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The Crucifix a Graven Image?

Lizabth

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Jinc, in our church(LCMS), there is a cross over the very simple altar table, no crucifix. There is a crucifix on the back wall of the sanctuary, but I didn't even notice that for a long time. No one kisses anything in the service. Only the pastor makes the sign of the cross, at various points in the service.

One reason we were so comfortable in this congregation was the absence of roman gestures/fittings. I think you'll find a broad range of practice in the LCMS, some very roman, some almost reformed. You should be able to find a congregation that suits.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Jinc, in our church(LCMS), there is a cross over the very simple altar table, no crucifix. There is a crucifix on the back wall of the sanctuary, but I didn't even notice that for a long time. No one kisses anything in the service. Only the pastor makes the sign of the cross, at various points in the service.

One reason we were so comfortable in this congregation was the absence of roman gestures/fittings. I think you'll find a broad range of practice in the LCMS, some very roman, some almost reformed. You should be able to find a congregation that suits.

Yes, there is a variety of practice, certainly. The rubrics in LSB allow for services to be as elaborate or as simple as suits.

Scripture tells us that "we worship Christ crucified", the crucifixes that may be found in our Churches (and the one I wear around my neck all day, every day) remind us of this. :)
 
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EvangelCatholic

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Jinc, in our church(LCMS), there is a cross over the very simple altar table, no crucifix. There is a crucifix on the back wall of the sanctuary, but I didn't even notice that for a long time. No one kisses anything in the service. Only the pastor makes the sign of the cross, at various points in the service.

One reason we were so comfortable in this congregation was the absence of roman gestures/fittings. I think you'll find a broad range of practice in the LCMS, some very roman, some almost reformed. You should be able to find a congregation that suits.

Does your pastor bow and kiss the altar at the procession or the Bible after reading the Gospel? The altar for Lutherans, represents the Christ who shed His Body and Blood.

Years ago I attended several LCMS schools in the Midwest and remember these customs in the chapels [Valparaiso, Ft Wayne, St Louis]. I agree that our churches could be nothing more than an empty space and Christ is there. Believing in the Real Presence shapes our understanding and posture.

I'm sure the LCMS missal include the Good Friday Liturgy, by the way.
 

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MarkRohfrietsch

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Does your pastor bow and kiss the altar at the procession or the Bible after reading the Gospel? The altar for Lutherans, represents the Christ who shed His Body and Blood.

Years ago I attended several LCMS schools in the Midwest and remember these customs in the chapels [Valparaiso, Ft Wayne, St Louis]. I agree that our churches could be nothing more than an empty space and Christ is there. Believing in the Real Presence shapes our understanding and posture.

I'm sure the LCMS missal include the Good Friday Liturgy, by the way.

Not only Good Friday, but every day of Holy Week.
 
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jinc1019

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So, with respect, you may be missing the point on the idea of conciliar. Accepting a certain number of the ecumenical councils is pretty much part of being a Christian, the question is which ones and what bits. Disagree? Nicaea. Canon formation. Etc.

The thing is, you have consensus with someone based on your convictions. Unless, of course, you're the only member of your church, and you hold that only you can properly interpret Scripture (nota bene: I am not accusing you of this!). The idea is to interpret Scripture in community, and we've all got certain lenses through which we read it. You can't do away with tradition entirely.

Asserting that Elvira is more important because it is older is unfortunately a fallacy- it's the appeal to antiquity.

It's not a matter of majority opinion, either. If that were the case, we'd all be Arians. Even regarding the formation of the canon - you've pretty much got to have some view of the role of the Holy Spirit in doctrinal developments.

As for what the apostles believed, we certainly hope that we've got a decent idea of oral apostolic tradition as well as the written records. Early church representations of Christ were a controversy, true. The earliest surviving was in the early 200s, I think, and the famous Good Shepherd one is also, I think, 3rd century. So you are really only a few generations away. The point is, if you believe that the Holy Spirit is at work preserving right doctrine, then it turned out the way it did for a reason (conversely, staunch Reformed would argue that the return of the prohibition is the work of the Spirit. I grant that).

What matters is who we are in community with, and why, because that goes a long way toward determining our hermeneutic - Luther's catechism treats the Ten Commandments, to be sure. I get how certain ways of looking at things can make one pull up short when transitioning traditions. The issue is a change in how we interpret Scripture, and well, everything, really. Everybody does it, we just become really aware of it when we bump up against each other like this.

Oh, and there can't be another "ecumenical council" with everyone involved because the RCC wouldn't let people play - no apostolic succession of bishops. And we'd probably all be RCC anyway, if they hadn't tied their hands with Trent (seriously, this is a huge problem for the RCC, they'd really like to go back on some of that).

I hope this doesn't come off as aggressive, it's not meant to be - I'm just trying to pack a lot in a small space.

It doesn't come off as aggressive.

