God (Name) partakes of the Body and Blood of Christ for the remission of sins and life eternal."

I can't think of anything off the top of my head where liturgical actions in the Orthodox church where the clergy are using anything but a passive voice.

 

[concretecamper]

You need a source? Have a look here: Greek New Testament Reader with Word Parsing, Morphology, and Dictionary, Lexicon. Click on the last word in verse 23, and it will tell you that it is a "perfect passive indicative."

Too funny. You are using the word passive on a totally wrong manner. Lok up what Perfect Passive Indicative 3rd Person Plural means. Ugh!

"are forgiven"/"are retained" is passive.

Not on the manner you think

 

[BobRyan]

I agree with the paragraphs from the CCC.
Excellent stuff.

so you admit it is just Bishops and priests that have that power?

Xeno.of.athens said:
Has anyone asserted that forgiving is the exclusive activity of priests, pastors, or apostles?

Then you appear to be one of those people asserting that

Yes, just them. They have that role in the sacrament of reconciliation.

Appears you have changed your mind a little.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

so you admit it is just Bishops and priests that have that power?



Then you appear to be one of those people asserting that

Appears you have changed your mind a little.

Have a care, the sacrament is not the only source of forgiveness. You will do well to avoid unwarranted conclusions about the extent and limits of priestly authority in forgiveness generally speaking.

 

[Paidiske]

Too funny. You are using the word passive on a totally wrong manner. Lok up what Perfect Passive Indicative 3rd Person Plural means. Ugh!

Not on the manner you think

I know exactly what it means.

The point of the passive in this verse is that it is not the apostles (or their successors) who make the outcome (forgiveness or not) happen. The passive indicates that God has already done it (it has been done), and the apostles (or their successors) simply proclaim that.

 

[concretecamper]

The point of the passive in this verse is that it is not the apostles (or their successors) who make the outcome (forgiveness or not) happen. The passive indicates that God has already done it (it has been done), and the apostles (or their successors) simply proclaim that.

It is not the point, it was never the point, it will never be the point. The passive voice DOES NOT mean passive in activity or function.

If this is what it takes to get around scripture and it's meaning, God Bless.

They were told this by Christ before He ascended. Oh wait, I just used the passive voice and that fact wouldn't diminish the Apostle's function or activity.

 

[The Liturgist]

It really is a great pity that Martin Luther separated from the Catholic Church. So much trouble has come of it. Yet, history is played out according to God's secret purposes and even the troubles that arose must be received by the faithful as somehow salutary.

Well actually I would argue that Luther leaving did not do any damage, rather, there were other, more destructive schisms that happened later. Furthermore, if Luther hadn’t left, you would not have benefitted from the Counter Reformation and the Council of Trent, which for the most part were tremendously positive for the church, for example, the Tridentine prohibition on the sale of indulgences.

 

[The Liturgist]

So then "hate your mother and father" in Matt 10 should be isolated from all other Bible texts about loving our neighbor as ourselves as in Matt 22?? in your POV?

This is a red herring and is irrelevant to the subject matter.

No text says 'The apostles' rather it is always "you" and it is in fact "each one of you" in Matt 18 just as in Matt 6 "forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors". There is never a "just the Apostles" qualifier

That is a reference to the church discipline he called the church to exercise in 1 Cor 5 -- disfellowshiping someone who was in open sin - to try and convince them to repent and return. It was a corporate action by the entire church to cast that person out.

What I think you aren’t getting is that clergy act on behalf of the entire church. This is why it is unfortunate that the KJV and other English Bibles use the word Priest to translate Kohanim and other sacerdotal priests, rather than to translate Presbyter, which it should be used exclusively for, because the word Presbyter, which means Elder, is a New Testament office, as is Episkopoi, from which the word Bishop is derived, which means Superintendent (one thing John Wesley did which I like is to render these titles into modern English, so initially the Methodist Episcopal Church had Elders and Superintendents, although later the leaders of regional conferences confusingly began calling themselves bishops.

