The Creationist Corner

[Kylie]

Could be that you see it that way.

It's happened countless times. Religion has often made claims that people insisted were 100% accurate and then were later shown to be wrong.

There is a difference between the physical and the spiritual. Science works off of the Physical and Religion works off of the Spiritual. At times the Physical and the Spiritual do seem to contradict themselves and they can be difficult to reconcile.

Look at the story that Jesus tells about the parable of the children in the market place.

“To what can I compare this generation? They are like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling out to others:
‘We played the flute for you,
and you did not dance;
we sang a dirge
and you did not mourn.’
For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and “sinners.” ’ But wisdom is proved right by her actions.””
Matthew 11:16-18 (Luke 7:31-32)

In both Matthew and Luke this little parable is found wedged between Jesus talking about John the Baptist and Him expressing frustration at the Pharisees fault-finding paradigm and impossible-to-pleasyness. We have science and we have religion and they were both created by God and they both are designed to lead you do God. But a stumbling block needs to be turned into a stepping stone and so far you cannot seem to be able to do that. If you are a good steward of what you have then more will be given, but if you do not properly handle what you have then even that will be taken away from you.

12"For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. 13"Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.14"In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, 'YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND; YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;…

There are people that only go to a church for a funeral and for a wedding. In the parable Jesus says this is all they will get. If they do not accept either message then God does not give them anymore then that. One is happy the other is sad. It maybe difficult to reconcile the two.

Jesus says that wisdom is justified by her children. The ministry of John and Jesus were very different but you look at the fruit and what they both are able to produce despite their differences. Science and Religion both produce good fruit even if for some they are very different. For other like me I have no problem to reconcile their differences.

Firstly, you can't even show me that the spiritual exists.

Secondly, you are assuming the very thing that you wish to demonstrate. That is not the way to reach the truth.

 

[Kylie]

The Bible represents the heart and the emotions. Science represents the mind and intellect. In some ways the primitive brain at the core is better then the advanced brain that has evolved on the outside of the primitive brain. But they can be hard and difficult to reconcile. Then on top of that you do not want to even get into how male and female have been split and are trying to be united back together again. What happens when the male wants to represent the mind and the intellect and the women wants to represent love and the emotions? Or the other way around as you are trying to represent science and the intellect and the advanced brain and you say you have a conflict with emotions, love, religion and the more primitive brain. Yet you need to reconcile them and turn your stumbling blocks into stepping stones.

You have not convinced me that emotions are a representation of the Bible.

In any case, are you admitting that the Bible is not factual?

The Hebrews by the way give us our religion and the Greeks gave us science.
Look at how extreme the conflict was at the time of the Holocaust during WW2 in Germany.

And yet, I've never heard of anyone committing genocide in the name of science.

 

[AV1611VET]

If these things are written in the Bible, then why is it that no one ever discovers these amazing things through Biblical study? You would think that if there really were so many truths in there that surely someone would have got at least one of them by now!

Let me repeat myself.

God did not embed Easter eggs into his creation, then tell us where they were.

Science is like an Easter egg hunt, and God says ...

Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

When a discovery is made, glory and honor come together.

 

[Kylie]

Let me repeat myself.

God did not embed Easter eggs into his creation, then tell us where they were.

Science is like an Easter egg hunt, and God says ...

Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

When a discovery is made, glory and honor come together.

So then, whenever science makes a discovery and everyone interprets a particular passage from the Bible to agree with what science has discovered, you think those Bible-interpreters are just wrong?

 

[AV1611VET]

So then, whenever science makes a discovery and everyone interprets a particular passage from the Bible to agree with what science has discovered, you think those Bible-interpreters are just wrong?

KTS, I don't know what you're driving at here; so let's use an easy example, shall we?

The Bible says:

Zechariah 12:1a The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens,

What does God mean by "stretcheth forth the heavens"?

Back then, they may have not know what it meant.

But in due time, this Easter egg would become clear.

