The death of the Virgin in RCC imagery

[Optimax]

The Bible doesn't mention how or when she died. There is no mention of her after the Book of Acts, Chapter 1, I believe.

That is because it is not about her.

It is about Jesus.

 

[Optimax]

Mary gave some of the best advice that is recorded in the Bible.


Remember the wedding?

John 2:1-2
1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:

2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
KJV


This is what Mary said!

John 2:5
His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.
KJV

Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it!

That is what Mary instructed.

Jesus said;

John 3:3
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
KJV

John 3:7
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
KJV


Listen to Mary!

This is how to be born again.

Rom 10:9-10

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
KJV

 

[AveMaria_45]

That is because it is not about her.

It is about Jesus.

I thought it was about all of us. doesn't it talk to all of us? why are there so many threads h8in on Mary? she's dead, she can't hear you, on and on. some of you guys have issues

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The dogma of the Assumption is silent on whether or not Mary died, and the Pope who proclaimed it seemed to lean towards death.

That was easy.

Sometimes the silence can be deafening

1 Corinthians 4:6 These-things yet brethren! I after-figure into myself and Apollos thru/because-of ye.
That in us, ye may be learning the no above that which hath been Written, *to think* that no one over the one ye may be being puffed up against the other/different.

YouTube - Paul Simon and Art Garfunkel - The Sounds of Silence Lyrics

 

[Dark_Lite]

Sometimes the silence can be deafening

1 Corinthians 4:6 These-things yet brethren! I after-figure into myself and Apollos thru/because-of ye.
That in us, ye may be learning the no above that which hath been Written, *to think* that no one over the one ye may be being puffed up against the other/different.

YouTube - Paul Simon and Art Garfunkel - The Sounds of Silence Lyrics

And yet, then there is the exhortation by the apostles to remain true to what was taught orally, as well as some Biblical authors explicitly stating that there are things that Jesus did that are not written in the Bible.

Context. Always context.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

And yet, then there is the exhortation by the apostles to remain true to what was taught orally, as well as some Biblical authors explicitly stating that there are things that Jesus did that are not written in the Bible.

Context. Always context.

This thread isn't about Jesus, but rather concerning Mariology.

The death of the Virgin in RCC imagery

That is why CF created a whole board dedicated to her

Mariology & Hagiography - Christian Forums

http://www.christianforums.com/t6712549/
The Assumption Of The Blessed Virgin

 

[MrPolo]

Contrary to what many of our Catholic brethren (and sisters, too, I might add) now believe, the teaching of the Catholic Church was, for centuries, that Mary died.

Kapha is correct. The Church doesn't have a defined position on whether or not she died because of the nuanced language of her being assumed at the completion of the course of her earthly life (see the defining paragraph #44 of her Assumption Munificentissimus Deus).

That being said, the other paragraphs in the doc apart from the definition of the Assumption indicate that she did indeed die. Paragraphs #17 and #21 from Munificentissimus Deus reads:

#17 - In the liturgical books which deal with the feast either of the dormition or of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin there are expressions that agree in testifying that, when the Virgin Mother of God passed from this earthly exile to heaven, what happened to her sacred body was, by the decree of divine Providence, in keeping with the dignity of the Mother of the Word Incarnate, and with the other privileges she had been accorded. Thus, to cite an illustrious example, this is set forth in that sacramentary which Adrian I, our predecessor of immortal memory, sent to the Emperor Charlemagne. These words are found in this volume: "Venerable to us, O Lord, is the festivity of this day on which the holy Mother of God suffered temporal death, but still could not be kept down by the bonds of death, who has begotten your Son our Lord incarnate from herself."

#21 - It was fitting that she, who had kept her virginity intact in childbirth, should keep her own body free from all corruption even after death.​

So there is no change in belief. "Assumption" does not automatically equal "didn't die." Any modern theologian or apologist I've heard on the subject also posit that she died.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Here is what the Cathechism of the Catholic Church has to say about the Assumption:


966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death." The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:
In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.

