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The Danger of Creationism: why I post

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Vance

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The reason why I engage in these discussions is very simple: I want to remove the stumbling block to the Gospel message that is being created by a dogmatic presentation of Creationism. Not the belief in a young earth and creation without evolution per se, but the “either/or” teaching that comes with it. I am not here to argue for an old earth or evolution, necessarily (although I do engage in that discussion as well), but against the false dichotomy that so often comes along with Creationism. More and more people are being taught that an old earth/evolution and Christianity are wholly inconsistent and that if you believe one, you can not really believe the other. Such a blanket statement puts two very distinct groups in crisis and I am convinced that souls are being lost to the Kingdom as a result. This may sound a bit over-dramatic, but I have seen too many people distracted from the Gospel message by this issue. Here are the two groups I think are in danger:


First, there are Christians, especially young people, who have been raised in a dogmatic Creationist households or attend such a church, and have been taught that evolution, or even an old earth, are evil and absolutely contrary to Scripture. That if you believe Scripture, you can not also believe in these “lies”. They are taught that those who do believe both are deluded or compromising Christians, probably not even worthy of the name of Christian. They are taught these as absolute truths, rather than one interpretation among the many that sincere Christians hold. These young people are ingrained with this teaching and accept it fully. Then they come into contact with the scientific evidence and begin to suspect that evolution or an old earth might actually be supported by the evidence. This creates a severe crisis of faith. They have been taught that if evolution or an old earth were true, then the atheists are right and the Bible can not be trusted and God did not create everything after all. I have seen this crisis in action. I have discussed this matter with those who either had abandoned Christianity or were about to because of this dogmatic teaching, and did my best to explain to them that the conflict was not inherent and that they could, indeed, accept evolution and not abandon Christianity. Most did not even know that there were Christians who accepted evolution, which shows how sheltered their lives had been.


The other group are non-Christians who come to associate Christianity with Young Earth Creationism. Those who do not know much about evolution and the age of the earth might be able to set aside any such beliefs and adopt a YEC belief and go on just fine. But most of those who really understand what the evidence says simply will not accept YEC teaching. So, if they are told that Christians, by definition, do not believe in evolution or an old earth and, instead, believe that the earth is less than 10,000 years old and that all the diversity of life was developed after a flood 4,000 years ago, this will be a major stumbling block to their acceptance of any Christian message. Thus Creationism becomes a barrier to the Cross for these non-Christians. More importantly, it becomes an unnecessary stumbling-block, since it is not an essential issue for Christian belief.


Here is Dr. Hugh Ross, a Christian Creationist (anti-evolution, but “old earth”), discussing this issue, it It is actually an introduction to a book called “A New Look at an Old Earth” by Don Stoner. I don’t agree with everything Hugh Ross believes, or everything included in the book, but what Ross writes here is very good. I added a couple of small notes in brackets which I think clarifies what he is saying:


“James, the brother of Jesus, in addressing the council at Jerusalem declared, “It is my judgement, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God (Acts 15:19).” The apostle Paul in his letter to the Romans said, “Make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother’s way (Romans 14:13).” Don Stoner challenges us in the following pages to remove a great impediment to the furtherance of the gospel of Jesus Christ.


Instead of focusing on the now overwhelming evidence for the God of the Bible and on the complete accuracy of His Word [Ross believes that the scientific evidence of an old universe actually provides strong support for God’s Creation], many within Christendom would have us discount this potent new evidence, all for the sake of clinging to the rather peripheral (to the Gospel) dogma of a recently-created universe.


This digression [into YEC’ism] has effectively inoculated a large segment of secular society against taking seriously the call to faith in Christ. It also has divided the Christian community into hostile camps that focus more energy on attacking each other than on reaching nonbelievers. . . .


As Mr. Stoner emphasizes, science is man’s attempt to interpret the facts of nature, while theology is man’s attempt to interpret the words of the Bible. God created the universe and also is responsible for the words of the Bible. Since He is incapable of lying or deceit, there can be no contradiction between the words of the Bible and the facts of nature. Any conflict between science and theology must be attributable to human misinterpretation. Such conflicts should be welcomed, not feared or battled, for they point the way to further research and study that could resolve the apparent discrepancies.
Historically such resolutions have not only born the fruit of bringing warring parties to peace and fellowship but also provided new tools for winning souls for Christ. It is in this spirit that this book is written, and it is in this spirit that I hope this book will be read.”


I agree with the sentiments here entirely. My motto tends to be “remember geocentrism”.
 

juvenissun

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In a communist country like China, they could write an essay with title The Danger of Christianity and have a argument mirror to your.

