The current problem with the Christian Church

[HannahBanana]

Why is murder wrong? It isn't because of logic, it is because we value human life.
Why do we have speed limits? Again, not because of logic, but because someone valued the safety of people, and some people valued the Earth and considered the pollution issue.

Logic is a thought process. We beleive that human life has value, so we use logic to determine the best way to protect human life and punish those who go against the moral value of life, which gives way to a law.

Logic is the tool used to take a moral ideal and find a practical application of the ideal.

Who says that murder isn't wrong because, logically, it hurts other people? Do you have any proof that the laws against murder in this country are based on ethics?

 

[mont974x4]

How can you say murder hurts anyone without a moral, or ethical, value on the issue?

 

[Beanieboy]

I am not making excuses, I am acknowledging that no one is perfect. I cannot even try to change anyone else. I can only offer my beliefs and perspective. I myself cannot wage a holy war to try and change the church, most people wouldnt listen anyway.

I don't understand the bolded part.
Didn't Jesus stand up against the Pharisees, and defend those that they claimed they were holier than? Didn't he defend the woman that was about to be stoned, when he could have cast the first stone, but didn't?

If people in the church won't listen to you, how can you ever expect anyone outside the church to listen?

Am I misunderstanding your post?

 

[imluvd]

Some people seem to forget our founding fathers where christian and based our constitution and laws on christian principals! If you don't like christians you can always move to another country that isn't based on christian beliefs.

 

[Beanieboy]

I would like to thank those who have offered insight and humble opinion. I realized today that it could be an opportunity to take out frustration to blatant attacks, and that was never the intent.

 

[Beanieboy]

Some people seem to forget our founding fathers where christian and based our constitution and laws on christian principals! If you don't like christians you can always move to another country that is based on christian beliefs.

Perhaps you have forgotten that one of the important Freedoms written on the Constitution is the Freedom of Religion, and that Congress shall neither prevent nor endorse any religion.

Seeing that the 1st Commandment clearly states that one should have no other gods before God, how can that possibly be taken as Christian?

 

[keith99]

Some people seem to forget our founding fathers where christian and based our constitution and laws on christian principals! If you don't like christians you can always move to another country that is based on christian beliefs.

Actually most people on this board seem to have learned that our founding fathers were not just Christians, they represented many faiths, or none at all. The largest single identifyable affiliation is likely beinbg a Mason.

Look up Jefferson and Franklin for 2. I'm sure others here can add to the rather long list of founding fathers whose Christianity is doubtful.

 

[Markus6]

The largest single identifyable affiliation is likely beinbg a Mason.

Though that doesn't have anything to do with their religion except guaranteeing they are theist.

 

[imluvd]

Perhaps you have forgotten that one of the important Freedoms written on the Constitution is the Freedom of Religion, and that Congress shall neither prevent nor endorse any religion.

Seeing that the 1st Commandment clearly states that one should have no other gods before God, how can that possibly be taken as Christian?

You have to remember they were getting away from the church of England and it's rules. They didn't want to force people to believe in God they way that they were told to believe. But like I have said in previous posts, God didn't change the laws, man did. Do I think God is happy that people believe in any god but Him? I really don't think so. These men did what they thought was best because of the oppression they felt at home, they wanted a better place for people here and that is why people flocked here then and continue to come here. But who is to say that if they could see what the New World has become now, would they say they did the right thing? Don't know, but considering they were christian I would have to wonder a little. Everybody has the freedom to do whatever they want, but is that always a good thing? I am not saying everyone should be christian that is their choice, regardless. But why be mad that a christian nation is trying to keep their christian beliefs intact?

 

[Markus6]

You have to remember they were getting away from the church of England and it's rules. They didn't want to force people to believe in God they way that they were told to believe. But like I have said in previous posts, God didn't change the laws, man did. Do I think God is happy that people believe in any god but Him? I really don't think so. These men did what they thought was best because of the oppression they felt at home, they wanted a better place for people here and that is why people flocked here then and continue to come here. But who is to say that if they could see what the New World has become now, would they say they did the right thing? Don't know, but considering they were christian I would have to wonder a little. Everybody has the freedom to do whatever they want, but is that always a good thing? I am not saying everyone should be christian that is their choice, regardless. But why be mad that a christian nation is trying to keep their christian beliefs intact?

Having established that the country was founded by people who wanted there to be freedom of religion because of the oppression in a country where religion was established how exactly is the US a Christian nation? Are Jews, Atheists or Muslims somehow lesser citizens?

 

[broken_one]

Some people seem to forget our founding fathers where christian and based our constitution and laws on christian principals! If you don't like christians you can always move to another country that isn't based on christian beliefs.

Okay,

-Firstly, the founding fathers were only deists at best. They were mainly Masons, as has previously been said.

-Secondly, the ideals that founded America were not christian per se, but rather those of the enlightenment (John Locke, Thomas Hobbes, Jean Jacques Rousseau etc.). As a matter of fact, Rousseau, a major philosopher who had considerable influence on the framers, was the closest thing to an atheist in 18th Century society. So really our country was based on human reason, not christianity.

 

[keith99]

Though that doesn't have anything to do with their religion except guaranteeing they are theist.