As noted by others, there is wiggle room for her death in the statement that she was assumed "when the course of her earthly life was finished". There are some difficulties with either scenario, to wit:

1. If she did die she would have endured the wages of sin, which is death. That means, of course, that she was not sinless. Christ, who did die, endured the wages of sin, not of His own sin, but for the sins of the world. If He carried the penalty (death) of the sins of the world, then that would leave the penalty to be endured, for everyone else in a physical sense of the word and for unbelievers in the spiritual sense of death. No Christian believes that Mary endured spiritual death, but if she endured physical death her death was either the result of her own sin inherited as a result of the Fall or it may be, as a few have asserted, that it was in relation to her role as co-redemptix with Christ in atoning for the sins of the world.

2. If Mary's death was redemptive in nature, then Christ's death and atonement were incomplete and insufficient in and of themselves for the redemption of mankind.

3. If Mary did not experience physical death, then it would be proof positive of her immaculate conception and sinless life. If she did die, however, it would mean that sin had entered her life, probably at the point of conception, meaning that she was not immaculately conceived, which denies the Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception.

Let's chew on these three for a while.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Edit: I may just hang around a little while longer........should be fun

 

[AveMaria_45]

Mary gave some of the best advice that is recorded in the Bible.


Remember the wedding?

John 2:1-2
1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:

2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
KJV


This is what Mary said!

John 2:5
His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.
KJV

Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it!

That is what Mary instructed.

Jesus said;

John 3:3
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
KJV

John 3:7
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
KJV


Listen to Mary!

This is how to be born again.

Rom 10:9-10

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
KJV

i think you need to listen to your own advice. you said listen to Mary. we say the same thing. a while ago you said its all about Jesus and now you say listen to Mary. what are you going to say next. lol

 

[Dark_Lite]

As noted by others, there is wiggle room for her death in the statement that she was assumed "when the course of her earthly life was finished". There are some difficulties with either scenario, to wit:

1. If she did die she would have endured the wages of sin, which is death. That means, of course, that she was not sinless. Christ, who did die, endured the wages of sin, not of His own sin, but for the sins of the world. If He carried the penalty (death) of the sins of the world, then that would leave the penalty to be endured, for everyone else in a physical sense of the word and for unbelievers in the spiritual sense of death. No Christian believes that Mary endured spiritual death, but if she endured physical death her death was either the result of her own sin inherited as a result of the Fall or it may be, as a few have asserted, that it was in relation to her role as co-redemptix with Christ in atoning for the sins of the world.

2. If Mary's death was redemptive in nature, then Christ's death and atonement were incomplete and insufficient in and of themselves for the redemption of mankind.

3. If Mary did not experience physical death, then it would be proof positive of her immaculate conception and sinless life. If she did die, however, it would mean that sin had entered her life, probably at the point of conception, meaning that she was not immaculately conceived, which denies the Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception.

Let's chew on these three for a while.

Not willing to let it go, are you?

1. Handled by the theology of the immaculate conception.

2. Irrelevant, as that's not what happened.

3. The death from was sin was spiritual.

 

[MrPolo]

1. If she did die she would have endured the wages of sin, which is death. That means, of course, that she was not sinless.

The wages of sin are death, but it is not logical to say anyone who dies did so because they sinned. You cannot impose onto the text that "sin is the only reason anyone dies." The text doesn't say that. You are arguing All sinners die. Therefore all those who die are sinners.

Your formula is All A are B. Therefore All B are A.

But let's test your logic. All Tomatoes are Red. Therefore All Red things are tomatoes.

That is by definition a logical error. You have precluded that God could will other reasons beside sin for someone to die.

You avoided the fact that Jesus died by saying He died for others' sins, but if as you insist anyone who dies did so because of their own sin, then you too are admitting there can be other reasons besides personal sin that can result in death.

2. If Mary's death was redemptive in nature, then Christ's death and atonement were incomplete and insufficient in and of themselves for the redemption of mankind.

Mary's suffering, like anyone else's suffering is a participation in Christ's suffering (1 Pet. 4:13). There's no competition with Christ. We are united to the One Body, and as such participate in His suffering in that way. Mary participated in a special way, as prophesied by Simeon (Lk 2:34-35).

3. If she did die, however, it would mean that sin had entered her life

Same faulty deduction as #1.

Thanks, I enjoyed chewing on that.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Edit: I may just hang around a little while longer........should be fun

Thanks. As always, I enjoy your input.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Not willing to let it go, are you?