2 Cor 2:5 But if anyone has caused sorrow, he has caused sorrow not for me, but in some degree—not to say too much—for all of you. 6 Sufficient for such a person is this punishment which was imposed by the majority, 7 so that on the other hand, you should rather forgive and comfort him, otherwise such a person might be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8 Therefore I urge you to reaffirm your love for him. 9 For to this end I also wrote, so that I might put you to the test, whether you are obedient in all things. 10 But one whom you forgive anything, I also forgive; for indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, I did so for your sakes in the presence of Christ, 11 so that no advantage would be taken of us by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his schemes.

He calls for the entire church to forgive the repentant offender

Which has nothing to do with the Presbyter or Bishop pronouncing God’s forgiveness.

2 Cor 7:8 For though I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it—for I see that that letter caused you sorrow, though only for a while— 9 I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to the point of repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to the will of God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us. 10 For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death. 11 For behold what earnestness this very thing, this godly sorrow, has produced in you: what vindication of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what longing, what zeal, what punishment of wrong! In everything you demonstrated yourselves to be innocent in the matter. 12 So although I wrote to you, it was not for the sake of the offender nor for the sake of the one offended, but that your earnestness in our behalf might be made known to you in the sight of God. 13 Because of this, we have been comforted.

None of this has any bearing on absolution pronounced by clergy. As has been said we confess to God and the priest pronounces absolution. This can be done in a general or specific way, the latter being auricular confession.

 

[The Liturgist]

So then "hate your mother and father" in Matt 10 should be isolated from all other Bible texts about loving our neighbor as ourselves as in Matt 22?? in your POV?

This is a red herring and is irrelevant to the subject matter.

No text says 'The apostles' rather it is always "you" and it is in fact "each one of you" in Matt 18 just as in Matt 6 "forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors". There is never a "just the Apostles" qualifier

That is a reference to the church discipline he called the church to exercise in 1 Cor 5 -- disfellowshiping someone who was in open sin - to try and convince them to repent and return. It was a corporate action by the entire church to cast that person out.

What I think you aren’t getting is that clergy act on behalf of the entire church. This is why it is unfortunate that the KJV and other English Bibles use the word Priest to translate Kohanim and other sacerdotal priests, rather than to translate Presbyter, which it should be used exclusively for, because the word Presbyter, which means Elder, is a New Testament office, as is Episkopoi, from which the word Bishop is derived, which means Superintendent (one thing John Wesley did which I like is to render these titles into modern English, so initially the Methodist Episcopal Church had Elders and Superintendents, although later the leaders of regional conferences confusingly began calling themselves bishops.

2 Cor 2:5 But if anyone has caused sorrow, he has caused sorrow not for me, but in some degree—not to say too much—for all of you. 6 Sufficient for such a person is this punishment which was imposed by the majority, 7 so that on the other hand, you should rather forgive and comfort him, otherwise such a person might be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8 Therefore I urge you to reaffirm your love for him. 9 For to this end I also wrote, so that I might put you to the test, whether you are obedient in all things. 10 But one whom you forgive anything, I also forgive; for indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, I did so for your sakes in the presence of Christ, 11 so that no advantage would be taken of us by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his schemes.

He calls for the entire church to forgive the repentant offender

Which has nothing to do with the Presbyter or Bishop pronouncing God’s forgiveness.

2 Cor 7:8 For though I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it—for I see that that letter caused you sorrow, though only for a while— 9 I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to the point of repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to the will of God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us. 10 For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death. 11 For behold what earnestness this very thing, this godly sorrow, has produced in you: what vindication of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what longing, what zeal, what punishment of wrong! In everything you demonstrated yourselves to be innocent in the matter. 12 So although I wrote to you, it was not for the sake of the offender nor for the sake of the one offended, but that your earnestness in our behalf might be made known to you in the sight of God. 13 Because of this, we have been comforted.