Actually I was going in the other direction with this. Many claim one may not be a Mason and Christian.

I agree with your point. Mason means theist, which can include Christians. Rather like our founding fathers (many of whom were Masons).

 

[Anglian]

The founder of the Christian Faith was born to a lowly Jewish maiden who was later accused of having a baby out of wedlock, and whose betrothed almost put her away.

His ministry lasted barely three years and led to His being accused of being a winebibber and a glutton. He was criticised for consorting with harlots and tax-collectors. He was crucified by the religious Establishment of His day for being a danger to them.

When asked to condone the Law which allowed a woman taken in adultery to be stoned, He neither condemned her nor the Law, neither did He say what she ha done was OK; He simply asked those without sin to cast the first stone, and told her to sin no more. We might do well to do as He did.

Let us not judge except with the mercy we hope will be shown to us' let us not hate, who have seen our own sin be rewarded with His love which we have done nothing to deserve. If we are tempted to feel self-righteous, let us remember that there is not one who is righteous.

We are told that in extreme old age, St. John would be carried into Church, and would be surrounded by those anxious to hear worlds of wisdom from one who had been beloved by the Lord. We are told, too, that many went away sadly when all they heard was: 'Little children, love one another.' How often are we like those people who did not realise that they had just heard the message that is at the centre of the Gospel?

That may be what is wrong. As St. Isaac told us:

'The true vision of Jesus Christ Our Lord consists in our realising the meaning of His incarnation for our sakes, and becoming inebriated with love of Him as a result of the insights into the many wondrous elements contained in that vision.'

Peace be on this place,

Anglian

 

[SamanthaB]

I don't understand the bolded part.
Didn't Jesus stand up against the Pharisees, and defend those that they claimed they were holier than? Didn't he defend the woman that was about to be stoned, when he could have cast the first stone, but didn't?

If people in the church won't listen to you, how can you ever expect anyone outside the church to listen?

Am I misunderstanding your post?

I guess what I should have said (what I thought about later) was that I have enough problems myself right now that I do not have the time, desire, nor the mental capacity to invoke change in a 2000 year old institution that historically does not like change. Does it need it? Yes. Can someone do it? Yes. I am just not that person, not right now anyway.
All I can do is all I can do, which right now is, like I said earlier, offer my perspective and live by it.

Does that make sense?

 

[Beanieboy]

You have to remember they were getting away from the church of England and it's rules. They didn't want to force people to believe in God they way that they were told to believe. But like I have said in previous posts, God didn't change the laws, man did. Do I think God is happy that people believe in any god but Him? I really don't think so. These men did what they thought was best because of the oppression they felt at home, they wanted a better place for people here and that is why people flocked here then and continue to come here. But who is to say that if they could see what the New World has become now, would they say they did the right thing? Don't know, but considering they were christian I would have to wonder a little. Everybody has the freedom to do whatever they want, but is that always a good thing? I am not saying everyone should be christian that is their choice, regardless. But why be mad that a christian nation is trying to keep their christian beliefs intact?

Christian beliefs should remain intact. It's part of the Freedom of Relgion.

You are stating that this was founded as a Christian Nation, which is simply false.

 

[Beanieboy]

I guess what I should have said (what I thought about later) was that I have enough problems myself right now that I do not have the time, desire, nor the mental capacity to invoke change in a 2000 year old institution that historically does not like change. Does it need it? Yes. Can someone do it? Yes. I am just not that person, not right now anyway.
All I can do is all I can do, which right now is, like I said earlier, offer my perspective and live by it.

Does that make sense?

Gandhi said: Be the change you want to see in the world.
That's all that was ever expected.

 

[Anglian]

If He can love and forgive me ...

should be pretty easy when you remember that. Perhaps we don't - as often as we should.

Peace,

Anglian

 

[Beanieboy]

If He can love and forgive me ...

should be pretty easy when you remember that. Perhaps we don't - as often as we should.

Peace,

Anglian

Agreed. Do you believe that if Jesus were to return, that he would approve of the direction and actions of the church today?

I often suspect that he would be the same heretic that he was in his own time, and probably rejected by a number of churches, maybe even accused of handholding people to hell.

 

[HannahBanana]

You have to remember they were getting away from the church of England and it's rules. They didn't want to force people to believe in God they way that they were told to believe. But like I have said in previous posts, God didn't change the laws, man did. Do I think God is happy that people believe in any god but Him? I really don't think so. These men did what they thought was best because of the oppression they felt at home, they wanted a better place for people here and that is why people flocked here then and continue to come here. But who is to say that if they could see what the New World has become now, would they say they did the right thing? Don't know, but considering they were christian I would have to wonder a little. Everybody has the freedom to do whatever they want, but is that always a good thing? I am not saying everyone should be christian that is their choice, regardless. But why be mad that a christian nation is trying to keep their christian beliefs intact?

First of all, Article 11 from the Treaty of Tripoli proves that the US is not a Christian nation:

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

Second of all, since when is freedom a bad thing?

 

[HannahBanana]

If He can love and forgive me ...

should be pretty easy when you remember that. Perhaps we don't - as often as we should.

Peace,

Anglian

Amen! There's definitely too little love and forgiveness in this world, which is quite saddening.