the cross

[lutherangerman]

Hi,

I'm having some problems with estimating Jesus' suffering on the cross. When I confront myself with it, I find two reactions in me. One is to feel humbled and to recognize the cross as a sign of love, the other is to be terrified because I perceive in the cross a debt which I can never pay off - but have to try to do so. Some years earlier I also felt that I would have to suffer with Jesus when I watch a video like Passion of the Christ with Mel Gibson or something. But I just can't always "produce" co-suffering like that. I guess it's normal and human, but I also feel a kind of hesitation to suffer with Jesus there, wanting to avoid pain. But then I have moments of pure sympathy in which anything seems proper and then I have an emotional connection to Jesus which feels very soothing.

In the internet I met other christians who felt that nonbelievers would simply have to understand the depth of Jesus pain on the cross. I don't know if I can agree with that. There have been people whose whole life was pretty painful. Not wanting to disrespect our Lord, but Jesus suffered only for a day while others suffer for much longer. I don't believe Jesus wants all this talk of Him suffering SO MUCH in order to impress us. In fact what I tend to think is that Jesus wants to shout into our ears, make use of the cross, make use of my sacrifice, use it as a weapon against sin and guilt and evil, I have made myself weak there to make you strong.

Actually, the movie I cited, Passion of the Christ, even helps there. The way Jesus looks into our eyes in that movie, it's really divine. And Mary's sympathy with her son was so pure and motherly, the whole scene wasn't to make a show like in the theater. And frankly, my desire when I see such crucifixion scenes is to get a cup of water and bring it to Jesus, I become mild and it's my wish to end suffering like this when I encounter it in my life.

That's perhaps the hardest element of the teaching of the cross, that nobody could help Jesus once they nailed Him on the wood. I guess that was a big temptation for our Lord, He could have said a prayer and the Father would have rescued Him immediately, but that would have meant our doom and Jesus didn't want that. He always had to suffer willingly, that's why in the movie Jesus says when He gets whipped, Father, my heart is ready. I see such strength in Jesus, He never stops being the perfect Son of God, even when battered and broken.

 

[LilLamb219]

the other is to be terrified because I perceive in the cross a debt which I can never pay off - but have to try to do so.

What do you mean you have to try to pay off the debt? Free gifts do not have to be paid. It's like you're rejecting the forgiveness that was already won if you think you still have to do any work.

 

[Forscher]

Hi,

I'm having some problems with estimating Jesus' suffering on the cross. When I confront myself with it, I find two reactions in me. One is to feel humbled and to recognize the cross as a sign of love, the other is to be terrified because I perceive in the cross a debt which I can never pay off - but have to try to do so. Some years earlier I also felt that I would have to suffer with Jesus when I watch a video like Passion of the Christ with Mel Gibson or something. But I just can't always "produce" co-suffering like that. I guess it's normal and human, but I also feel a kind of hesitation to suffer with Jesus there, wanting to avoid pain. But then I have moments of pure sympathy in which anything seems proper and then I have an emotional connection to Jesus which feels very soothing.

In the internet I met other christians who felt that nonbelievers would simply have to understand the depth of Jesus pain on the cross. I don't know if I can agree with that. There have been people whose whole life was pretty painful. Not wanting to disrespect our Lord, but Jesus suffered only for a day while others suffer for much longer. I don't believe Jesus wants all this talk of Him suffering SO MUCH in order to impress us. In fact what I tend to think is that Jesus wants to shout into our ears, make use of the cross, make use of my sacrifice, use it as a weapon against sin and guilt and evil, I have made myself weak there to make you strong.

Actually, the movie I cited, Passion of the Christ, even helps there. The way Jesus looks into our eyes in that movie, it's really divine. And Mary's sympathy with her son was so pure and motherly, the whole scene wasn't to make a show like in the theater. And frankly, my desire when I see such crucifixion scenes is to get a cup of water and bring it to Jesus, I become mild and it's my wish to end suffering like this when I encounter it in my life.

That's perhaps the hardest element of the teaching of the cross, that nobody could help Jesus once they nailed Him on the wood. I guess that was a big temptation for our Lord, He could have said a prayer and the Father would have rescued Him immediately, but that would have meant our doom and Jesus didn't want that. He always had to suffer willingly, that's why in the movie Jesus says when He gets whipped, Father, my heart is ready. I see such strength in Jesus, He never stops being the perfect Son of God, even when battered and broken.

I really have a mix feeling regarding your post. And somewhat confused.
You made some good statements which actually helped me to view another side Jesus' suffering at the cross, but then it was mixed with some flawed statements.

First, you need to answer Lil Lamb questions, I am also confused there.

Then, what do you mean by estimating Jesus's suffering in the cross? Your first reaction is OK, but not the second one. There is no co-suffering in our part. The problem in your post is that when you say that you 'hesitate to suffer with Jesus pain' it is not because of realizing that we are sinners and cannot do anything for our salvation, but because you 'want to avoid pain'.

'Jesus suffered for a day while others much longer?'
You are talking about GOD, the HOLY ONE, who became human, lived with us, and killed for us, the sinners who are damned according to His law.

 

[lutherangerman]

I'm sorry if I couldn't be any clearer. I just have these things in my head which I couldn't sort out so far. For example, I know that grace is a gift of God, and that it's free - but there is still the notion that it should transform us and that we do better in the future than in our sinful pasts. Now don't get me wrong, I love and accept that, but I have troubles following through with it all. EG, I have bad thoughts sometimes and they really give me trouble. I feel like they should be gone but they come back again and again. It seems to me God is saying, no, I won't take your issues away entirely, but I will give you release and solace and help anytime you come to me. I mean, God doesn't want to remove all my problems so that I don't have them anymore at all, but what He does want is to support me and to have me come to Him often for any aid that I might need.