Nope. I suppose I might be accused of invincible curiosity.

1. Handled by the theology of the immaculate conception.

Please expand on this.

2. Irrelevant, as that's not what happened.

And you know this how?

3. The death from was sin was spiritual.

Thank you for your view on this.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The wages of sin are death, but it is not logical to say anyone who dies did so because they sinned. You cannot impose onto the text that "sin is the only reason anyone dies." The text doesn't say that. You are arguing All sinners die. Therefore all those who die are sinners.

Your formula is All A are B. Therefore All B are A.

But let's test your logic. All Tomatoes are Red. Therefore All Red things are tomatoes.

That is by definition a logical error. You have precluded that God could will other reasons beside sin for someone to die.

You avoided the fact that Jesus died by saying He died for others' sins, but if as you insist anyone who dies did so because of their own sin, then you too are admitting there can be other reasons besides personal sin that can result in death.Mary's suffering, like anyone else's suffering is a participation in Christ's suffering (1 Pet. 4:13). There's no competition with Christ. We are united to the One Body, and as such participate in His suffering in that way. Mary participated in a special way, as prophesied by Simeon (Lk 2:34-35).Same faulty deduction as #1.

Thanks, I enjoyed chewing on that.

You are welcome.

Paul makes it explicitly clear in his letter to the Romans that death is the outcome of sin and that the origin of sin was in Adam. His argument is that all die as a result of sin and he does state the antithesis that those who do not sin do not die, viz. Jesus Christ. In fact, he makes it clear that the only person who did not deserve to die as a result of His own sin was Jesus Christ. If there were others, such as Mary, it seems that he would have made it quite explicit that she did not die, and that the reason was that, like her Son, she did not inherit the sin of Adam nor did she sin. Moreover, Paul never mentions her at all, nor do any of the other writers of letters. This silence, at best, is puzzling. Even if Mary had died and was assumed into heaven as witnessed by many then surely some mention of this miraculous event would have been recorded in the scriptures, would it not?

 

[Rhamiel]

Here is what the Cathechism of the Catholic Church has to say about the Assumption:


966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death." The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:
In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.

As noted by others, there is wiggle room for her death in the statement that she was assumed "when the course of her earthly life was finished". There are some difficulties with either scenario, to wit:

1. If she did die she would have endured the wages of sin, which is death. That means, of course, that she was not sinless. Christ, who did die, endured the wages of sin, not of His own sin, but for the sins of the world. If He carried the penalty (death) of the sins of the world, then that would leave the penalty to be endured, for everyone else in a physical sense of the word and for unbelievers in the spiritual sense of death. No Christian believes that Mary endured spiritual death, but if she endured physical death her death was either the result of her own sin inherited as a result of the Fall or it may be, as a few have asserted, that it was in relation to her role as co-redemptix with Christ in atoning for the sins of the world.

2. If Mary's death was redemptive in nature, then Christ's death and atonement were incomplete and insufficient in and of themselves for the redemption of mankind.

3. If Mary did not experience physical death, then it would be proof positive of her immaculate conception and sinless life. If she did die, however, it would mean that sin had entered her life, probably at the point of conception, meaning that she was not immaculately conceived, which denies the Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception.

Let's chew on these three for a while.

This is exactly why I used to lean towards the belief that she did not die but only go into a deep sleep or coma

but many people say that she did die before being assumed, I am not sure on this
never really studied the theology

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

This is exactly why I used to lean towards the belief that she did not die but only go into a deep sleep or coma

but many people say that she did die before being assumed, I am not sure on this
never really studied the theology

May I respectfully ask why this issue is so important to the RCC? Thanks

 

[bbbbbbb]

This is exactly why I used to lean towards the belief that she did not die but only go into a deep sleep or coma

but many people say that she did die before being assumed, I am not sure on this
never really studied the theology

That is where I am coming from myself. I am attempting to find out the ramifications of the various views.

 

[Rhamiel]

May I respectfully ask why this issue is so important to the RCC? Thanks

Jesus is God and Man, ofcourse He is going to be ok

the assumption of Mary is a sign that Jesus saves the Church

 

[Optimax]

the assumption of Mary is a sign that Jesus saves the Church

Could you explain how that would equates to a sign that Jesus saves the Church?