Also, I wasn't appealing to Elvira as proof in the sense that because an old council said something, it must be true. I was merely pointing out that this position is just as old as the position in support of images of Jesus. This is a necessary point to make since so many who support images point to the idea that the church has held that view for a long time as evidence. This is, in my opinion, necessary for them to do since there is no mention of Christ being portrayed in any of the Apostolic writings.

My passion is to get as close to the Apostles as possible...I disagree with you that 200 years after Christ is any way close. 200 years is a very, very long time, and I can think of many, many issues that church fathers were teaching as apostolic that all Protestants can pretty much agree were wrong. For instance, Irenaeus taught that it was an apostolic teaching that Jesus' ministry lasted into his forties and spanned roughly 15 years. The delay of baptism is another obvious one. By the end of the 2nd century, baptisms only occurred in many parts of the church once a year or so, and some people had to wait for three years to be baptized (from what I read in one source). What does the Bible say about that, however? The apostolic record is clear that those who believe should be baptized IMMEDIATELY. No one is supposed to wait for months and months. This was a development.

Baptism by immersion is another one. We know that baptism by immersion was always the standard practice unless something prevented it or made it too difficult (drought, desert conditions, etc.).

I think you see my point.

Because someone was doing something 200 years after Jesus rose from the dead does not make it apostolic. What do you think George Washington and Thomas Jefferson would think of modern American society and government? A lot can happen in 200 years.
 
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jinc1019

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Jinc, in our church(LCMS), there is a cross over the very simple altar table, no crucifix. There is a crucifix on the back wall of the sanctuary, but I didn't even notice that for a long time. No one kisses anything in the service. Only the pastor makes the sign of the cross, at various points in the service.

One reason we were so comfortable in this congregation was the absence of roman gestures/fittings. I think you'll find a broad range of practice in the LCMS, some very roman, some almost reformed. You should be able to find a congregation that suits.

Thanks for this! -Justin
 
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Tangible

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Making the sign of the cross is not "Roman". Luther specifically instructs us to make the sign of the cross each morning and evening at prayers and also says that it is appropriate at other times in the small and large catechisms.
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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Hi All,

I've come even closer to Lutheranism, but one of the trouble areas I have had lately is with displaying Christ in worship. I think there are a number of problems with this, and I am hoping you all can provide me with some good reasons why we ought to do it. My major issues with it are this:

1. I worry that although people don't typically worship it per se, they do tend to show a higher level of respect toward than they would most other images, and this could be, in a sense, a minor form of worship. In the Greek OT, there is no distinction between levels of respect you can give within the context of worship. I guess I just worry that by having it, people could be drawn to it in a way that makes it a sort of idol.

2. We don't know what Jesus looked like, and if we display a picture of Christ and direct our attention to it, we are really directing our attention in worship to something that isn't even accurate. Not only isn't it accurate, it's someone else up there other than Christ...and this makes me feel uncomfortable in light of the Ten Commandments.

3. And this is the thing that makes me feel most uncomfortable: From the research I have done, it appears as though many early Christians were opposed to any images of humans in church at all and virtually all Christians of the first three centuries practiced Christianity without pictures of Christ. All the sources I can find addressing this issue indicate that Christians were totally opposed to the practice. Although tradition is not authoritative like scripture is, this issue is complicated because the Ten Commandments does warn us about worshipping or serving pictures and tells us not to make images of God...And then we see that the earliest Christians seemed to understand this as a prohibition against making images of Christ. Yet, today, Lutherans seem ok with the practice.

Let me be clear: I am not a believer in the Regulative Principle of Worship, but I do worry about this practice of displaying Christ in an inaccurate, 3-d form that could conflict with the prohibitions of the Bible and definitely seems to violate what most Christians believed in the first 300 years or so after Christ.

Help on this?

The late antiqute Jewish imagery at Sepphoris, Sardis, and Dura Europos, and the early Christian imagery at Dura Europos and in the Roman catacombs, seems to indicate that there were both Christians and Jews who were happy representing the human form and in particular, Christians who depicted Jesus.

The real point I think you hit on is the crucifix, not because it is a representation of Jesus, but because it is three dimensional. I'm honestly not sure what to do about that. In general, I don't have a problem with it because I understand the Torah to be the divinely-inspired political constitution of Israel that merely reflects eternal laws of God in that particular culture and in that particular dispensation. At the same time, there is ancient Christian precedent forbidding three dimensional imagery (Nicaea II 787), so I remain uncertain.

That said, my church has one of the loveliest crucifixes I've ever seen and wouldn't want it taken it down for the world.
 
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jinc1019

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Making the sign of the cross is not "Roman". Luther specifically instructs us to make the sign of the cross each morning and evening at prayers and also says that it is appropriate at other times in the small and large catechisms.

I make the sign of the cross often...I'm not sure what you're responding to here.
 
