The Crucifixion Not Friday

[Saber Truth Tiger]

AFRAZIER wrote:

Okay, I went and read those two posts. Let me say for you up front . . . I'm a man of facts. If you say something and expect me to believe it, you need to show proof. Cite the source.

SABER TRUTH TIGER responded as follows:

You’re a man of facts, and need to be shown proof that the Sabbath according to Moses was the weekly Sabbath and not the day that follows Nisan 15? Or, you want proof that Nisan 15 was NOT a Sabbath? Where is YOUR proof that Nisan 15 was a Sabbath when Jesus walked the earth? The Hebrew Scriptures are the proof I seek and if something disagrees with the Hebrew Scriptures I am not inclined to believe it.

Where is your proof that Nisan 15 was a Sabbath when Jesus walked the earth? The Scriptures are plain that the waving of the Omer was the day AFTER the weekly Sabbath. Nisan 15 became a Sabbath sometime after the writing of the bulk of Hebrew Scriptures and before the writing of the Septuagint. There is no one sure exactly when that happened but it seems probable during the Babylonian Captivity. When Israel went into the Babylonian captivity they celebrated Aviv 15 as the first day of Unleavened Bread. During the Captivity, they changed the name of the first month to the Babylonian Nisan. Also, according to Clement de Blois, in The Etymology of the Sabbath, the Babylonians observed Nisan 15 as a Sabbath, calling it sabatu. Since the Jews already revered Aviv 15 as a high day, it was no big matter to adopt Nisan 15 as a Sabbath. It cannot be proven but it seems likely. There was no other viable reason to change the waving of the Omer. I want you, a man of facts, show me proof that Nisan 15 was a Sabbath when the Hebrew Scriptures were written. The Old Testament is my source and evidence that the waving of the Omer was the day after the weekly Sabbath and not the first day of Unleavened Bread. I’ll need proof that Nisan 15 was a Sabbath when Jesus was alive.

AFRAZIER writes the following:

And I prefer primary source material.

SABER TRUTH TIGER responds:

Are the Hebrew Scriptures primary source material for you? I prefer primary source material as well when it comes to claiming Nisan 15 was a Sabbath when the Sadducees ruled the roost and when Jesus was alive. Without such proof, I believe the default for the waving of the Omer falls on the day after the weekly Sabbath.

AFRAZIER wrote:

I will change my perspective on something if you prove it to me. But, presently, I have facts that say the 16th is the bringing of the omer and the beginning of the count to Pentecost.

SABER TRUTH TIGER responds:

What and When are your “facts” that say the 16th is the bringing of the Omer and the beginning of the count to Pentecost? What evidence do you have that those rules existed when Jesus walked the earth?

AFRAZIER writes:

If you're going to convince me otherwise, you'll have to prove it with more than arguments and interpretations.

SABER TRUTH TIGER answers:

Likewise, if you are going to convince me otherwise, you’ll have to prove it more than arguments and interpretations from scholars who are descended from the Pharisees. Of course, anyone descended from the Pharisee tradition is going to believe like them and teach the same thing they believed in.

AFRAZIER writes:
1) You did not show proof of any change in the religious practice established in the pre-Hasmonean period concerning the fixed date for the count to Pentecost. I know you think you did, but none of what you posted or cited says any such thing.

SABER TRUTH TIGER responds:

You have not shown primary evidence for your claim that Nisan 15 was a Sabbath from the time of Moses to the present day. That comes much later, exactly when, I don’t know but I presume it was during the Babylonian Captivity. When the LXX was first written, only the first five books (Pentecost) were translated. It was about the late third century BCE and in there is the first time we see evidence that Nisan 15 could be reckoned as a Sabbath. There was a controversy between the Sadducees and Pharisees in the second century BCE over which day was the waving of the Omer. There is no evidence that Nisan 15 supplanted the weekly Sabbath at that time.

AFRAZIER writes:

Even if the Saducees were in charge during Jesus' day, you haven't provided any source evidence that they changed the practice that had been in use for hundreds of years at that point.

SABER TRUTH TIGER replies:

Where is your evidence that the Nisan 15 Sabbath was a practice that had been in use for hundreds (?) of years at the time Jesus walked the earth? I need to see evidence, and not just a quote from an adherent of that belief system but evidence that supplements the claims you are producing. I offer as evidence of the weekly Sabbath being the day before the waving of the Omer in the Hebrew Scriptures, a primary source at that. Show me your evidence from the Hebrew Scriptures that Nisan 15 was a Sabbath and that Nisan 16 was the waving of the Omer. That is a primary source, which trumps a source that follows years later and is different from the primary souce.

AFRAZIER writes:

2) You cite bTa'an 17b, but that doesn't prove what you're saying. The Scholiast to the Megallit Ta'anit on 1b says it commemorates the victory of the Pharisees over the Saduccees in the debate. bTa'an 17b says the same thing. And bMenah. 65a–66a reiterates the same argument, and then expounds upon it significantly to show that the day after the festival is the day for bringing the omer and beginning the count of weeks.

SABER TRUTH TIGER responds:
I have quoted the bMenah 65a to 66a in length on page 10, posts #181 to #185, and refuted their claims. See page 10 on this thread, beginning at the top. This article was written sometime during the sixth century CE and was far removed from the time of Jesus. By then, the Nisan 15 Sabbath had been celebrated as a Sabbath for six centuries. Don’t overlook the above texts claim that there was a time when the “proper” celebration of Nisan 15 was restored. By “proper” the Pharisees mean Nisan 15. Since the Nisan 15 Sabbath was “restored” that means there was a time when it wasn’t practiced. And that was when Jesus walked the earth. Just do some internet research to see the Sadducees controlled Temple worship when Jesus was alive. It wasn’t until after ben Zakkai became the Nasi of the Sanhedrin that the change was made, and then the Sadducees had to follow Pharisean interpretation right up until the destruction of the Temple. After that, they vanished from the scene. Josephus and Philo, both Pharisees and inclined toward the Pharisean interpretation, both claim the Sadducees meekly followed the Pharisees as the Pharisees observed the Nisan 16 waving of the Omer. But it was in the latter half of the first century CE.

AFRAZIER writes:
In post #81 you also stated, "Nisan 15 was a non-Sabbath holy convocation until the Jews went into Babylonian captivity and for seventy years, they were in Babylon they observed their Nisan 15 as a Sabbath because Nisan 15 was a Sabbath to the Babylonians."

SABER TRUTH TIGER answers:

I overstated my case. I believe it was sometime during that 70 years of servitude that the Jews began to call Nisan 15 a Sabbath. The first big change was changing the name of the first month from Aviv to Nisan. Aviv 15 was an annual holiday and it is likely when they changed the calendar from Aviv to Nisan they may have likewise kept the date as a Sabbath. But it is only conjecture and it is unlikely 100% of the Jews would change celebrating the observance of a non-Sabbath holiday to a day equal to the weekly Sabbath. There were many Jews who did not go into captivity but remained behind in Israel and it is unlikely they would have changed the annual high day to a Sabbath. There was much disagreement between those that became the Pharisees and Sadducees about which day should be the day of the Omer but history records that the Sadducees controlled the Temple worship until late in the first century CE.

AFRAZIER writes:
I research and study Assyrian and Babylonian history and calendrics. I know of no such practice. If you have proof of this in Babylonian culture, please provide it. And to say so, if the Jews began this practice during the Babylonian captivity, which can't be proved, it is not relevant to the practices of the first century CE, which practiced the count to Pentecost as already discussed.

SABER TRUTH TIGER responds:

Where is your evidence that Nisan 15 was a Sabbath in the first century that practiced the count to Pentecost the way the Pharisees did UNTIL Rabbi Yohannan ben Zakkai became Nasi of the Sanhedrin?

I like facts too. What are your facts that place the waving of the Omer on Nisan 16 when Jesus was alive? I need facts, not assertions or opinions. Facts. It is possible I may be wrong about WHEN the Jews first began celebrating Nisan 15 as a Sabbath but I see it as a possibility. I will on record say that I could be wrong about WHEN it happened but I believe it is likely (to me at least) that is when Nisan 15 first became known as a Sabbath by some Jews. Where is your evidence Nisan 16 was the day the waving of the Omer before the Babylonian Captivity?

Sadducees controlled Temple worship in first century CE,

Google Search

 

[AFrazier]

AFRAZIER wrote:

Okay, I went and read those two posts. Let me say for you up front . . . I'm a man of facts. If you say something and expect me to believe it, you need to show proof. Cite the source.

SABER TRUTH TIGER responded as follows:

You’re a man of facts, and need to be shown proof that the Sabbath according to Moses was the weekly Sabbath and not the day that follows Nisan 15? Or, you want proof that Nisan 15 was NOT a Sabbath? Where is YOUR proof that Nisan 15 was a Sabbath when Jesus walked the earth? The Hebrew Scriptures are the proof I seek and if something disagrees with the Hebrew Scriptures I am not inclined to believe it.