Oh, and I have schizophrenia, so sometimes I am drawn to odd thoughts and ideas which I like to check with other christians before I fall off at the deep end somehow which has happened a few times in the past when I wasn't much in touch with other christians.

And Forscher, yes, I recognize that Jesus' death is something special. But I also believe that Jesus is wise and mature and far above us, a really big God who doesn't intend on downplaying our own human sufferings. I don't quite think that God wanted to simply impress us with the ultimate pain and suffering, because simply put other people's sufferings were greater. It has more to do with Jesus taking up the human life and showing to us His loving intent and that He has stepped into human life to make us see that God's is honest. For me, the cross is also simply a sign. It has God suffering with and for His children, and that is something that has been going on since the creation of the world, it's God's nature to suffer with us. God is emotional. God isn't a stone but a soft heart that can be moved by seeing us suffer. I think God's anger that sometimes flares up has the same origin, because sins really offend God, they really strike into His heart and so the cross is simply a metaphor for what's always going on, we don't care about God's feelings, whether He is hurt by our mistrust and such.

 

[LilLamb219]

I think of God as seeing us through cross-colored lenses. When He sees us, He sees His son who died for us and we are reconciled. I don't believe we're punished because of our sins...we are, however, allowed to experience consequences to our sins. Such as, if I steal, I get put in jail.

I'm sorry to hear you experience schizophrenia. I don't know what you're going through but God's blessings to you all the same

As for having bad thoughts and doing things we shouldn't...I do those things too. I can't understand why there are some sins I cannot toss to the side. My mind tells me to do it (toss aside), but then I don't follow through and I get really angry and horrified that I am still a sinner. That's why it's a wonderful thing to attend church and receive the actual forgiveness won at the cross!! No matter how much I fail, God is there to pick me up

 

[Forscher]

You gave me a new view about Jesus' action at the cross. Thank you for that.I got your point, that our God has emotion, He is honest, He gets angry when we sin, but most ultimately he is a loving God. However, I would not use the the term 'simply a sign/methapors', because it was real, and the main reason is to reconsile us sinners to God.

About doing bad things, I know how you feel, it is an ongoing problem for me too, as also I think every other Christians. We maybe fall but remember that God will always be there to catch us and stand us up again. We have the promise that Holy Spirit, through the Words and the Sacraments, will always guide us and lead us more and more into Christ. It's an ongoing struggle but God gives us the means to console our soul.

I am glad that you have a good insight about your condition, that you also continue to communicate with other Christians. I do not know what you are going through, but I dealt with several people with schizophrenia before. I assume that you are undergoing medication also, I hope you follow them thoroughly. Because schizophrenia IS manageable with drugs and psycotherapy. Having a good insight about your condition and wanting to manage it is always a good sign.

Keep strong in God!

 

[lutherangerman]

Hi Forscher,

well, I think about the God being angry part, the bible says that God's anger lasts for only a second. That is, God's being longsuffering is stronger than His anger. And Jeremiah says that God is devoted to planting us into His land with ALL HIS SOUL AND ALL HIS HEART.

I don't subscribe to Edwards who emphasizes the terrible God. I am with Luther who emphasizes the gracious God.

 

[JCFantasy23]

Thank you for your post, it has given me a lot of thought. I also have issues with thoughts of Jesus and the cross sometimes, but rarely see anything discussed on it like you have done, so I thank you.

 

[Christ's follower]

Hi. I hope it is okay if I post here. I was confirmed in the Lutheran church.

I once heard a sermon on the amount that Jesus suffered on the cross, which totally changed the way I saw Jesus' suffering on the cross. In the time Jesus was on the cross, He beared the weight of every sin ever committed or ever to be committed. He did not just bear the weight, He suffered for every sin ever committed.

You can say that some people suffer a lifetime, and Jesus suffered billions and billions and billions of lifetimes in the amount of time he was on the cross. He bore our sin, all of everyone's sin in the time He was on the cross. He suffered more than all of humanity combined, for us.

Thank you, Jesus!

 

[TheCosmicGospel]

Sounds to me that you feel like a litle bug that's been pegged to the cross and your good decency wonders a) how to get out of this mess b) why would Jesus do this for me.

That you ponder such a thing to a depth that it bothers you is commendable to a point but have to call it for what it is, self conflagration (self torture at your expense).

He did it out of His love a) for us b) the Father c) the building up of the Kingdom. Add to that, just kick His old adversary to hell. Good reasons, all in all, which you and I are only a small part of.

There is a cross on a hill, where the dearest and best, for a world of lost sinners was slain. So I'll cherish the old rugged cross.

Next time you feel like a bug pegged to the twin beams of salvation, count me in.

Peace,

Cos

 

[RadMan]

Sounds to me that you feel like a litle bug that's been pegged to the cross and your good decency wonders a) how to get out of this mess b) why would Jesus do this for me.

That you ponder such a thing to a depth that it bothers you is commendable to a point but have to call it for what it is, self conflagration (self torture at your expense).

He did it out of His love a) for us b) the Father c) the building up of the Kingdom. Add to that, just kick His old adversary to hell. Good reasons, all in all, which you and I are only a small part of.

There is a cross on a hill, where the dearest and best, for a world of lost sinners was slain. So I'll cherish the old rugged cross.

Next time you feel like a bug pegged to the twin beams of salvation, count me in.

Peace,

Cos

Right on Cos. My keyboard is actimg up but I would have posted the same responce. He sounds like Luther before he "grew up".