It means that outer space is expanding, and God did it.

Thus science is agreeing with the Bible here that the universe is expanding; and the Bible is agreeing with science that the universe is expanding.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

If the eyeball was not perfectly shaped there would be at the most a blur and nothing for the cones and rods inside the eye to sense and report to the mind.

Of course, where this line of reasoning falls down is that many humans do have misshapen eyes which enable them to only see a blur. This is why glasses and contact lenses are so commonplace - they correct for this deficiency.

 

[rockytopva]

You will never convince me that the eye is something that has evolved...

Cornea - Transparent layer that covers the front of the eye. Must be lubricated with an organic chemistry to keep from drying out.
Lens - Bends and refracts light
Ciliary muscle - Provides focus
Aqueous humour - Fluid that holds a proper pressure and provides nutrients for the cornea and lens
Optic nerve - Takes information from the rods and cones and sends it to the mind.

The mind takes signals from the eye and builds a structure of reality...

22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness! - Matthew 6

And to describe the metaphors behind this scripture...

1. Eye - In this case your imagination
2. Single - Focused in on a mission or a life's direction
3. Light - If the imagination is good - The whole body is full of light (in this case faith, hope, charity, joy)
4. Evil - Focused on evil imaginations
5. Darkness - The opposite of spiritual light - fear, depression, hatred, sorrow

All of which takes an incredible amount of input and processing. If the eyeball was not perfectly shaped there would be at the most a blur and nothing for the cones and rods inside the eye to sense and report to the mind.

I say! It takes a lot of processing for an imagination to come to reality!

1. The mind must take what is sensed and build a sense of reality around it
2. That which is received of the rods and cones must be stored in visual memory banks and reasoned by conscience thought
3. With deep conscience thought also comes habits/instincts/personality traits/goals/ dreams

To create a single movie in computer standards takes in the neighborhood of giga-bytes of storage and a processor and software to make sense of the giga-bytes of storage. It has also taken decades of human reasoning to come up with the computer hardware to accomplish such a feat. The humming bird can...

1. Exist off flower nectar year round
2. Remember the source of nectar thousand of miles away
3. Navigate long distances without a GPS
4. Travel up to 500 miles a day while beating their wings 50 times a second
5. Reason how and where to nest and raise baby hummingbirds.

All with a mind a little bigger than a bb!

 

[Black Dog]

I say! It takes a lot of processing for an imagination to come to reality!

1. The mind must take what is sensed and build a sense of reality around it
2. That which is received of the rods and cones must be stored in visual memory banks and reasoned by conscience thought
3. With deep conscience thought also comes habits/instincts/personality traits/goals/ dreams

To create a single movie in computer standards takes in the neighborhood of giga-bytes of storage and a processor and software to make sense of the giga-bytes of storage. It has also taken decades of human reasoning to come up with the computer hardware to accomplish such a feat. The humming bird can...

1. Exist off flower nectar year round
2. Remember the source of nectar thousand of miles away
3. Navigate long distances without a GPS
4. Travel up to 500 miles a day while beating their wings 50 times a second
5. Reason how and where to nest and raise baby hummingbirds.

All with a mind a little bigger than a bb!

Evolution is amazing, no doubt about that.

 

[rockytopva]

Evolution is amazing, no doubt about that.

The screen you are looking at just didn't 'evolve.' It took reasoning and intelligent design to build and come into reality.

 

[Black Dog]

The screen you are looking at just didn't 'evolve.' It took reasoning and intelligent design to build and come into reality.

You are correct. I can visit the factory where it was built, or find the plans on the internet. Heck, I could spend some time at school, and design one myself.

 

[Kylie]

KTS, I don't know what you're driving at here; so let's use an easy example, shall we?

The Bible says:

Zechariah 12:1a The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens,

What does God mean by "stretcheth forth the heavens"?

Back then, they may have not know what it meant.

But in due time, this Easter egg would become clear.

It means that outer space is expanding, and God did it.