Where is your proof that Nisan 15 was a Sabbath when Jesus walked the earth? The Scriptures are plain that the waving of the Omer was the day AFTER the weekly Sabbath. Nisan 15 became a Sabbath sometime after the writing of the bulk of Hebrew Scriptures and before the writing of the Septuagint. There is no one sure exactly when that happened but it seems probable during the Babylonian Captivity. When Israel went into the Babylonian captivity they celebrated Aviv 15 as the first day of Unleavened Bread. During the Captivity, they changed the name of the first month to the Babylonian Nisan. Also, according to Clement de Blois, in The Etymology of the Sabbath, the Babylonians observed Nisan 15 as a Sabbath, calling it sabatu. Since the Jews already revered Aviv 15 as a high day, it was no big matter to adopt Nisan 15 as a Sabbath. It cannot be proven but it seems likely. There was no other viable reason to change the waving of the Omer. I want you, a man of facts, show me proof that Nisan 15 was a Sabbath when the Hebrew Scriptures were written. The Old Testament is my source and evidence that the waving of the Omer was the day after the weekly Sabbath and not the first day of Unleavened Bread. I’ll need proof that Nisan 15 was a Sabbath when Jesus was alive.

AFRAZIER writes the following:

And I prefer primary source material.

SABER TRUTH TIGER responds:

Are the Hebrew Scriptures primary source material for you? I prefer primary source material as well when it comes to claiming Nisan 15 was a Sabbath when the Sadducees ruled the roost and when Jesus was alive. Without such proof, I believe the default for the waving of the Omer falls on the day after the weekly Sabbath.

AFRAZIER wrote:

I will change my perspective on something if you prove it to me. But, presently, I have facts that say the 16th is the bringing of the omer and the beginning of the count to Pentecost.

SABER TRUTH TIGER responds:

What and When are your “facts” that say the 16th is the bringing of the Omer and the beginning of the count to Pentecost? What evidence do you have that those rules existed when Jesus walked the earth?

AFRAZIER writes:

If you're going to convince me otherwise, you'll have to prove it with more than arguments and interpretations.

SABER TRUTH TIGER answers:

Likewise, if you are going to convince me otherwise, you’ll have to prove it more than arguments and interpretations from scholars who are descended from the Pharisees. Of course, anyone descended from the Pharisee tradition is going to believe like them and teach the same thing they believed in.

AFRAZIER writes:
1) You did not show proof of any change in the religious practice established in the pre-Hasmonean period concerning the fixed date for the count to Pentecost. I know you think you did, but none of what you posted or cited says any such thing.

SABER TRUTH TIGER responds:

You have not shown primary evidence for your claim that Nisan 15 was a Sabbath from the time of Moses to the present day. That comes much later, exactly when, I don’t know but I presume it was during the Babylonian Captivity. When the LXX was first written, only the first five books (Pentecost) were translated. It was about the late third century BCE and in there is the first time we see evidence that Nisan 15 could be reckoned as a Sabbath. There was a controversy between the Sadducees and Pharisees in the second century BCE over which day was the waving of the Omer. There is no evidence that Nisan 15 supplanted the weekly Sabbath at that time.

AFRAZIER writes:

Even if the Saducees were in charge during Jesus' day, you haven't provided any source evidence that they changed the practice that had been in use for hundreds of years at that point.

SABER TRUTH TIGER replies:

Where is your evidence that the Nisan 15 Sabbath was a practice that had been in use for hundreds (?) of years at the time Jesus walked the earth? I need to see evidence, and not just a quote from an adherent of that belief system but evidence that supplements the claims you are producing. I offer as evidence of the weekly Sabbath being the day before the waving of the Omer in the Hebrew Scriptures, a primary source at that. Show me your evidence from the Hebrew Scriptures that Nisan 15 was a Sabbath and that Nisan 16 was the waving of the Omer. That is a primary source, which trumps a source that follows years later and is different from the primary souce.

AFRAZIER writes:

2) You cite bTa'an 17b, but that doesn't prove what you're saying. The Scholiast to the Megallit Ta'anit on 1b says it commemorates the victory of the Pharisees over the Saduccees in the debate. bTa'an 17b says the same thing. And bMenah. 65a–66a reiterates the same argument, and then expounds upon it significantly to show that the day after the festival is the day for bringing the omer and beginning the count of weeks.

SABER TRUTH TIGER responds:
I have quoted the bMenah 65a to 66a in length on page 10, posts #181 to #185, and refuted their claims. See page 10 on this thread, beginning at the top. This article was written sometime during the sixth century CE and was far removed from the time of Jesus. By then, the Nisan 15 Sabbath had been celebrated as a Sabbath for six centuries. Don’t overlook the above texts claim that there was a time when the “proper” celebration of Nisan 15 was restored. By “proper” the Pharisees mean Nisan 15. Since the Nisan 15 Sabbath was “restored” that means there was a time when it wasn’t practiced. And that was when Jesus walked the earth. Just do some internet research to see the Sadducees controlled Temple worship when Jesus was alive. It wasn’t until after ben Zakkai became the Nasi of the Sanhedrin that the change was made, and then the Sadducees had to follow Pharisean interpretation right up until the destruction of the Temple. After that, they vanished from the scene. Josephus and Philo, both Pharisees and inclined toward the Pharisean interpretation, both claim the Sadducees meekly followed the Pharisees as the Pharisees observed the Nisan 16 waving of the Omer. But it was in the latter half of the first century CE.

AFRAZIER writes:
In post #81 you also stated, "Nisan 15 was a non-Sabbath holy convocation until the Jews went into Babylonian captivity and for seventy years, they were in Babylon they observed their Nisan 15 as a Sabbath because Nisan 15 was a Sabbath to the Babylonians."

SABER TRUTH TIGER answers:

I overstated my case. I believe it was sometime during that 70 years of servitude that the Jews began to call Nisan 15 a Sabbath. The first big change was changing the name of the first month from Aviv to Nisan. Aviv 15 was an annual holiday and it is likely when they changed the calendar from Aviv to Nisan they may have likewise kept the date as a Sabbath. But it is only conjecture and it is unlikely 100% of the Jews would change celebrating the observance of a non-Sabbath holiday to a day equal to the weekly Sabbath. There were many Jews who did not go into captivity but remained behind in Israel and it is unlikely they would have changed the annual high day to a Sabbath. There was much disagreement between those that became the Pharisees and Sadducees about which day should be the day of the Omer but history records that the Sadducees controlled the Temple worship until late in the first century CE.

AFRAZIER writes:
I research and study Assyrian and Babylonian history and calendrics. I know of no such practice. If you have proof of this in Babylonian culture, please provide it. And to say so, if the Jews began this practice during the Babylonian captivity, which can't be proved, it is not relevant to the practices of the first century CE, which practiced the count to Pentecost as already discussed.

SABER TRUTH TIGER responds:

Where is your evidence that Nisan 15 was a Sabbath in the first century that practiced the count to Pentecost the way the Pharisees did UNTIL Rabbi Yohannan ben Zakkai became Nasi of the Sanhedrin?

I like facts too. What are your facts that place the waving of the Omer on Nisan 16 when Jesus was alive? I need facts, not assertions or opinions. Facts. It is possible I may be wrong about WHEN the Jews first began celebrating Nisan 15 as a Sabbath but I see it as a possibility. I will on record say that I could be wrong about WHEN it happened but I believe it is likely (to me at least) that is when Nisan 15 first became known as a Sabbath by some Jews. Where is your evidence Nisan 16 was the day the waving of the Omer before the Babylonian Captivity?

Sadducees controlled Temple worship in first century CE,

Google Search

Bossman, you're being childish at this point. Because your post in this instance was so childish, I didn't read past the first sentece of the second paragraph. I gave you the historical proof already. The count to Pentecost began on the "morrow after the Sabbath," and the historically fixed date for the beginning of the count to Pentecost according to a first century eye-witness was the 16th day of Nisan. That makes the 16th the "morrow after the Sabbath," which by default makes the 15th the Sabbath. That's the proof from a first century primary source. If that doesn't suffice for you and you believe your modern day interpretation of scripture has more authority than the actual, testified practice by someone who was actually there and participated in it, then feel free to believe whatever nonsense you choose. If you want to talk about objective facts and evidence, hit me up. If you just want to rant and get bent out of shape, I have no desire to argue with you.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Bossman, you're being childish at this point. Because your post in this instance was so childish, I didn't read past the first sentece of the second paragraph.

How do you know my post was childish if you didn't read past the first sentence of the second paragraph? Here is the section you claimed you read:

QUOTE by Saber Truth Tiger
You’re a man of facts, and need to be shown proof that the Sabbath according to Moses was the weekly Sabbath and not the day that follows Nisan 15? Or, you want proof that Nisan 15 was NOT a Sabbath? Where is YOUR proof that Nisan 15 was a Sabbath when Jesus walked the earth? The Hebrew Scriptures are the proof I seek and if something disagrees with the Hebrew Scriptures I am not inclined to believe it.

Where is your proof that Nisan 15 was a Sabbath when Jesus walked the earth?

UNQUOTE

So, based on that quote, where do you get the idea my post was childish?

I gave you the historical proof already. The count to Pentecost began on the "morrow after the Sabbath," and the historically fixed date for the beginning of the count to Pentecost according to a first century eye-witness was the 16th day of Nisan. That makes the 16th the "morrow after the Sabbath," which by default makes the 15th the Sabbath.

