The death of the Virgin in RCC imagery

[bbbbbbb]

Contrary to what many of our Catholic brethren (and sisters, too, I might add) now believe, the teaching of the Catholic Church was, for centuries, that Mary died.

For specific proof one needs go no further than many of the Gothic churches of Europe.

One very typical example is the tympanum of the (so-called) St. Anne Portal of the west front of Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris which clearly depicts the entombment of the body of Mary. Here is an excellent photograph of it - st. anne portal notre dame cathedral paris - Bing Images

In the same Cathedral (Notre Dame in Paris) the north poral of the west facade has a typanum entitled Cornotation of the Virgin which also clearly depicts the entomebment of Mary. Here is an excellent photograph of it - cornotation of the virgin portal notre dame cathedral paris - Bing Images

Likewise the typanum of the west portal of Senlis (Oise, in France) Cathedral also clearly depcits the entombment of the body of Mary. Here is an excellent photograph of it - west portal notre dame cathedral senlis - Bing Images#

There are mutliple other examples but I will start with these three.

The primary question is, if the Assumption of Mary is dogmatic Truth for all time and has always been believed by the (Catholic) Church, why is the evidence clearly opposed to this belief?

 

[Tangible]

Side note: I visited Notre Dame de Paris once. Unfortunately it was a quick visit and I didn't really know what I was seeing.

That said, I'll bow out since I don't have a dog in this fight. Lutherans view the Assumption of Mary as an adiphoron, something that can either be believed or not without affecting one's salvation.

 

[Kepha]

Alot of Catholics believed She died before being Assumed. Not sure what the problem is here actually. The Dogma reads that at the end of Her earthly life, Mother Mary was Assumed into Heaven. It doesn't say She was Assumed into Heaven without seeing death.

 

[BrendanMark]

Very much a later development. It all really started after the whole Theotokos debate hit full steam. Who says it's always been believed? It's something I've never heard from the RCC - which means I just might not have heard of it.

Despite years of research, the historical record has still yielded no clear witness to the Virgin’s Dormition and Assumption from the earliest church. Rather surprising, the early centuries of Christianity, as they are preserved for us today, maintain a profound silence regarding the end of Mary’s life. The pre-Nicene Fathers show complete disregard for this event, not even mentioning her death, and only at the end of the fourth century does this gap in the early Christian tradition first generate any visible concern. As with the events of Mary’s birth and childhood, the writings of the New Testament are similarly silent regarding the end of Mary’s life.
Shoemaker, Stephen J. – Ancient Traditions of the Virgin Mary’s Dormition and Assumption [Oxford Early Christian Studies, 2002, p. 10-11]

 

[Standing Up]

Contrary to what many of our Catholic brethren (and sisters, too, I might add) now believe, the teaching of the Catholic Church was, for centuries, that Mary died.

For specific proof one needs go no further than many of the Gothic churches of Europe.

One very typical example is the tympanum of the (so-called) St. Anne Portal of the west front of Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris which clearly depicts the entombment of the body of Mary. Here is an excellent photograph of it - st. anne portal notre dame cathedral paris - Bing Images

In the same Cathedral (Notre Dame in Paris) the north poral of the west facade has a typanum entitled Cornotation of the Virgin which also clearly depicts the entomebment of Mary. Here is an excellent photograph of it - cornotation of the virgin portal notre dame cathedral paris - Bing Images

Likewise the typanum of the west portal of Senlis (Oise, in France) Cathedral also clearly depcits the entombment of the body of Mary. Here is an excellent photograph of it - west portal notre dame cathedral senlis - Bing Images#

There are mutliple other examples but I will start with these three.

The primary question is, if the Assumption of Mary is dogmatic Truth for all time and has always been believed by the (Catholic) Church, why is the evidence clearly opposed to this belief?

Epiphanius in 377ad said, we don't know what happened to Mary.

Now they do know after a few hundred more years; furthermore it is a dogma. RC has to believe it or what's the penalty?

 

[Rhamiel]

The Church in the East has always said that the Virgin Mary died and then was assumed into heaven
The Church in the West holds it as a thing that is free for the believer to decide for themself, if it was before or after death that Mary was assumed into heaven

I used to believe that Mary never died, but now I take a more eastern view of it
like i said the Catholic Church says that the believers are free to believe either thing

people view the Catholic Church as being draconian, but there are many schools of thought, liturgical styles and just general room for freedom
What is Dogma is dogma, what is not is not

 

[Frogster]

she decayed, she was in adam.

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

she decayed, she was in adam.