None of this has any bearing on absolution pronounced by clergy. As has been said we confess to God and the priest pronounces absolution. This can be done in a general or specific way, the latter being auricular confession.

 

[The Liturgist]

It's not a word game to point out that the usual English translation here is a poor rendering of the actual text. Even if you want to use the above, the passive voice makes the same point I was making; the priest announces God's forgiveness.

Pretty much. We have two possible forms of words for absolution (in private confession) in my church. They run thus:

"Our Lord Jesus Christ, who offered himself as the perfect sacrifice to the Father, and who conferred authority on his Church to forgive sins, absolve you through my ministry by the grace of the Holy Spirit, and restore you in the perfect peace of the Church. Amen."

"Our Lord Jesus Christ,
who has left power to his Church to absolve all sinners
who truly repent and believe in him,
of his great mercy forgive you all your offences:
and by his authority, committed to me
I absolve you from all your sins,
in the name of God,
the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen."

It is clear in either case that the forgiveness is Christ's, although we proclaim it.

I think what @PsaltiChrysostom is referring to in the Anglican context is the theology we see reflected in, for example, how the prayer for absolution is different at Evensong and Mattins depending on whether or not it is a presbyter or bishop, or a member of the laity, presiding.

Specifically,

The Absolution or Remission of sins to be pronounced by the Priest alone, standing: the people still kneeling.

ALMIGHTY God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who desireth not the death of a sinner, but rather that he may turn from his wickedness, and live; and hath given power, and commandment, to his Ministers, to declare and pronounce to his people, being penitent, the Absolution and Remission of their sins : He pardoneth and absolveth all them that truly repent, and unfeignedly believe his holy Gospel. Wherefore let us beseech him to grant us true repentance, and his Holy Spirit, that those things may please him, which we do at this present; and that the rest of our life hereafter may be pure, and holy; so that at the last we may come to his eternal joy; through Jesus Christ our Lord.

If no priest be present the person saying the service shall read the Collect for the Twenty-First Sunday after Trinity, that person and the people still kneeling.

The Collect referred to in that rubric is as follows:

GRANT, we beseech thee, merciful Lord, to thy faithful people pardon and peace, that they may be cleansed from all their sins, and serve thee with a quiet mind; through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

For anyone curious, who is unfamiliar with Anglican liturgics, the other appointed propers for the 21st Sunday After Trinity are as follows:

The Epistle. Ephes. 6. 10.

MY brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the Gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the Gospel, For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

The Gospel. St. John 4. 46.

THERE was a certain nobleman, whose son was sick at Capernaum. When he heard that Jesus was come out of Judaea into Galilee, he went unto him, and besought him that he would come down, and heal his son: for he was at the point of death. Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe. The nobleman saith unto him, Sir, come down ere my child die. Jesus saith unto him, Go thy way; thy son liveth. And the man believed the word that Jesus had spoken unto him, and he went his way. And as he was now going down, his servants met him, and told him, saying, Thy son liveth. Then enquired he of them the hour when he began to amend. And they said unto him, Yesterday at the seventh hour the fever left him. So the father knew that it was at the same hour, in the which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house. This is again the second miracle that Jesus did, when he was come out of Judaea into Galilee.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:
So then "hate your mother and father" in Matt 10 should be isolated from all other Bible texts about loving our neighbor as ourselves as in Matt 22?? in your POV?

This is a red herring and is irrelevant to the subject matter.

On the contrary - it shows the need to check into the topic with some degree of completeness rather than running off with a tiny snip as if that puts you on the right track.

 

[BobRyan]

What I think you aren’t getting is that clergy act on behalf of the entire church.

Not possible in the cases I gave -

For example in Matt 6 "Forgive us our debts as we forgive those who sin against us" - is a prayer not at all confined to clergy and not at all in the form "my clergy prayed that prayer for me - so I don't do it".

I don't know of any denomination that goes to the extreme of telling members not to pray the Lord's prayer or that the clergy pray it for them so they are not supposed to pray that prayer etc.