Thus science is agreeing with the Bible here that the universe is expanding; and the Bible is agreeing with science that the universe is expanding.

WHat I am driving at is quite clear.

If that passage refers to the expansion of the universe, why is it that no one EVER said, "The universe must be expanding, it says so right here in this Bible passage"?

 

[AV1611VET]

If that passage refers to the expansion of the universe, why is it that no one EVER said, "The universe must be expanding, it says so right here in this Bible passage"?

First of all, how do you know no one EVER said that?

Second of all, I've explained why it wasn't considered by the scientific elite of the times.

In fact, I think I've explained it about twice to you.

 

[rockytopva]

I believe that the universe is about 15 billions years old and is the result and in response to Lucifer's rebellion.

If... E = mc2 ... Then m (matter) = E/c2 (energy)

Therefore, for the big boom to have occurred the matter had to have been there before the light and energy (E/c2), as the scripture says...

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. - Genesis 1:2
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. - Genesis 1:3

I would imagine, with these words... 'Let there be light (Genesis 1:3)', that the earth (the mass) turned into energy and light (E/c2) and expanded out from a point of origin, turning into what solar systems the Father willed it to. So the plasma (E/c2) is actually mass that has changed state.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. - Genesis 1:4,5

I believe that 15 billion years took place between Genesis 1:3 and Genesis 1:4. God divided the light and the darkness by putting the earth in orbit around the sun thus creating the first day of the Earth's creation. But... The universe was created 15 billion years (give or take a few billion years) before that. Our God is an eternal being. 15 billion years between Genesis 1:3 and Genesis 1:5 is no big deal for him. I believe that God gave Lucifer free run of this known universe... But Lucifer's time is growing short. I think also, in 15 billion years, many of the fallen angels have lost track and forgotten their original state. The hearts are hopelessly hardened and quite evil!

 

[rockytopva]

I believe that God the Father is E/c2... Or plasma energy...

For our God is a consuming fire. (E/c2 plasma) - Hebrews 12:29

And that he is going to take the E/c2 that has went into the creation of the universe and dissociate it from mass to plasma...

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. - 2 Peter 3:10

All of the universe will become from mass into a state of plasma... God will take that plasma and cool it into a new heaven and a new earth...

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. - Isaiah 65:17

And Peter says...

Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? - 2 Peter 3:12

As the size of the universe is immense the great dis-association will be a sight to see! And as a great deal of energy and light went into the creation so the next heaven and earth will be glorious!

 

[rockytopva]

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. - James 1:17

I have done a more in depth study on E/c2 here... http://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-philosophy-of-spiritual-light.7879786/ I am a Lab Technician and operate spectrometers. As we excite matter we can measure wavelengths of light! And then determine chemical composition of cations. Whenever you excite an atom he will release a wavelength of light... The same E/c2 that went into his creation!

Great Father of lights shine down on me! Hallelujah!

 

[Kylie]

First of all, how do you know no one EVER said that?

Oh come on. It's bad enough that dad thinks that "You can't prove it isn't, so maybe it is" is a good argument, don't you start.

Second of all, I've explained why it wasn't considered by the scientific elite of the times.

In fact, I think I've explained it about twice to you.

Because they didn't know what it meant? Like you claimed in post 185? Then doesn't that reduce it to a bunch of words with a vague meaning that can be interpreted in whatever way you want to fit what science discovers? How then can you claim that the information is in the Bible at all?

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

This:

Therefore, for the big boom to have occurred the matter had to have been there before the light and energy (E/c2)

Does not follow from this:

If... E = mc2 ... Then m (matter) = E/c2 (energy)

 

[rockytopva]

What do you get when you split an atom? Energy and light! The same energy and light that went into its creation!

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

What do you get when you split an atom? Energy and light! The same energy and light that went into its creation!

"c" is the speed of light, not "light". There's an explanation of how the equation is derived here

 

[rockytopva]

But light is in the equation. Split an atom and you will see.