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jinc1019

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The late antiqute Jewish imagery at Sepphoris, Sardis, and Dura Europos, and the early Christian imagery at Dura Europos and in the Roman catacombs, seems to indicate that there were both Christians and Jews who were happy representing the human form and in particular, Christians who depicted Jesus.

The real point I think you hit on is the crucifix, not because it is a representation of Jesus, but because it is three dimensional. I'm honestly not sure what to do about that. In general, I don't have a problem with it because I understand the Torah to be the divinely-inspired political constitution of Israel that merely reflects eternal laws of God in that particular culture and in that particular dispensation. At the same time, there is ancient Christian precedent forbidding three dimensional imagery (Nicaea II 787), so I remain uncertain.

That said, my church has one of the loveliest crucifixes I've ever seen and wouldn't want it taken it down for the world.

In regards to your references, I don't believe any one of them is within 180 years or so of Christ's death. In fact, most of them come 200 years after. If I'm wrong about that, I hope you'll correct me.

I'm not sure if it matters whether the image is 3d or not...Exodus 20 clearly says "any likeness" after using the term "graven images." I think it's saying graven images are wrong, but so are any likenesses, at least within the context of worship. I've never heard a very good argument for why 2d images would be acceptable but 3d would not. I know the EO has the view, but I have never really heard the distinction explained. If you know, I'd love to know why you have more of an issue with one over the other.
 
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Melethiel

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You are making an extremely large assumption here: You are assuming what I see when I look at a modern picture of Jesus is actually Jesus...and it's not. It's some artist's fabrication based on nothing. Most pictures of Jesus today aren't even depicting a Jewish man in terms of his appearance! If this idea that we must be depicting Christ or else we would be violating the First Commandment makes no sense in light of the evidence. What I mean is this: Where is there a description of Christ's appearance in the Gospels? Where is a description of his appearance in the early church? Where is there any evidence of a picture of Christ in the first 200 years of Christianity? You won't find any of that. If what you are saying is true, there would be pictures of Jesus everywhere and the Apostles would have been sure to describe his appearance! Yet, they didn't. I think that speaks volumes.

There is a reason that traditional iconography (as opposed to later Renaissance art) is decidedly not realistic. It is precisely because we do not know what Christ truly looked like that iconography as is fully realized in the Eastern tradition is very symbolic in its forms.

Regarding your earlier quote from Eusebius - I've heard some make that argument. However, that argument is very Nestorian and goes against the heart of Chalcedon. You cannot separate the Divine and Human natures, because there is only one Christ that is depicted. To say that an icon of Christ depicts only the human nature is just as nonsensical as saying that a photograph of me depicts only my body.
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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In regards to your references, I don't believe any one of them is within 180 years or so of Christ's death. In fact, most of them come 200 years after. If I'm wrong about that, I hope you'll correct me.

You're right about the Christian imagery; most of that is 180 or later. But the Jewish imagery is earlier, if I recall. Of course, the issue is different when God is incarnate and the God-man is being depicted, but the depiction of angels does not seem to have been an issue for Jews (even prescribed in the Torah!).

I'm not sure if it matters whether the image is 3d or not...Exodus 20 clearly says "any likeness" after using the term "graven images." I think it's saying graven images are wrong, but so are any likenesses, at least within the context of worship.

I actually really have to disagree here. On a semantic level, "likeness" is probably something like "form" (the Hebrew is temunah, and related to min, kind) in the same sense that idols are in the form of the god they represent and receive the worship on behalf of the god. On a literary level it is probably just standard Hebrew parallelism, repeating the same idea in other words.

The God's Word translation, which is a contemporary English translation meant to be readable but without being a paraphrase (and usually does an excellent job conveying the sense of any given passage), renders it thus: "Never make your own carved idols or statues that represent any creature in the sky, on the earth, or in the water. Never worship them or serve them, because I, the Lord your God, am a God who does not tolerate rivals."

And I think it is worth noting that, while Jewish tradition is aniconic when it comes to portrayals of divinity, Exodus 20 is pretty specifically speaking about depictions of creatures (including other gods) receiving worship, not depictions of God himself. It is an elaboration of the commandment to worship God alone, not a separate commandment in-and-of-itself. I'd contend that the theology behind the prohibition of imagery in worship centers around the twin reality that images receiving worship are not gods and that prior to the incarnation God has no image that can be depicted. Therefore there is nothing, prior to the incarnation, that can properly depict anything that might receive worship through imagery. But that situation can change afterward.

I've never heard a very good argument for why 2d images would be acceptable but 3d would not. I know the EO has the view, but I have never really heard the distinction explained. If you know, I'd love to know why you have more of an issue with one over the other.

Essentially, I contrast the (official) theology of icons in Eastern Orthodoxy with the theology of statuary in the Ancient Near East.