What you said may have some validity. But that is not the reason at all to negate Creationism. Every idea has some degrees of danger when looks from a particular point of view.
 
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Vance

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I do not argue that no one should believe in young earth creationism. Unlike creationists, I am not going to try to run their teaching out of any church or school. Unlike so many creationists, I am not going to call them "less Christians" with "weaker faith", etc.

While I happily debate the pros and cons of the positions with anyone, what I do argue vehemently for is that the creationists stop teaching and preaching this concept as if it is an "either/or" proposition, where IF evolution is true, THEN Scripture is false, without doubt, since this is unnecessarily damaging to the Gospel. They should teach what they believe as something that THEY believe to be true, but that not all Christians believe, and that each Christian should decide for themselves.
 
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vossler

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More and more people are being taught that an old earth/evolution and Christianity are wholly inconsistent and that if you believe one, you can not really believe the other. Such a blanket statement puts two very distinct groups in crisis and I am convinced that souls are being lost to the Kingdom as a result. This may sound a bit over-dramatic, but I have seen too many people distracted from the Gospel message by this issue.
Except for the "old earth" part, I completely agree.
 
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Vance

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Except for the "old earth" part, I completely agree.
I am glad you agree, but I am not sure what you mean by "except for the "old earth" part." But what is important is that you seem to agree that the dogmatic presentation by creationists that evolution is inconsistent with Christianity is very damaging to Christianity. Not very many YEC's will concede this point. Very honest of you.
 
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juvenissun

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I do not argue that no one should believe in young earth creationism. Unlike creationists, I am not going to try to run their teaching out of any church or school. Unlike so many creationists, I am not going to call them "less Christians" with "weaker faith", etc.

While I happily debate the pros and cons of the positions with anyone, what I do argue vehemently for is that the creationists stop teaching and preaching this concept as if it is an "either/or" proposition, where IF evolution is true, THEN Scripture is false, without doubt, since this is unnecessarily damaging to the Gospel. They should teach what they believe as something that THEY believe to be true, but that not all Christians believe, and that each Christian should decide for themselves.
I am sort of agree with some of what you said.

However, I should say that those creationists who preached creationism to the general public do NOT aim the argument against TE. They are arguing against atheist, since almost 100% of them believed in evolution (may be an overstatement, but hope you know what I mean). So I do not know how detrimental are they to the Christian community. But I think they do help to save many more unbelievers who are not interested in, or do not know much science.

So, active creationist could do some harms as you described. But they also give help to much more Christians to strengthen their faith against atheist.
 
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vossler

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I am glad you agree, but I am not sure what you mean by "except for the "old earth" part." But what is important is that you seem to agree that the dogmatic presentation by creationists that evolution is inconsistent with Christianity is very damaging to Christianity. Not very many YEC's will concede this point. Very honest of you.
What I meant by the "old earth" part is that if it were removed from the statement I quoted I would agree with it. As for the rest of your post I haven't a clue how you came up with that assessment. :scratch:
 
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juvenissun

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I am glad you agree, but I am not sure what you mean by "except for the "old earth" part." But what is important is that you seem to agree that the dogmatic presentation by creationists that evolution is inconsistent with Christianity is very damaging to Christianity. Not very many YEC's will concede this point. Very honest of you.
I still think TE is an extreme minority in the Christian community (that is why they flock into this forum). It seems somebody has argued the opposite. But somehow I am unimpressed by the argument. Oh, it is you who gave many church statements which tolerate evolution. But I don't think it can translate to the actual amount of Christian individuals who hold the same stand. Data of a general survey would be more convincing.
 
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Scotishfury09

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I still think TE is an extreme minority in the Christian community (that is why they flock into this forum). It seems somebody has argued the opposite. But somehow I am unimpressed by the argument. Oh, it is you who gave many church statements which tolerate evolution. But I don't think it can translate to the actual amount of Christian individuals who hold the same stand. Data of a general survey would be more convincing.

Absolutely not. TE might be a minority in southern U.S. but not globally.
 
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Molal

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Absolutely not. TE might be a minority in southern U.S. but not globally.
Agreed - based on my understanding TE maybe a minority in the US, but it is the majority globally.

I wonder if this correlates with biblical literalism? A literal interpretation is prevalent here in the US, but within the minority globally?

Good posts Vance - thank you.
 
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Vance

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Yes, Molal, that is where the problem lies, I think. It is primarily here in the US that the fundamentalist literalism is becoming more and more dominant. Even here, an acceptance of evolution is strong among a large minority (less vocal than the fundamentalist majority), but worldwide such fundamentalism is very rare.