That's simply not true. None of your "proofs" establishes that Nisan 16 was the waving of the Omer to the Jews as a whole, just a subset of Judaism. The correct day of the waving of the Omer was Sunday during Passover week, according to the Sadducee reckoning. They got their reckoning from the Hebrew Scriptures. The Pharisees got their interpretation through the oral law and the LXX. They were wrong to wave the Omer every year on Nisan 16 and your sources that claim this happens are following a false tradition. Nisan 15 was not a Sabbath. You have provided no evidence for that. Not any that can withstand scrutiny.

That's the proof from a first century primary source.

It's from a first-century source but it doesn't prove Nisan 16 was the waving of the Omer when the Hebrews first left Egypt and then started their calendar. It doesn't prove that Nisan 16 was the waving of the Omer when Jesus was alive.

If that doesn't suffice for you and you believe your modern day interpretation of scripture has more authority than the actual, testified practice by someone who was actually there and participated in it,

Don't you see? Those that were there practicing the Nisan 16 Omer were doing it erroneously. All your sources were tied in with the Pharisees and their reckoning. The Sadducees had it right. Those who waved the Omer on Sunday had it right.

then feel free to believe whatever nonsense you choose. If you want to talk about objective facts and evidence, hit me up. If you just want to rant and get bent out of shape, I have no desire to argue with you.

You claim I ranted and had a childish post, and dismissed all I wrote, and all you read was up to the first sentence of the second paragraph of my post. Go figure.

 

[AFrazier]

How do you know my post was childish if you didn't read past the first sentence of the second paragraph? Here is the section you claimed you read:

QUOTE by Saber Truth Tiger
You’re a man of facts, and need to be shown proof that the Sabbath according to Moses was the weekly Sabbath and not the day that follows Nisan 15? Or, you want proof that Nisan 15 was NOT a Sabbath? Where is YOUR proof that Nisan 15 was a Sabbath when Jesus walked the earth? The Hebrew Scriptures are the proof I seek and if something disagrees with the Hebrew Scriptures I am not inclined to believe it.

Where is your proof that Nisan 15 was a Sabbath when Jesus walked the earth?

UNQUOTE

So, based on that quote, where do you get the idea my post was childish?

That's simply not true. None of your "proofs" establishes that Nisan 16 was the waving of the Omer to the Jews as a whole, just a subset of Judaism. The correct day of the waving of the Omer was Sunday during Passover week, according to the Sadducee reckoning. They got their reckoning from the Hebrew Scriptures. The Pharisees got their interpretation through the oral law and the LXX. They were wrong to wave the Omer every year on Nisan 16 and your sources that claim this happens are following a false tradition. Nisan 15 was not a Sabbath. You have provided no evidence for that. Not any that can withstand scrutiny.

It's from a first-century source but it doesn't prove Nisan 16 was the waving of the Omer when the Hebrews first left Egypt and then started their calendar. It doesn't prove that Nisan 16 was the waving of the Omer when Jesus was alive.

Don't you see? Those that were there practicing the Nisan 16 Omer were doing it erroneously. All your sources were tied in with the Pharisees and their reckoning. The Sadducees had it right. Those who waved the Omer on Sunday had it right.

You claim I ranted and had a childish post, and dismissed all I wrote, and all you read was up to the first sentence of the second paragraph of my post. Go figure.

Here's the thing . . . I've been on this site far too long. I've seen the likes of you more times than I care to count. It's like talking to a wall. You give proof, and people like you act as though I did not. I'm just not going to argue with you bud. You're making claims without proof, and dismissing facts for which proof has been given. Josephus didn't say, "for us Pharisees, we count from the 16th, but it was different when the Saduccees were in charge." He says that the second day of the Feast of Unleavened bread, on the 16th, the omer is brought, and they begin counting to Pentecost. "They" is the Jews. Not one sect or another. This is the testimony of a first century priest who was personally familiar with, and was a practitioner of, the way things were done in the first century.

If you have proof to the contrary, then provide it. Apart from that, there's nothing more to say. I'm right until you demonstrate otherwise with credible evidence.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Here's the thing . . . I've been on this site far too long. I've seen the likes of you more times than I care to count. It's like talking to a wall. You give proof, and people like you act as though I did not. I'm just not going to argue with you bud. You're making claims without proof, and dismissing facts for which proof has been given. Josephus didn't say, "for us Pharisees, we count from the 16th, but it was different when the Saduccees were in charge." He says that the second day of the Feast of Unleavened bread, on the 16th, the omer is brought, and they begin counting to Pentecost. "They" is the Jews. Not one sect or another. This is the testimony of a first century priest who was personally familiar with, and was a practitioner of, the way things were done in the first century.

If you have proof to the contrary, then provide it. Apart from that, there's nothing more to say. I'm right until you demonstrate otherwise with credible evidence.

AFRAZIER writes:
Here's the thing . . . I've been on this site far too long. I've seen the likes of you more times than I care to count.

SABER TRUTH TIGER replies:
You didn’t even read my post. You read only the first paragraph. So, how do you come up with “I’ve seen the likes of you more times than I care to count”?

AFRAZIER writes:
It's like talking to a wall.

SABER TRUTH TIGER replies:
Pot calling the kettle black. Talking to you is like talking to a wall.

AFRAZIER writes:
You give proof, and people like you act as though I did not.

SABER TRUTH TIGER responds:
You gave no proof, you quoted from a Pharisee scholar to prove the Pharisee reckoning was correct. I quoted from the Hebrew Scriptures to prove the waving of the Omer was the day after the weekly Sabbath. What you did was NOT proof. It’s using a Pharisee to prove the Pharisees are correct. No surprise there. Who has the best evidence, the Hebrew Scriptures or Josephus? Is Leviticus a primary source on things pertaining to the Omer? Which carries more weight with you? Leviticus 23 or Josephus and an incorrect way to count the Omer? Show me in the Bible where Nisan 15, a day for a holy convocation, was called a Sabbath.

AFRAZIER
I'm just not going to argue with you bud. You're making claims without proof, and dismissing facts for which proof has been given.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
I provided proof from Leviticus 23 in the Hebrew Scriptures. The waving of the Omer was correctly done on the day AFTER the weekly Sabbath. I have dismissed your quote from Josephus because it is circular reasoning to use a Pharisee scholar to prove the Pharisee reckoning was correct. I simply use God’s Word to prove the waving of the Omer occurred on the day after the weekly Sabbath.

AFRAZIER
Josephus didn't say, "for us Pharisees, we count from the 16th, but it was different when the Saduccees were in charge." He says that the second day of the Feast of Unleavened bread, on the 16th, the omer is brought, and they begin couhtng to Pentecost.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Yes, a Pharisee scholar claims the Pharisean method is correct. No surprise there. But that doesn’t prove Nisan 16 was the right day to wave the Omer. When Jesus was alive, the waving of the Omer followed the weekly Sabbath of Passover. Josephus is the wrong proof to determine which day is biblically the day of the waving of the Omer.

AFRAZIER
"They" is the Jews. Not one sect or another. This is the testimony of a first century priest who was personally familiar with, and was a practitioner of, the way things were done in the first century.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
“They” does not refer to ALL Jews. Some Jews do not accept the Pharisean reckoning. There were Jews who held to the Sadducean method, Some still do today (the Karaites, for example). There were different sects then, the Sadducees and the Essenes for two.

AFRAZIER
Here's the thing . . . I've been on this site far too long. I've seen the likes of you more times than I care to count. It's like talking to a wall.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
The truth is a wall for you. You cannot see the truth because there is a wall before you and the truth.

AFRAZIER
You give proof, and people like you act as though I did not. I'm just not going to argue with you bud.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Good, then don’t.

AFRAZIER
You're making claims without proof, and dismissing facts for which proof has been given. Josephus didn't say, "for us Pharisees, we count from the 16th, but it was different when the Saduccees were in charge." He says that the second day of the Feast of Unleavened bread, on the 16th, the omer is brought, and they begin counting to Pentecost.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
Josephus was not in accord with Leviticus 23, he and the Jews who blindly followed the Pharisee method of reckoning. You need to realize that the Pharisee reckoning contradicts Leviticus 23:1-15.

AFRAZIER
"They" is the Jews. Not one sect or another. This is the testimony of a first century priest who was personally familiar with, and was a practitioner of, the way things were done in the first century.

If you have proof to the contrary, then provide it. Apart from that, there's nothing more to say. I'm right until you demonstrate otherwise with credible evidence.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
“They” does not refer to ALL Jews. Some Jews do not accept the Pharisean reckoning. There were Jews who held to the Sadducean method, Some still do today (the Karaites, for example). There were different sects then, the Sadducees and the Essenes for two.

AFRAZIER
If you have proof to the contrary, then provide it. Apart from that, there's nothing more to say. I'm right until you demonstrate otherwise with credible evidence.