Ancient Near Eastern and even Greco-Roman statuary fills in for the presence of the deity. The idols are dressed and undressed daily, bathed in perfume and oils, and, especially, actually receive the devotion and worship in place of the deity. The statue receives the worship directly, and therefore the deity is worshiped.

In Orthodox iconography, the icon itself isn't an object of worship because fundamentally it isn't an object. It is a window, and that window allows us to see into the heavenly realms or into the sacred past or into the eschatological future, and that window allows us to worship the person pictured therein (God the Son) directly. In fact, it does exactly what we do mentally do anyway: we imagine/image Christ while we worship. But an icon does that same thing in an objective, public, and communal way rather than in a private and subjective way.

Two caveats to this, though.

First, statuary isn't really a probably in-and-of-itself (obviously, since God commanded angelic statuary on the ark), but only when it is a recipient of worship or a vehicle for worship. At best, it can be a psychological aid and reminder prior (either conceptually or chronologically) to worship. In that sense a crucifix (or other statuary) may be an inducement to meditation prior to worship, but it cannot be an object of meditation or worship (as in paganism) or even a vehicle for meditation or worship (as with icons).

Second, the Eastern Orthodox have gone entirely overboard with icons, and have begun treating them as direct objects of substitutionary worship rather than as windows into heaven. Icons are washed, robed, spritzed with perfume and incense, etc., in exactly the same way pagan statues were. That is equally unacceptable.

All this goes back to the fact that I think the prohibition against three-dimensional images is primarily (1) merely a subset of the prohibition against the worship of other gods and (2) simply a consequence of the fact that prior to the incarnation God had no visible form. In fact, my reticence against statuary has less to do with Old Testament commandments than it has to do with the the fact that it somewhat falls outside the theological justification for the use of two-dimensional imagery in worship.
 
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EvangelCatholic

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Sometimes visuals help us look at a "Graven Image". Directories of Lutheran churches show how style evolves. The Church of Sweden is still building parishes that one can access on Wikimedia Commons.

A tasteful plain cross formation in one parish to icons in others. Is the first church the only one free of a graven image?
 

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Melethiel

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Either way... It's not depicting Jesus. Is like if someone made a painting of me 200 years after I was dead and went around telling people that's me... It's not me. It's just some imaginative version.

....but that's the whole point of stylized, non-realistic icons.

I also don't see the problem.
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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Sometimes visuals help us look at a "Graven Image". Directories of Lutheran churches show how style evolves. The Church of Sweden is still building parishes that one can access on Wikimedia Commons.

A tasteful plain cross formation in one parish to icons in others. Is the first church the only one free of a graven image?

Those are all beautiful and magnificent. Especially the third.
 
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EvangelCatholic

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Those are all beautiful and magnificent. Especially the third.

Yes, modern doesn't have to mean austere. I also like art symbolizing God to Moses in the last painting and the modern church in the earlier post.
 

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FireDragon76

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There's a distinction in the Christian tradition between worship due only to God and veneration due to holy things. If you stand at attention at a national anthem, put your hand over your heart and so on, how is that any different than kissing a cross or genuflecting, as both are signs of respect?

Also, many Christians would disagree that we have no images of Christ at all. The EO would certainly disagree as their is a tradition that their iconic representation of Christ can be traced back to a cloth that touched Christ's head. The Shroud of Turin may also be related to this tradition. And there is a remarkable amount of similarity between all the various depictions of Christ in Christian art throughout the centuries. Perhaps it's not coincidental.

I believe the Torah's commandments against graven things have to do with pagan cults, which is far more than simply showing respect to an image. In the ancient world it involved religion- burning sacrifices to images inhabited by gods or spirits to win their favor or secure a covenant. It certainly can't be against artistic depictions because the Hebrews had representations of angels even in their temple in Jerusalem.
 
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EvangelCatholic

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Worth quoting. American Lutherans have been influenced by non-liturgical Protestants. Looking though Lutheran directories, it seems only in north America is a plain cross common.


Some Lutherans began to move away from crucifixes during the age of Lutheran Pietism, which rejected much of Lutheran doctrine and consequently many Lutheran worship practices. At the time, Lutheran Pietists, contrary to the clear position of Luther and the earlier Lutherans, held that symbols such as the crucifix were wrong. This was never the view of historic Lutheranism. Here in America, Lutherans have always felt a certain pressure to “fit in” with the Reformed Christianity that predominates much of the Protestant church here. Thus, for some Lutherans this meant doing away with things such as crucifixes and vestments, and other traditional forms of Lutheran worship and piety. It is sad when some Lutherans are made to feel embarrassed about their Lutheranism by members of churches that teach the Word of God in error and who do not share Lutheranism’s clear confession and practice of the full truth of the Word of God.


We have some lovely chapels in the U.S. Like this parish merely relocating the original altar to a newer building.
 

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