The Creationist Corner

[Job8]

But when you turn your own logic towards the Creator then doesn't it demand that he himself had to be created by a greater intelligence?

He has always been and will always be self-existent. That's the beauty of the Creator, and that's the reason He is the Creator, and not the created one. All intelligence and all wisdom resides in Him from eternity past. And if that is a mystery, then that is what is is meant to be -- the Mystery of God. People love mysteries, but they do not care for the Mystery of God, because it leads to the Mystery of Godliness -- Christ.

 

[joshua 1 9]

There are numerous simple and complex contradictions within the Bible.

I can show them too you if you like.

Of course you can. All you have to do is dial up skeptic dot com and you will find all kinds of attempts at leading people astray from the truth. That is what the apostasy is all about. People that want to follow Satan in his rebellion against God and take as many people as he can into the pits of hell.

 

[Job8]

There are no myths in the Bible. There is one creation account, not two. Genesis two begins with Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. How, then, could it be a creation account? It is not. It is the beginning of the history of man. Perhaps you should learn something about the Scriptures if your intent here is to attack them.

People are willing to accept a Prologue in books of fiction, but they can't figure out a Prologue in Scripture. Genesis chapter one is a succinct overview, whereas Genesis 2 and 3 focus on man, since man was created in the image and likeness of God.

 

[joshua 1 9]

But when you turn your own logic towards the Creator then doesn't it demand that he himself had to be created by a greater intelligence?

God is outside of time. He can go anyplace, anywhere in the past, present or the future. So He does not have a beginning and a end the way we do.

 

[joshua 1 9]

I think the idea of thinking of life as having distinct, clearly-delineated "stages" is rather simplistic and not supported by observational data.

I am a dispensationalist. If you do not accept dispensationalism then we do not have enough common ground to even have a conversation. It would be like one of us is playing hockey and the other one is playing baseball.

 

[Kylie]

There is no contradiction between the Bible and Science. The Bible was scientifically accurate when it was written. Abraham and Moses had the best most advanced education you could get in their day. The Bible continues to be accurate today.

So there is nothing in the Bible which contradicts modern scientific knowledge?

Is the mustard seed the smallest seed, as described in Mark 4:31? Because says says otherwise. A mustard seed is 1-2 mm in size. The seeds of the coral-root orchid (Corallorhiza maculata) are about a fifth of that size, 0.2 mm (SOURCE). Is the Bible right, or is science which can actually observe these smaller seeds and measure them right?

I think reality comes up the winner here.

 

[Kylie]

What two creation myths?

Genesis 1, where God makes the animals and then makes man and woman at the same time, and then Genesis 2, where God makes man, creates the animals as companions, but when Adam doesn't find them satisfactory, God then creates Eve.

So was it animals, man/woman, or was it man, animals, woman?

 

[Kylie]

I note that your post didn't include any specific examples of new traits evolving from animals that previously had no such traits. That's because there are none. Irradiating fruit flies was supposed to force increasing complexity in the fruit flies. What did it get? Messed up fruit flies. Although repeated many times over the years, forcing genetic mutations has never resulted in the result that you claim must be the driving force of biology. The problem you have with evolution is that it doesn't happen, has never happened, and cannot happen. It's nothing more than "must have" being passed off as science.

Okay, here you go. Documented cases of evolution using gene duplication.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7896112
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16834-five-classic-examples-of-gene-evolution/
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com...n-frees-up-enzymes-for-molecular-promiscuity/
http://www.umich.edu/~zhanglab/publications/2014/Zhang_Oxford_review.pdf
http://www.genetics.org/content/138/4/1331.full.pdf
http://www.pnas.org/content/102/25/8791.full

These were just some I found on only the first page of a google search on "Examples of gene duplication."

Seriously, are you incapable of basic internet searches?

 

[joshua 1 9]

Genesis 1, where God makes the animals and then makes man and woman at the same time, and then Genesis 2, where God makes man, creates the animals as companions, but when Adam doesn't find them satisfactory, God then creates Eve.