SABER TRUTH TIGER
I have provided ample proof from the Hebrew Scriptures. If you still don’t want to debate this with me, then don’t. But you imagine in your own mind you have provided proof that the Pharisee method was correct. Please provide your evidence that Nisan 16 was the day of the Omer when Jesus was alive. I am right until you refute my claims about the timing of the waving of the Omer.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Turns out the Jews did not get Nisan 15 Sabbath from the Babylonians. Here is artificial intelligence on the subject from Google.

AI Overview

No, Nisan 15, the first day of Passover, was not a Sabbath in Babylon. While the Babylonians did have their own system of rest days and holy days, which included the 7th, 14th, 21st, and 28th days of the lunar month, Nisan 15 was not one of them.

The practice of observing Nisan 15 as a Sabbath, distinct from the weekly Sabbath, is a Jewish tradition that developed after the Babylonian exile. In the Bible, Leviticus 23:11 and 23:15 refer to the "morrow after the Sabbath" (the weekly Sabbath) as the day of the Feast of First Fruits, which is now understood to be the 16th of Nisan. However, the Jewish translators of the Septuagint, likely influenced by Babylonian calendar practices, interpreted this verse as referring to the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread (Nisan 15).

The rabbinical authorities, including the Pharisees, later adopted this interpretation, making Nisan 15 a Sabbath-like day of rest, especially in preparation for the main weekly Sabbath. This practice continues to be observed by many Jews today, particularly during Passover.

Here is more on the Sadducees in their early history from Google AI

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Yes, the Hasmoneans initially formed a coalition with the Sadducees. The Hasmoneans, who led the rebellion against the Seleucids, eventually established themselves as high priests and kings, and in doing so, they often aligned with the Sadducees. The Sadducees, who were primarily concerned with the Temple and the legal interpretations of the Torah, found common ground with the Hasmoneans' political ambitions and control of the priesthood.

Here's a more detailed explanation:

• Initial Coalition:
  The Hasmonean rebellion against the Seleucids was a movement that included a broad spectrum of Jewish groups, including the Sadducees.
  
  
• Control of the High Priesthood:
  The Hasmoneans, after successfully overthrowing the Seleucids, established their family as high priests. This power dynamic naturally drew them closer to the Sadducees, who traditionally held the high priestly office.
  
  
• Shared Interests:
  The Sadducees, with their emphasis on Temple rituals and the Torah, found common ground with the Hasmoneans' political goals, particularly their desire to maintain control of the Temple and the priesthood.
  
  
• Later Divisions:
  While the Hasmoneans and Sadducees initially aligned, there were later instances of conflict and division, particularly with the rise of the Pharisees and other factions. The Hasmonean period was marked by internal conflicts, and the Hasmoneans sometimes found themselves aligned with one faction against another.
  
  
• Political Factions:
  During the Hasmonean period, the Pharisees and Sadducees, while both sects of Judaism, also functioned as political factions, with their allegiances shifting depending on the circumstances.

 

[AFrazier]

SABER TRUTH TIGER
I provided proof from Leviticus 23 in the Hebrew Scriptures. The waving of the Omer was correctly done on the day AFTER the weekly Sabbath. I have dismissed your quote from Josephus because it is circular reasoning to use a Pharisee scholar to prove the Pharisee reckoning was correct. I simply use God’s Word to prove the waving of the Omer occurred on the day after the weekly Sabbath.

This is why we are not going to agree. I'm citing actual history, confirmed by a primary source. You're arguing your interpretation of scripture in direct opposition to the testimony of a primary source.

That's all I have to say. I'm right. You're not. And I'm not going to argue with you.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

This is why we are not going to agree. I'm citing actual history, confirmed by a primary source. You're arguing your interpretation of scripture in direct opposition to the testimony of a primary source.

The books of Moses are a primary source, too. You use Josephus to prove your point, I use Moses to prove mine. And, don't forget, God inspired Moses, but not Josephus.

That's all I have to say. I'm right. You're not. And I'm not going to argue with you.

That's ok, but you are not right. You're wrong to let Josephus trump Moses and the God who inspired him. You don't have to answer this if you don't want to,

Keep in mind I accept Josephus as a historical source for the Pharisee interpretation. I just don't believe he is correct in placing the waving of the Omer on Nisan 16. My reason is Moses's book on the matter, and I think Moses's "interpretation" trumps Josephus. They don't agree with one another.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

If you have proof to the contrary, then provide it. Apart from that, there's nothing more to say. I'm right until you demonstrate otherwise with credible evidence.

You're right until I demonstrate otherwise? That's illogical. If person A believes X and person B believes Y and B cannot prove A is wrong does not prove A is right. That's an illogical argument. They may both be wrong. Or, B may be right but lacks the ability to prove it. But let me assure you, you are NOT right in your insisting Nisan 15 was a Sabbath that preceded the waving of the Omer.

And, isn't Moses credible evidence?

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

That's all I have to say. I'm right. You're not. And I'm not going to argue with you.

This coming from someone who called me "childish" in an earlier post.

 

[AFrazier]

@Saber Truth Tiger

Let me see if I can break this down for you so you can understand. People do things how they do them. Regardless of what the Bible says in the law, or how you interpret it, the practice in the first century was nevertheless to bring the omer on the 16th and begin the count to Pentecost on that day. This is documented by a Jewish priest and historian of the first century. It is also documented in the Talmud as being the method.

What it says in the law, or how you interpret it, is irrelevant to the plain fact of history. The practice was based upon a different interpretation.

You claim that the practice of counting from the 16th was suspended during the years of Christ's mininstry. But you haven't proven that claim. The Saduccees being in charge doesn't automatically mean that the practice was changed or suspended. The fact that the practice had been in use for hundreds of years by that point makes it improbable. Maybe they did change it while they were in charge. I don't know. Fact is, there's no proof that they did or did not. The only proof we have is that prior to the time of Christ, the practice was to count from the 16th, and following the time of Christ, the practice was to count from the 16th.

You say that it changed during the time of Christ. But all I have seen from you as proof is your interpretation of the law, written in the 1400s BCE, which we all know was followed according to a different interpretation than the one you're applying to it. You seem to believe that the way you think it should be automatically makes it that way, and you have master-minded this baseless hypothesis that it changed during the time of Christ.

And to this, as I have said repeatedly . . . Prove it! SHOW ME, and I'll change my mind.

Until then, Josephus, a first century priest and Levite, a son of Aaron, states plainly that the way it was done, at least and especially in his day, which was the mid first century, was that the count to Pentecost began on the 16th. That means the Jewish world at that time considered the 15th a Sabbath, since the count was to begin on the morrow after the Sabbath. This does not mean that Josephus trumps scripture. It doesn't mean that you're not right about how the scripture should be interpreted in this instance. But what it does mean is that that is how it was done in the first century, because they were holding to a different interpretation of that scripture.

Furthermore, there was one law for the land. The Saduccees and Pharisees didn't practice the law differently, even if they disagreed on the interpretation of some things. Neither are you giving due credit to how the Pharisees "triumphed" over the Saduccees on this issue. It's not like they put the Saduccees to the sword. It may have been a long standing debate, and the Pharisees finally provided the golden argument that ended the debate. For all you know, the Saduccees agreed with the 15th Sabbath after having lost the debate.

But, again . . . no proof one way or the other.

But the point here is that this wasn't just how Josephus, the Pharisee, did it, while the Saduccees did it differently. They all did it the same way. The only thing that would have any bearing on this is if you could demonstrate with sound evidence that the practice changed during the time of Christ. All the currently available evidence says that it was this way both before and after him, and inferrably during the time he was here.

What you want it to be doesn't change what it was. I am open to proof. Frankly, this issue has no bearing on anything I research or study concerning chronology. I agree with a Friday crucifixion. I disagree with the 15th Sabbath being the day after the crucifixion. So, understand, I have no real dog in this fight. My only interest is the facts. And the available facts say that the 15th was considered a Sabbath in the first century. If you believe otherwise, prove it with a contemporary primary source.

 

[JSRG]

I think you did. I DO advocate for the fact that, historically, the 15th was considered a Sabbath of the holiday variety separate from the regular weekly Sabbath. That's why the count to Pentecost began on the 16th, per the evidence already provided. But I do not advocate for the crucifixion on any day other than Friday. That's the point I was making with Matthew. Because there were two days in that week that could be understood generically as "the Sabbath," he deliberately said the day circumlocutively (he said it in a round about way) so the days couldn't be unintentionally conflated.

Personally, in my earlier years of research and reading, it never really made sense to me why Matthew wouldn't just say, "the next day, on the Sabbath." Instead he gives us this descriptor to tell us it was Saturday, saying, "the next day, on the day that followed the day of the preparation." It always seemed like an unnecessary mouthful. But there is method to the madness if you realize there were two days that could be called the Sabbath.

Okay, in that case I did misunderstand you. I remember you previously mentioning the way Matthew said that, but I thought then--and thought again when I read your new post--that you were trying to make the opposite argument, that Matthew was using the apparently redundant verbiage to say it wasn't the weekly Sabbath. Instead, you were making the opposite argument. Whether the misunderstanding is due to your phrasing things poorly, me understanding things poorly, or some combination of the two, it is hard for me to say.