The Bible doesn't mention how or when she died. There is no mention of her after the Book of Acts, Chapter 1, I believe.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

Contrary to what many of our Catholic brethren (and sisters, too, I might add) now believe, the teaching of the Catholic Church was, for centuries, that Mary died.
...
The primary question is, if the Assumption of Mary is dogmatic Truth for all time and has always been believed by the (Catholic) Church, why is the evidence clearly opposed to this belief?

Because Mary's death and her Assumption are not contradictory. Mary died, was raised from the dead and was assumed into Heaven. This is what Catholics, Orthodox and many Anglicans believe. Even Martin Luther said that she is in Heaven (and he believed in soul sleep for everyone else) -- Lutherans celebrate Mary on Aug 15, the same day as we (Catholics/Orthodox) celebrate her Dormition/Assumption.

Jesus died, was raised from the dead ascended into Heaven. Mary died, was raised from the dead and was taken (assumed) into Heaven. With the exception of those alive at the end of the world, we will die, be raised from the dead and be taken into Heaven. I don't want to say that there is nothing extraordinary about these things -- of course they are -- but there shouldn't be any discord, there shouldn't be any reason we can accept one of these things but think that the others are unacceptable. They all go together.

Dormition of the Theotokos -- The 'child' that Jesus is holding is Mary's soul.

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

Contrary to what many of our Catholic brethren (and sisters, too, I might add) now believe, the teaching of the Catholic Church was, for centuries, that Mary died.

For specific proof one needs go no further than many of the Gothic churches of Europe.

One very typical example is the tympanum of the (so-called) St. Anne Portal of the west front of Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris which clearly depicts the entombment of the body of Mary. Here is an excellent photograph of it - st. anne portal notre dame cathedral paris - Bing Images

In the same Cathedral (Notre Dame in Paris) the north poral of the west facade has a typanum entitled Cornotation of the Virgin which also clearly depicts the entomebment of Mary. Here is an excellent photograph of it - cornotation of the virgin portal notre dame cathedral paris - Bing Images

Likewise the typanum of the west portal of Senlis (Oise, in France) Cathedral also clearly depcits the entombment of the body of Mary. Here is an excellent photograph of it - west portal notre dame cathedral senlis - Bing Images#

There are mutliple other examples but I will start with these three.

The primary question is, if the Assumption of Mary is dogmatic Truth for all time and has always been believed by the (Catholic) Church, why is the evidence clearly opposed to this belief?

You should really study what Catholics believe before creating topics.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

she decayed, she was in adam.

Explain what your terms mean.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

Epiphanius in 377ad said, we don't know what happened to Mary.

Now they do know after a few hundred more years;

That's the way history works. Sometimes one person doesn't know something. Then later people find out more information. This doesn't mean it wasn't contained within the faith transmitted to the Church from the Apostles who saw it happen. Epiphanius was a bishop but he is still just one man.

furthermore it is a dogma. RC has to believe it or what's the penalty?

Or else you aren't Catholic.

 

[Dark_Lite]

The dogma of the Assumption is silent on whether or not Mary died, and the Pope who proclaimed it seemed to lean towards death.

That was easy.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

The dogma of the Assumption is silent on whether or not Mary died, and the Pope who proclaimed it seemed to lean towards death.

That was easy.

Yes, the formal definition just says:

..the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.

But her death (Dormition) is too widely celebrated to be seriously called into question, even if a small minority have attempted to do so.

 

[RND]

What proof is there that Mary, mother of Jesus, was bodily assumed? (I thought she was awaiting resurrection just like all the dead).

 

[Standing Up]

That's the way history works. Sometimes one person doesn't know something. Then later people find out more information. This doesn't mean it wasn't contained within the faith transmitted to the Church from the Apostles who saw it happen. Epiphanius was a bishop but he is still just one man.

He perhaps should have mentioned Martha about when:

Jn. 11:24 "Yes," Martha said, "when everyone else rises, on resurrection day."

Or else you aren't Catholic.

So, if it doesn't mean anything, why make it a dogma?

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

He perhaps should have mentioned Martha about when:

Jn. 11:24 "Yes," Martha said, "when everyone else rises, on resurrection day."

Because that wasn't the purpose of the statement.

If I said, "everyone dies", it is not a false statement, it is a general statement. I don't have to add on "well, except Elijah and Enoch" to make it a true statement.

So, if it doesn't mean anything, why make it a dogma?

That doesn't mean anything?

Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith.

That means quite a lot.

 

[Rhamiel]

But her death (Dormition) is too widely celebrated to be seriously called into question, even if a small minority have attempted to do so.

I have heard that dormation could just have been a deep sleep or coma like state and not true death

as for me, I lean towards the idea that she died, but I will not call into question those who do not believe this

 

[AveMaria_45]

You should really study what Catholics believe before creating topics.

I agree with you. some of this stuff is wrong and mean.