So was it animals, man/woman, or was it man, animals, woman?

In Gen ch 1 God uses evolution to create man as a food gather. He is given all the earth. In Gen Ch 2 man becomes a food producer. This takes place 6,000 years ago in the Furtile Crescent in the Tigris Euphrates river valley in what is now modern day Iraq. So Chapter one covers 13 Billion years. Chapter 2 covers the last 6,000 years. (Actually the last 1300 years. We are very close to the 1000 year reign of Christ.)

 

[Kylie]

Let's make this really simple. You purchase a box of LEGO pieces and let them sit somewhere. What is the probability that they will arrange themselves into any kind of structure? On the other hand, you put the structure together and invite a friend and ask "Did someone build that, or did it just come together by happenstance?" You already know the answer.

So what? Lego blocks are not analogous to life, are they? They do not undergo chemical reactions, nor are they being moved about while sitting on the floor.

So the fact that a creature like the hummingbird exists should cause any rational, intelligent person to ask the question "How could such a creature come about without a Creator?" And there you have your answer. And then you look around all of creation, all of the creatures, and how they function, and all the heavenly bodies, and how they function, and the only LOGICAL explanation is the existence of the Creator.

Argument from incredulity. This is a logical fallacy. Besides, the pocket watch argument has been debunked countless times. I see no reason why I should debunk it again just because you don't want to critically examine your position.

An atheist is one who denies reality, and lives in a fantasy of his own making, in which he considers himself to be far superior to those poor deluded mortals who believe in God and the Lord Jesus Christ. It is not enough to simply believe in the Creator. Unless one fully believes that the Creator also became our Savior, he continues in his delusions.

WOah, even if I granted the first part of this paragraph (which I don't), you;ve made a mighty big leap from arguing for a creator to concluding that the creator MUST be the Christian god! Let's say I buy your watchmaker argument. How can you demonstrate to me that it can only apply to Yahweh and not Thor? I'm more inclined to go for Thor. He's much better looking! (Besdies, Thor promised to get rid of the ice giants, and I don't see any ice giants around).

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

There's something I heard once about giraffes, but I can't remember what it is beyond that it reveals a supreme logic fail to the notions that evolutionists generally attribute to their long necks.
I'll have to revisit that.

Also, the pigments of parrots- they shouldn't have the type they have by all evolutionary accounts. As far as I know, not only did the jury not come back on that, but there is no jury period. They left that one for the birds
#puns

 

[Kylie]

In Gen ch 1 God uses evolution to create man as a food gather. He is given all the earth. In Gen Ch 2 man becomes a food producer. This takes place 6,000 years ago in the Furtile Crescent in the Tigris Euphrates river valley in what is now modern day Iraq. So Chapter one covers 13 Billion years. Chapter 2 covers the last 6,000 years. (Actually the last 1300 years. We are very close to the 1000 year reign of Christ.)

Most of that diagram is completely irrelvant to the creation of animals and man.

I'll tell you what. Can you create for me a list of events in chronological order detailing the creation of the universe, including the creation of animals and the creation of people) which is in complete agreement with Genesis 1 and Genesis 2?

If you do so, I will admit that the creation story in the Bible is entirely self consistent.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Let's make this really simple. You purchase a box of LEGO pieces and let them sit somewhere. What is the probability that they will arrange themselves into any kind of structure? On the other hand, you put the structure together and invite a friend and ask "Did someone build that, or did it just come together by happenstance?" You already know the answer.

I was amazed at all the neat stuff my nephew built out of Legos. Then one day I went to the toy store and realize that legos come as a set. My sister was spending a lot of money buying those lego sets for her son. He was not designing those fancy airplanes the person that built the legos designed the plane and put all the peices in the set in the box for my nephew to come along and assemble. God designs all the pieces and then they get assembled into what God intended for them to be.