At any rate, with that matter cleared up, while there does seem evidence that the 15th was seen as a Sabbath, though not the weekly one, I am not so sure that it was actually called a Sabbath in Greek. Even Josephus, while offering that interpretation, never uses the Greek word for Sabbath to refer to it. Thus I do have to wonder if, in Greek, there was any real usage of the word Sabbath to refer to that day... though, I suppose there could have been in lost works.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

@Saber Truth Tiger

Let me see if I can break this down for you so you can understand. People do things how they do them. Regardless of what the Bible says in the law, or how you interpret it, the practice in the first century was nevertheless to bring the omer on the 16th and begin the count to Pentecost on that day. This is documented by a Jewish priest and historian of the first century. It is also documented in the Talmud as being the method.

What it says in the law, or how you interpret it, is irrelevant to the plain fact of history. The practice was based upon a different interpretation.

You claim that the practice of counting from the 16th was suspended during the years of Christ's mininstry. But you haven't proven that claim. The Saduccees being in charge doesn't automatically mean that the practice was changed or suspended. The fact that the practice had been in use for hundreds of years by that point makes it improbable. Maybe they did change it while they were in charge. I don't know. Fact is, there's no proof that they did or did not. The only proof we have is that prior to the time of Christ, the practice was to count from the 16th, and following the time of Christ, the practice was to count from the 16th.

You say that it changed during the time of Christ. But all I have seen from you as proof is your interpretation of the law, written in the 1400s BCE, which we all know was followed according to a different interpretation than the one you're applying to it. You seem to believe that the way you think it should be automatically makes it that way, and you have master-minded this baseless hypothesis that it changed during the time of Christ.

And to this, as I have said repeatedly . . . Prove it! SHOW ME, and I'll change my mind.

Until then, Josephus, a first century priest and Levite, a son of Aaron, states plainly that the way it was done, at least and especially in his day, which was the mid first century, was that the count to Pentecost began on the 16th. That means the Jewish world at that time considered the 15th a Sabbath, since the count was to begin on the morrow after the Sabbath. This does not mean that Josephus trumps scripture. It doesn't mean that you're not right about how the scripture should be interpreted in this instance. But what it does mean is that that is how it was done in the first century, because they were holding to a different interpretation of that scripture.

Furthermore, there was one law for the land. The Saduccees and Pharisees didn't practice the law differently, even if they disagreed on the interpretation of some things. Neither are you giving due credit to how the Pharisees "triumphed" over the Saduccees on this issue. It's not like they put the Saduccees to the sword. It may have been a long standing debate, and the Pharisees finally provided the golden argument that ended the debate. For all you know, the Saduccees agreed with the 15th Sabbath after having lost the debate.

But, again . . . no proof one way or the other.

But the point here is that this wasn't just how Josephus, the Pharisee, did it, while the Saduccees did it differently. They all did it the same way. The only thing that would have any bearing on this is if you could demonstrate with sound evidence that the practice changed during the time of Christ. All the currently available evidence says that it was this way both before and after him, and inferrably during the time he was here.

What you want it to be doesn't change what it was. I am open to proof. Frankly, this issue has no bearing on anything I research or study concerning chronology. I agree with a Friday crucifixion. I disagree with the 15th Sabbath being the day after the crucifixion. So, understand, I have no real dog in this fight. My only interest is the facts. And the available facts say that the 15th was considered a Sabbath in the first century. If you believe otherwise, prove it with a contemporary primary source.

AFRAZIER writes:
Let me see if I can break this down for you so you can understand. People do things how they do them. Regardless of what the Bible says in the law, or how you interpret it, the practice in the first century was nevertheless to bring the omer on the 16th and begin the count to Pentecost on that day.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 1 responds:

The practice in the early first century was not to bring the Omer on the 16th to begin the count to Pentecost, but rather, on Sunday, the day AFTER the first WEEKLY Sabbath of Passover. It was later, after the death of Christ, that the Pharisees gained control of the Temple worship and made Nisan 15 the Sabbath with Nisan 16 being the day of the Omer. You assume Nisan 16 was the day of the Omer when Jesus was alive, but you can’t prove it.

AFRAZIER writes:

This is documented by a Jewish priest and historian of the first century. It is also documented in the Talmud as being the method.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 2 responds:

The Pharisee method was documented by Josephus, Philo, and the rabbis who composed the Talmuds. This does not prove it was accurate. I agree these three documented their interpretation of the Law but that doesn’t make it true. The reason why the Sadducees left no documentation is they died out after the destruction of the Temple and any documents they may have left behind were not copied and passed down to others.

AFRAZIER writes:
What it says in the law, or how you interpret it, is irrelevant to the plain fact of history. The practice was based upon a different interpretation.ba

SABER TRUTH TIGER 3 replies:

The Hebrew Scriptures placed the waving of the Omer on Sunday, the day after the first weekly Sabbath of Passover. However Josephus, Philo, and the rabbis practiced it is irrelevant to the plain fact of history. They were the Johnny Come Latelys to the scene and gave an entirely unscriptural method of the waving of the Omer. Quoting them is not proof they were correct. I am interpreting Moses, and I believe Moses has more credibility than either Joesephus or the rabbis.

AFRAZIER writes:
You claim that the practice of counting from the 16th was suspended during the years of Christ's mininstry.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 4 replies:

No, it was NOT suspended during the years of Christ’s ministry, they were suspended from the time the Sadducees first regained control of the Temple sometime in the late second century BCE and it wasn’t until on or after the year of Rabbi Yohannan ben Zakkai became Nasi of the Sanhedrin that the Pharisees regained control of the Temple and put Nisan 16 in the place of the waving of the Omer. They weren’t suspended just for Christ’s ministry, but for over a century. The rabbis wrote about the time when Shavuot was “restored” because their interpretation, which existed before the Sadducees gained control of it, was returned after the Sadducees lost control.

AFRAZIER

But you haven't proven that claim. The Saduccees being in charge doesn't automatically mean that the practice was changed or suspended.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 5

The burden of proof is on you to show the Pharisee method was in effect when the Sadducees ruled the roost in the Temple. The Sadducees were in control of the Temple and its worship for over a century and you want me to believe they followed the Pharisee method during that period? The scriptural view, which the Sadducees followed, held that the waving of the Omer was on a Sunday, the first Sunday of Passover. The burden of proof is on you to show the Sadducees would follow their enemies the Pharisees misinterpretation of the Law and not follow their own while they were in power.

AFRAZIER

The fact that the practice had been in use for hundreds of years by that point makes it improbable.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 6

I am a man of facts. I need evidence. I need proof that the Pharisee view was in use hundreds of years by the time of the Sadducee reckoning became the norm.

AFRAZIER

Maybe they did change it while they were in charge. I don't know. Fact is, there's no proof that they did or did not.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 7

The Omer was first waved on Sunday in the days of early Israel and there is no record of a change for over a thousand years until after the Babylonian Exile. Then, it is believed that a battle occurred over which day should be the waving of the Omer, Nisan 15 or Sunday. The Nisan 15 view won out for some unknown time period but when the Sadducees regained control of the Temple their view prevailed. You haven’t shown that the Nisan 16 observance of the Omer occurred in the late second century and first century BCE. And the idea that the Sadducees would have honored the Pharisee interpretation while they were in control is ludicrous.

AFRAZIER

You claim that the practice of counting from the16th, and following the time of Christ, the practice was to count from the 16th.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 8

Yes, once the Pharisees regained control of the Temple, Shavuot was restored to it’s former date after the Babylonian Exile, which was in error. Josephus championed an errant view of the Omer date.

AFRAZIER
You say that it changed during the time of Christ.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 9

I have never made that claim. I have said the Sadducee method was in use during the time of Christ, not that it was changed during the time of Christ. You don’t read very carefully. It was changed BEFORE the time of Christ.

AFRAZIER

But all I have seen from you as proof is your interpretation of the law, written in the 1400s BCE, which we all know was followed according to a different interpretation than the one you're applying to it.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 10

That is false. The Omer was on Sunday from circa 1400 BCE to some time AFTER the Babylonian Exile. And even when it first began, it was the opinion of scholars matched against scholars of a differing viewpoint. The forerunners of the Pharisees were able to use it as the “right” day of the Omer, but no one knows for sure how long that was. The Sadducees gained control of the Temple in the late second century BCE and held it for over 150 years.

AFRAZIER

You seem to believe that the way you think it should be automatically makes it that way, and you have master-minded this baseless hypothesis that it changed during the time of Christ.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 11

I don’t believe it was done only during the time of Christ. Quote me where I said that.

AFRAZIER
And to this, as I have said repeatedly . . . Prove it! SHOW ME, and I'll change my mind.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 12

I have already shown you what Moses wrote and Moses, and the God who inspired him, trumps Josephus and the rabbis who compiled the Talmuds. I have proven it already by quoting a primary source written by Moses. You claim you want a primary source but you reject Moses as a primary source and refuse to listen to him.

AFRAZIER
Until then, Josephus, a first century priest and Levite, a son of Aaron, states plainly that the way it was done, at least and especially in his day, which was the mid first century, was that the count to Pentecost began on the 16th.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 13

And Moses, a contemporary of when the Law was given, says it was Sunday. Read post # 82 on page 10 of this thread. Josephus did indeed state how the Pharisees and the Jews who were around did it when THEY were in charge of the Temple. But this was AFTER the time of Christ.