Juvi, I would LOVE for the creationists to focus their argument on atheism and an atheistic teaching of evolution, but they don't do this! They equate evolution with atheism on a one-to-one ratio, rather than argue against the philosophical naturalism of atheism. So, they attack evolution itself, not just the atheistic variety of it (which is actually only rarely presented by scientists other than folks like Dawkins). By not acknowledging that there are millions of Christians who accept evolution, and that it is atheism that is the problem, they can create much more damage than good.
 
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Azeke

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[
quote=Vance;43859756]Yes, Molal, that is where the problem lies, I think. It is primarily here in the US that the fundamentalist literalism is becoming more and more dominant. Even here, an acceptance of evolution is strong among a large minority (less vocal than the fundamentalist majority), but worldwide such fundamentalism is very rare.

Juvi, I would LOVE for the creationists to focus their argument on atheism and an atheistic teaching of evolution, but they don't do this! They equate evolution with atheism on a one-to-one ratio, rather than argue against the philosophical naturalism of atheism. So, they attack evolution itself, not just the atheistic variety of it (which is actually only rarely presented by scientists other than folks like Dawkins). By not acknowledging that there are millions of Christians who accept evolution, and that it is atheism that is the problem, they can create much more damage than good.
[/quote]

Old earth doesn't save evolution.
If millions do accept evolution their becoming part of the deception! the missing link is still missing the proof for it is only in the minds of men.
The earth is waxing old like a garment not regenerating, Evolution=reincarnation they go hand in hand with each other before the trail ends.

Azeke.
 
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Molal

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[
Old earth doesn't save evolution.
If millions do accept evolution their becoming part of the deception! the missing link is still missing the proof for it is only in the minds of men.
The earth is waxing old like a garment not regenerating, Evolution=reincarnation they go hand in hand with each other before the trail ends.

Azeke.
Forgive me, but your diatribe is difficult to understand.

Can you clarify?
 
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anonymous1515

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Yes, Molal, that is where the problem lies, I think. It is primarily here in the US that the fundamentalist literalism is becoming more and more dominant. Even here, an acceptance of evolution is strong among a large minority (less vocal than the fundamentalist majority), but worldwide such fundamentalism is very rare.

Juvi, I would LOVE for the creationists to focus their argument on atheism and an atheistic teaching of evolution, but they don't do this! They equate evolution with atheism on a one-to-one ratio, rather than argue against the philosophical naturalism of atheism. So, they attack evolution itself, not just the atheistic variety of it (which is actually only rarely presented by scientists other than folks like Dawkins). By not acknowledging that there are millions of Christians who accept evolution, and that it is atheism that is the problem, they can create much more damage than good.
Hmm, maybe you could clarify for me. My understanding of evolutionary theory is that it is neither atheistic nor theistic. The term "atheistic" evolution confuses me, for it seems to imply that "theistic" evolution means that God is directly interfering with the evolution process.
 
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Vance

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Hmm, maybe you could clarify for me. My understanding of evolutionary theory is that it is neither atheistic nor theistic. The term "atheistic" evolution confuses me, for it seems to imply that "theistic" evolution means that God is directly interfering with the evolution process.
That is a very good point, there really is no such thing as "atheistic evolution" in scientific terms. I only use it in the sense that creationists tend to equate evolution with atheism often because there have been some atheists who try to argue their philosophical naturalism (atheism) using evolution as a supporting argument. As I mentioned above, this is rare, but it has happened just often enough for creationists to quote-mine it to death. Creationists need to go after atheism itself, and the philosophical naturalism that underlies it.

And "theistic evolution" can only be useful to acknowledge the fact that not all of those who accept evolution are also atheists (as the creationists often portray it). Scientifically, it is not necessary, any more than saying you are a "theistic photosynthesist" just because you believe God is ultimately the "author" and creator of the process of photosynthesis.

But, to complicate matters, there are many who fully accept that evolution, largely as described by modern biology, has occurred but that God was either necessary for the process (because they think it can't work entirely naturally, such as the ID folks like Behe), or that God CHOSE to intervene in the process at given times for some reason. These would still be generally labeled theistic evolutionists even though they don't think that evolution is an entirely natural process.

Personally, I think God is entirely capable of developing an evolutionary process that does not require His constant tinkering and nudging to effectively accomplish His purpose. While I think it likely that the development of the soul may have been an immediate intervening act at some point along the way, I am not at all averse to the idea that even this was something that God "embedded" in the process to arise at the time He knew it would.
 
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