AFRAIER

That means the Jewish world at that time considered the 15th a Sabbath, since the count was to begin on the morrow after the Sabbath.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 14

It doesn’t mean the whole Jewish world followed the Pharisee method either until the Pharisees regained control of the Temple. And even then, some continued to believe in the Sadducee reckoning. The Essenes had their own view on which day was the waving of the Omer. The Karaites today believe the Sadducean method is the most accurate.

AFRAZIER

This does not mean that Josephus trumps scripture. It doesn't mean that you're not right about how the scripture should be interpreted in this instance. But what it does mean is that that is how it was done in the first century, because they were holding to a different interpretation of that scripture.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 15

It was done in the second half of the first century CE. But not before Rabbi Yohannan ben Zakkai came along. Anyone that wants to see what Scripture says about the Omer should take a English translation of the Hebrew and compare it with the English translation of the Septuagint and see for yourself how the Greek translators tampered with scripture. Or, you can go to page 5 on this thread and read post # 82.

AFRAZIER

Furthermore, there was one law for the land. The Saduccees and Pharisees didn't practice the law differently, even if they disagreed on the interpretation of some things.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 16

Prove it. The Sadducees did follow the Pharisees after the Pharisees regained control in the first century CE but there is no evidence they followed the Pharisee interpretations while they were in power. You say they did? Proof please.

AFRAZIER

Neither are you giving due credit to how the Pharisees "triumphed" over the Saduccees on this issue. It's not like they put the Saduccees to the sword. It may have been a long standing debate, and the Pharisees finally provided the golden argument that ended the debate.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 17

I know for a fact the Pharisees triumphed over the Sadducees but they weren’t murderers who would put Sadducees to death for their political and religious views. It was a long standing debate. Rabbi ben Zakkai provided the necessary arguments to sway the tide of opinion.

AFRAZIER

For all you know, the Saduccees agreed with the 15th Sabbath after having lost the debate.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 18

As you say below, there is no proof that the Sadducees agreed with the Nisan 15 Sabbath but once the Pharisees won the debate under ben Zakkai they followed the Pharisee method, just like the Pharisees followed the Sadducean method when the Sadducees had control.

AFRAZIER
But, again . . . no proof one way or the other.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 19

Again, there is no proof the Pharisees would have put the Sadducees to death, but the Sadducees did submit to the new Nasi of the Sanhedrin. Ben Zakkai provided what the Sanhedrin needed to change its views on the Nisan 16 Omer.

AFRAZIER
But the point here is that this wasn't just how Josephus, the Pharisee, did it, while the Saduccees did it differently. They all did it the same way.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 20

AFTER the change they all did it the same way. The Sadducees accepted their defeat and there was a peaceful transfer of power.

AFRAZIER

The only thing that would have any bearing on this is if you could demonstrate with sound evidence that the practice changed during the time of Christ. All the currently available evidence says that it was this way both before and after him, and inferrably during the time he was here.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 21

It did not change when Jesus Christ was alive. The Sadducean method was in use over a century before Christ was born. It was used before him and after him, but when he was alive there were the Sadducees in charge of the Temple worship for over a century already.

AFRAZIER
What you want it to be doesn't change what it was.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 22

The same applies to you. Moses says it was the day AFTER the Sabbath and nowhere in the Hebrew Bible or Christian Bible is Nisan 15 directly called a Sabbath. It occurred on the same day of the weekly Sabbath when Jesus died but that’s about it.

AFRAZIER

I am open to proof.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 23

I have offered you Moses as proof. And Moses carries more weight to me than Josephus. Josephus is obviously honoring a different day than what the scriptures claim.

AFRAZIER

Frankly, this issue has no bearing on anything I research or study concerning chronology. I agree with a Friday crucifixion. I disagree with the 15th Sabbath being the day after the crucifixion. So, understand, I have no real dog in this fight. My only interest is the facts. And the available facts say that the 15th was considered a Sabbath in the first century.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 24

I believe Nisan 15 was considered a Sabbath and practiced as such in the first century too, just the latter half of the first century. I am a man of facts, and if you can show me Nisan 16 was the day of the Omer when Jesus was alive, I will consider your evidence prayerfully.

I am also glad you hold to the Friday crucifixion because that is the correct day of the week Jesus died.

 

[AFrazier]

AFRAZIER writes:
Let me see if I can break this down for you so you can understand. People do things how they do them. Regardless of what the Bible says in the law, or how you interpret it, the practice in the first century was nevertheless to bring the omer on the 16th and begin the count to Pentecost on that day.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 1 responds:

The practice in the early first century was not to bring the Omer on the 16th to begin the count to Pentecost, but rather, on Sunday, the day AFTER the first WEEKLY Sabbath of Passover. It was later, after the death of Christ, that the Pharisees gained control of the Temple worship and made Nisan 15 the Sabbath with Nisan 16 being the day of the Omer. You assume Nisan 16 was the day of the Omer when Jesus was alive, but you can’t prove it.

AFRAZIER writes:

This is documented by a Jewish priest and historian of the first century. It is also documented in the Talmud as being the method.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 2 responds:

The Pharisee method was documented by Josephus, Philo, and the rabbis who composed the Talmuds. This does not prove it was accurate. I agree these three documented their interpretation of the Law but that doesn’t make it true. The reason why the Sadducees left no documentation is they died out after the destruction of the Temple and any documents they may have left behind were not copied and passed down to others.

AFRAZIER writes:
What it says in the law, or how you interpret it, is irrelevant to the plain fact of history. The practice was based upon a different interpretation.ba

SABER TRUTH TIGER 3 replies:

The Hebrew Scriptures placed the waving of the Omer on Sunday, the day after the first weekly Sabbath of Passover. However Josephus, Philo, and the rabbis practiced it is irrelevant to the plain fact of history. They were the Johnny Come Latelys to the scene and gave an entirely unscriptural method of the waving of the Omer. Quoting them is not proof they were correct. I am interpreting Moses, and I believe Moses has more credibility than either Joesephus or the rabbis.

AFRAZIER writes:
You claim that the practice of counting from the 16th was suspended during the years of Christ's mininstry.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 4 replies:

No, it was NOT suspended during the years of Christ’s ministry, they were suspended from the time the Sadducees first regained control of the Temple sometime in the late second century BCE and it wasn’t until on or after the year of Rabbi Yohannan ben Zakkai became Nasi of the Sanhedrin that the Pharisees regained control of the Temple and put Nisan 16 in the place of the waving of the Omer. They weren’t suspended just for Christ’s ministry, but for over a century. The rabbis wrote about the time when Shavuot was “restored” because their interpretation, which existed before the Sadducees gained control of it, was returned after the Sadducees lost control.

AFRAZIER

But you haven't proven that claim. The Saduccees being in charge doesn't automatically mean that the practice was changed or suspended.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 5

The burden of proof is on you to show the Pharisee method was in effect when the Sadducees ruled the roost in the Temple. The Sadducees were in control of the Temple and its worship for over a century and you want me to believe they followed the Pharisee method during that period? The scriptural view, which the Sadducees followed, held that the waving of the Omer was on a Sunday, the first Sunday of Passover. The burden of proof is on you to show the Sadducees would follow their enemies the Pharisees misinterpretation of the Law and not follow their own while they were in power.

AFRAZIER

The fact that the practice had been in use for hundreds of years by that point makes it improbable.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 6

I am a man of facts. I need evidence. I need proof that the Pharisee view was in use hundreds of years by the time of the Sadducee reckoning became the norm.

AFRAZIER

Maybe they did change it while they were in charge. I don't know. Fact is, there's no proof that they did or did not.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 7

The Omer was first waved on Sunday in the days of early Israel and there is no record of a change for over a thousand years until after the Babylonian Exile. Then, it is believed that a battle occurred over which day should be the waving of the Omer, Nisan 15 or Sunday. The Nisan 15 view won out for some unknown time period but when the Sadducees regained control of the Temple their view prevailed. You haven’t shown that the Nisan 16 observance of the Omer occurred in the late second century and first century BCE. And the idea that the Sadducees would have honored the Pharisee interpretation while they were in control is ludicrous.

AFRAZIER

You claim that the practice of counting from the16th, and following the time of Christ, the practice was to count from the 16th.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 8

Yes, once the Pharisees regained control of the Temple, Shavuot was restored to it’s former date after the Babylonian Exile, which was in error. Josephus championed an errant view of the Omer date.

AFRAZIER
You say that it changed during the time of Christ.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 9

I have never made that claim. I have said the Sadducee method was in use during the time of Christ, not that it was changed during the time of Christ. You don’t read very carefully. It was changed BEFORE the time of Christ.

AFRAZIER

But all I have seen from you as proof is your interpretation of the law, written in the 1400s BCE, which we all know was followed according to a different interpretation than the one you're applying to it.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 10

That is false. The Omer was on Sunday from circa 1400 BCE to some time AFTER the Babylonian Exile. And even when it first began, it was the opinion of scholars matched against scholars of a differing viewpoint. The forerunners of the Pharisees were able to use it as the “right” day of the Omer, but no one knows for sure how long that was. The Sadducees gained control of the Temple in the late second century BCE and held it for over 150 years.

AFRAZIER

You seem to believe that the way you think it should be automatically makes it that way, and you have master-minded this baseless hypothesis that it changed during the time of Christ.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 11

I don’t believe it was done only during the time of Christ. Quote me where I said that.

AFRAZIER
And to this, as I have said repeatedly . . . Prove it! SHOW ME, and I'll change my mind.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 12

I have already shown you what Moses wrote and Moses, and the God who inspired him, trumps Josephus and the rabbis who compiled the Talmuds. I have proven it already by quoting a primary source written by Moses. You claim you want a primary source but you reject Moses as a primary source and refuse to listen to him.

AFRAZIER
Until then, Josephus, a first century priest and Levite, a son of Aaron, states plainly that the way it was done, at least and especially in his day, which was the mid first century, was that the count to Pentecost began on the 16th.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 13

And Moses, a contemporary of when the Law was given, says it was Sunday. Read post # 82 on page 10 of this thread. Josephus did indeed state how the Pharisees and the Jews who were around did it when THEY were in charge of the Temple. But this was AFTER the time of Christ.

AFRAIER

That means the Jewish world at that time considered the 15th a Sabbath, since the count was to begin on the morrow after the Sabbath.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 14

It doesn’t mean the whole Jewish world followed the Pharisee method either until the Pharisees regained control of the Temple. And even then, some continued to believe in the Sadducee reckoning. The Essenes had their own view on which day was the waving of the Omer. The Karaites today believe the Sadducean method is the most accurate.

AFRAZIER

This does not mean that Josephus trumps scripture. It doesn't mean that you're not right about how the scripture should be interpreted in this instance. But what it does mean is that that is how it was done in the first century, because they were holding to a different interpretation of that scripture.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 15

It was done in the second half of the first century CE. But not before Rabbi Yohannan ben Zakkai came along. Anyone that wants to see what Scripture says about the Omer should take a English translation of the Hebrew and compare it with the English translation of the Septuagint and see for yourself how the Greek translators tampered with scripture. Or, you can go to page 5 on this thread and read post # 82.

AFRAZIER

Furthermore, there was one law for the land. The Saduccees and Pharisees didn't practice the law differently, even if they disagreed on the interpretation of some things.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 16

Prove it. The Sadducees did follow the Pharisees after the Pharisees regained control in the first century CE but there is no evidence they followed the Pharisee interpretations while they were in power. You say they did? Proof please.

AFRAZIER

Neither are you giving due credit to how the Pharisees "triumphed" over the Saduccees on this issue. It's not like they put the Saduccees to the sword. It may have been a long standing debate, and the Pharisees finally provided the golden argument that ended the debate.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 17

I know for a fact the Pharisees triumphed over the Sadducees but they weren’t murderers who would put Sadducees to death for their political and religious views. It was a long standing debate. Rabbi ben Zakkai provided the necessary arguments to sway the tide of opinion.

AFRAZIER

For all you know, the Saduccees agreed with the 15th Sabbath after having lost the debate.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 18

As you say below, there is no proof that the Sadducees agreed with the Nisan 15 Sabbath but once the Pharisees won the debate under ben Zkkai they followed the Pharisee method, just like the Pharisees followed the Sadducean method when the Sadducees had control.

AFRAZIER
But, again . . . no proof one way or the other.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 19

Again, there is no proof the Pharisees would have put the Sadducees to death, but the Sadducees did submit to the new Nasi of the Sanhedrin. Ben Zakkai provided what the Sanhedrin needed to change its views on the Nisan 16 Omer.

AFRAZIER
But the point here is that this wasn't just how Josephus, the Pharisee, did it, while the Saduccees did it differently. They all did it the same way.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 20

AFTER the change they all did it the same way. The Sadducees accepted their defeat and there was a peaceful transfer of power.

AFRAZIER

The only thing that would have any bearing on this is if you could demonstrate with sound evidence that the practice changed during the time of Christ. All the currently available evidence says that it was this way both before and after him, and inferrably during the time he was here.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 21

It did not change when Jesus Christ was alive. The Sadducean method was in use over a century before Christ was born. It was used before him and after him, but when he was alive there were the Sadducees in charge of the Temple worship for over a century already.

AFRAZIER
What you want it to be doesn't change what it was.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 22

The same applies to you. Moses says it was the day AFTER the Sabbath and nowhere in the Hebrew Bible or Christian Bible is Nisan 15 directly called a Sabbath. It occurred on the same day of the weekly Sabbath when Jesus died but that’s about it.

AFRAZIER

I am open to proof.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 23

I have offered you Moses as proof. And Moses carries more weight to me than Josephus. Josephus is obviously honoring a different day than what the scriptures claim.

AFRAZIER

Frankly, this issue has no bearing on anything I research or study concerning chronology. I agree with a Friday crucifixion. I disagree with the 15th Sabbath being the day after the crucifixion. So, understand, I have no real dog in this fight. My only interest is the facts. And the available facts say that the 15th was considered a Sabbath in the first century.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 24

I believe Nisan 15 was considered a Sabbath and practiced as such in the first century too, just the latter half of the first century. I am a man of facts, and if you can show me Nisan 16 was the day of the Omer when Jesus was alive, I will consider your evidence prayerfully.

I am also glad you hold to the Friday crucifixion because that is the correct day of the week Jesus died.

I don't think you have the intellectual capacity to have this conversation. I'm out.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

I don't think you have the intellectual capacity to have this conversation. I'm out.

So, finally, in the end it comes out. You aren't interested in truth—only your interpretation of Josephus and the rabbis. Ad hominem much?

 

[JSRG]

AFRAZIER writes:
Let me see if I can break this down for you so you can understand. People do things how they do them. Regardless of what the Bible says in the law, or how you interpret it, the practice in the first century was nevertheless to bring the omer on the 16th and begin the count to Pentecost on that day.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 1 responds:

The practice in the early first century was not to bring the Omer on the 16th to begin the count to Pentecost, but rather, on Sunday, the day AFTER the first WEEKLY Sabbath of Passover. It was later, after the death of Christ, that the Pharisees gained control of the Temple worship and made Nisan 15 the Sabbath with Nisan 16 being the day of the Omer. You assume Nisan 16 was the day of the Omer when Jesus was alive, but you can’t prove it.

AFRAZIER writes:

This is documented by a Jewish priest and historian of the first century. It is also documented in the Talmud as being the method.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 2 responds:

The Pharisee method was documented by Josephus, Philo, and the rabbis who composed the Talmuds. This does not prove it was accurate. I agree these three documented their interpretation of the Law but that doesn’t make it true. The reason why the Sadducees left no documentation is they died out after the destruction of the Temple and any documents they may have left behind were not copied and passed down to others.

AFRAZIER writes:
What it says in the law, or how you interpret it, is irrelevant to the plain fact of history. The practice was based upon a different interpretation.ba

SABER TRUTH TIGER 3 replies:

The Hebrew Scriptures placed the waving of the Omer on Sunday, the day after the first weekly Sabbath of Passover. However Josephus, Philo, and the rabbis practiced it is irrelevant to the plain fact of history. They were the Johnny Come Latelys to the scene and gave an entirely unscriptural method of the waving of the Omer. Quoting them is not proof they were correct. I am interpreting Moses, and I believe Moses has more credibility than either Joesephus or the rabbis.

AFRAZIER writes:
You claim that the practice of counting from the 16th was suspended during the years of Christ's mininstry.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 4 replies:

No, it was NOT suspended during the years of Christ’s ministry, they were suspended from the time the Sadducees first regained control of the Temple sometime in the late second century BCE and it wasn’t until on or after the year of Rabbi Yohannan ben Zakkai became Nasi of the Sanhedrin that the Pharisees regained control of the Temple and put Nisan 16 in the place of the waving of the Omer. They weren’t suspended just for Christ’s ministry, but for over a century. The rabbis wrote about the time when Shavuot was “restored” because their interpretation, which existed before the Sadducees gained control of it, was returned after the Sadducees lost control.

AFRAZIER

But you haven't proven that claim. The Saduccees being in charge doesn't automatically mean that the practice was changed or suspended.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 5

The burden of proof is on you to show the Pharisee method was in effect when the Sadducees ruled the roost in the Temple. The Sadducees were in control of the Temple and its worship for over a century and you want me to believe they followed the Pharisee method during that period? The scriptural view, which the Sadducees followed, held that the waving of the Omer was on a Sunday, the first Sunday of Passover. The burden of proof is on you to show the Sadducees would follow their enemies the Pharisees misinterpretation of the Law and not follow their own while they were in power.

AFRAZIER

The fact that the practice had been in use for hundreds of years by that point makes it improbable.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 6

I am a man of facts. I need evidence. I need proof that the Pharisee view was in use hundreds of years by the time of the Sadducee reckoning became the norm.

AFRAZIER

Maybe they did change it while they were in charge. I don't know. Fact is, there's no proof that they did or did not.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 7

The Omer was first waved on Sunday in the days of early Israel and there is no record of a change for over a thousand years until after the Babylonian Exile. Then, it is believed that a battle occurred over which day should be the waving of the Omer, Nisan 15 or Sunday. The Nisan 15 view won out for some unknown time period but when the Sadducees regained control of the Temple their view prevailed. You haven’t shown that the Nisan 16 observance of the Omer occurred in the late second century and first century BCE. And the idea that the Sadducees would have honored the Pharisee interpretation while they were in control is ludicrous.

AFRAZIER

You claim that the practice of counting from the16th, and following the time of Christ, the practice was to count from the 16th.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 8

Yes, once the Pharisees regained control of the Temple, Shavuot was restored to it’s former date after the Babylonian Exile, which was in error. Josephus championed an errant view of the Omer date.

AFRAZIER
You say that it changed during the time of Christ.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 9

I have never made that claim. I have said the Sadducee method was in use during the time of Christ, not that it was changed during the time of Christ. You don’t read very carefully. It was changed BEFORE the time of Christ.

AFRAZIER

But all I have seen from you as proof is your interpretation of the law, written in the 1400s BCE, which we all know was followed according to a different interpretation than the one you're applying to it.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 10

That is false. The Omer was on Sunday from circa 1400 BCE to some time AFTER the Babylonian Exile. And even when it first began, it was the opinion of scholars matched against scholars of a differing viewpoint. The forerunners of the Pharisees were able to use it as the “right” day of the Omer, but no one knows for sure how long that was. The Sadducees gained control of the Temple in the late second century BCE and held it for over 150 years.

AFRAZIER

You seem to believe that the way you think it should be automatically makes it that way, and you have master-minded this baseless hypothesis that it changed during the time of Christ.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 11

I don’t believe it was done only during the time of Christ. Quote me where I said that.

AFRAZIER
And to this, as I have said repeatedly . . . Prove it! SHOW ME, and I'll change my mind.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 12

I have already shown you what Moses wrote and Moses, and the God who inspired him, trumps Josephus and the rabbis who compiled the Talmuds. I have proven it already by quoting a primary source written by Moses. You claim you want a primary source but you reject Moses as a primary source and refuse to listen to him.

AFRAZIER
Until then, Josephus, a first century priest and Levite, a son of Aaron, states plainly that the way it was done, at least and especially in his day, which was the mid first century, was that the count to Pentecost began on the 16th.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 13

And Moses, a contemporary of when the Law was given, says it was Sunday. Read post # 82 on page 10 of this thread. Josephus did indeed state how the Pharisees and the Jews who were around did it when THEY were in charge of the Temple. But this was AFTER the time of Christ.

AFRAIER

That means the Jewish world at that time considered the 15th a Sabbath, since the count was to begin on the morrow after the Sabbath.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 14

It doesn’t mean the whole Jewish world followed the Pharisee method either until the Pharisees regained control of the Temple. And even then, some continued to believe in the Sadducee reckoning. The Essenes had their own view on which day was the waving of the Omer. The Karaites today believe the Sadducean method is the most accurate.

AFRAZIER

This does not mean that Josephus trumps scripture. It doesn't mean that you're not right about how the scripture should be interpreted in this instance. But what it does mean is that that is how it was done in the first century, because they were holding to a different interpretation of that scripture.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 15

It was done in the second half of the first century CE. But not before Rabbi Yohannan ben Zakkai came along. Anyone that wants to see what Scripture says about the Omer should take a English translation of the Hebrew and compare it with the English translation of the Septuagint and see for yourself how the Greek translators tampered with scripture. Or, you can go to page 5 on this thread and read post # 82.

AFRAZIER

Furthermore, there was one law for the land. The Saduccees and Pharisees didn't practice the law differently, even if they disagreed on the interpretation of some things.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 16

Prove it. The Sadducees did follow the Pharisees after the Pharisees regained control in the first century CE but there is no evidence they followed the Pharisee interpretations while they were in power. You say they did? Proof please.

AFRAZIER

Neither are you giving due credit to how the Pharisees "triumphed" over the Saduccees on this issue. It's not like they put the Saduccees to the sword. It may have been a long standing debate, and the Pharisees finally provided the golden argument that ended the debate.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 17

I know for a fact the Pharisees triumphed over the Sadducees but they weren’t murderers who would put Sadducees to death for their political and religious views. It was a long standing debate. Rabbi ben Zakkai provided the necessary arguments to sway the tide of opinion.

AFRAZIER

For all you know, the Saduccees agreed with the 15th Sabbath after having lost the debate.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 18

As you say below, there is no proof that the Sadducees agreed with the Nisan 15 Sabbath but once the Pharisees won the debate under ben Zakkai they followed the Pharisee method, just like the Pharisees followed the Sadducean method when the Sadducees had control.

AFRAZIER
But, again . . . no proof one way or the other.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 19

Again, there is no proof the Pharisees would have put the Sadducees to death, but the Sadducees did submit to the new Nasi of the Sanhedrin. Ben Zakkai provided what the Sanhedrin needed to change its views on the Nisan 16 Omer.

AFRAZIER
But the point here is that this wasn't just how Josephus, the Pharisee, did it, while the Saduccees did it differently. They all did it the same way.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 20

AFTER the change they all did it the same way. The Sadducees accepted their defeat and there was a peaceful transfer of power.

AFRAZIER

The only thing that would have any bearing on this is if you could demonstrate with sound evidence that the practice changed during the time of Christ. All the currently available evidence says that it was this way both before and after him, and inferrably during the time he was here.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 21

It did not change when Jesus Christ was alive. The Sadducean method was in use over a century before Christ was born. It was used before him and after him, but when he was alive there were the Sadducees in charge of the Temple worship for over a century already.

AFRAZIER
What you want it to be doesn't change what it was.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 22

The same applies to you. Moses says it was the day AFTER the Sabbath and nowhere in the Hebrew Bible or Christian Bible is Nisan 15 directly called a Sabbath. It occurred on the same day of the weekly Sabbath when Jesus died but that’s about it.

AFRAZIER

I am open to proof.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 23

I have offered you Moses as proof. And Moses carries more weight to me than Josephus. Josephus is obviously honoring a different day than what the scriptures claim.

AFRAZIER

Frankly, this issue has no bearing on anything I research or study concerning chronology. I agree with a Friday crucifixion. I disagree with the 15th Sabbath being the day after the crucifixion. So, understand, I have no real dog in this fight. My only interest is the facts. And the available facts say that the 15th was considered a Sabbath in the first century.

SABER TRUTH TIGER 24

I believe Nisan 15 was considered a Sabbath and practiced as such in the first century too, just the latter half of the first century. I am a man of facts, and if you can show me Nisan 16 was the day of the Omer when Jesus was alive, I will consider your evidence prayerfully.

I am also glad you hold to the Friday crucifixion because that is the correct day of the week Jesus died.

While I can understand the desire to cut up someone's post into multiple pieces in order to respond to each point individually, I think cutting it up into this many pieces is excessive, and makes your post much harder to read or properly respond to.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

While I can understand the desire to cut up someone's post into multiple pieces in order to respond to each point individually, I think cutting it up into this many pieces is excessive, and makes your post much harder to read or properly respond to.

You are probably right. I prefer to respond to each point individually, so that no one can claim I am ignoring the majority of the post and answering only those I can address. I have been this way for over 25 years. I got this Iway by engaging in a forum where people demanded I stop evading their points and address everything they post. A bit unreasonable, but I did it anyway. It's challenging to address all points in one post, so I've chosen this method of replying. I will try to stop that in the future, but I believe I will be accused of evading points.

 

[AFrazier]

So, finally, in the end it comes out. You aren't interested in truth—only your interpretation of Josephus and the rabbis. Ad hominem much?

Bossman, you clearly aren't capable of logical argument. It eludes you entirely that how things were is how things were. Here today in our modern world, Christianity is comprised of both poor and wealthy. We have pastors driving Mercedes and BMWs, and paritioners driving old beater Hondas. The fact that the doctrine of Christianity was essentially communism doesn't change what is. All the interpreting of early Christian writings in the world won't change the fact that we live how we live, and interpret things today the way we interpret them.

In the first century, the practiced interpretation was to count from the 16th. We have evidence of it before Christ. We have evidence of it after Christ. We have no evidence that it changed during the time of Christ. What the law says, and how you interpret it, has no bearing on the reality of how they practiced it.

The fact that you are incapable of acknowledging this objective reality is why I say that you aren't intellectually capable of having this conversation. It's not about me acknowledging truth. It's about you acknowledging reality. Frankly, I'm not so sure I agree with your interpretation anyway. I always thought that the "morrow after the sabbath" meant the day after the 15th. But, again, our interpretations of the law are irrelevant. It was done how it was done. And I'm just not going to argue with you when you aren't presenting any facts.

IN fact, I have asked you repeatedly to provide sources. And all you do is quote the law, which has no bearing on the actual practice of the first century. Again, you are simply incapable of having this discussion on an intellectual and objective basis. I don't really have time for this nonsense. Fact is, you're more interested in being right and winning the debate than you are in being correct.

So, go believe what you want to believe, and leave the answers to those who are endeavoring to real scholarship.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

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[Aldebaran]

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