Of course if you took all those legos apart and threw them into a box people would have no idea that they were designed and manufactured to be a part of a set and not just random building pieces. If you go to garage sales sometimes you can but lots and lots of what is now random lego pieces that were a part of a set when they were manufactured.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Most of that diagram is completely irrelvant to the creation of animals and man.

I'll tell you what. Can you create for me a list of events in chronological order detailing the creation of the universe, including the creation of animals and the creation of people) which is in complete agreement with Genesis 1 and Genesis 2?

If you do so, I will admit that the creation story in the Bible is entirely self consistent.

The question for science is how did man go from a food gathering to food producing. From camping to building cities. We are talking about the dawn of civilization. This is the beginning of written history and we can read documents that go back 3500 years and further. The problem is to understand what we are reading. Real science would not mock artifacts they way some people here do.

The Bible was actually written on paper like scrolls, but we have clay tablets that go back a lot further then the Bible.

 

[joshua 1 9]

So there is nothing in the Bible which contradicts modern scientific knowledge?

Is the mustard seed the smallest seed, as described in Mark 4:31? Because says says otherwise. A mustard seed is 1-2 mm in size. The seeds of the coral-root orchid (Corallorhiza maculata) are about a fifth of that size, 0.2 mm (SOURCE). Is the Bible right, or is science which can actually observe these smaller seeds and measure them right?

I think reality comes up the winner here.

When looking at what exactly is being said in the verse it is clear that the subject is the mustard tree, as an herb. Therefore, the mustard seed IS the smallest seed; "among the herbs"! We are talking about the seeds that people actually plant in their field in that part of the world to grow food.

 

[rockytopva]

I do a lot of traveling. While flying my nose is normally pressed against a window looking at the geography. I have also been to about 40 of the 50 states. I normally have a pretty good sense of direction. There are times when I hike in these Virginian mountains that I have lost my sense of direction. With my head below the tree line it is hard to make sense of where you are at. I have never been lost but I also seldom return the expected route. I normally find the road within a couple of miles from my expected journey's end.

The humming bird amazes me in that...

1. It's mind is very small
2. It can sense out sources of nectar very quickly
3. As it flies more like the bee rather than gliding like an eagle it burns a great deal of energy.
4. This bird will hang around these mountains until mid-October.
5. The flight down to Mexico / the Caribbean is a long one!
6. These birds are not social and do not fly in flocks.
7. A hummingbird can only perch. It cannot hop or walk making more dependency on its energy using wings.
8. The bee-hummingbird only grows a little more than 2" long.
9. Hummingbirds only fly about 25 mph.
10. A hummingbird's heart rate is 1,200 beats a minute.
11. Hummingbirds can fly up to 500 miles nonstop.
12. Hummingbirds take about 250 breaths a minute.

A hummingbird has a wonderful sense of sight.

1. The body has to generate the organic chemistry to prevent dry-eye
2. The eye geometry has to be perfect for them to focus in on their surroundings
3. The visual memory banks in the mind have a lot of information to process as they hunt nectar, migrate, and mate!

It is an amazing bird once you get studying it!

 

[Kylie]

The question for science is how did man go from a food gathering to food producing. From camping to building cities. We are talking about the dawn of civilization. This is the beginning of written history and we can read documents that go back 3500 years and further. The problem is to understand what we are reading. Real science would not mock artifacts they way some people here do.

The Bible was actually written on paper like scrolls, but we have clay tablets that go back a lot further then the Bible.

I'm not asking what science says, and I'm not asking you to do anything with the claims science makes.

I'm asking you what the Bible says.

 

[Kylie]

When looking at what exactly is being said in the verse it is clear that the subject is the mustard tree, as an herb. Therefore, the mustard seed IS the smallest seed; "among the herbs"! We are talking about the seeds that people actually plant in their field in that part of the world to grow food.

There's nothing in there that requires the mustard seed to be a herb. Yes, it does say that it will be "greater than all the herbs." But that doesn't mean that mustard IS a herb. It's like how I can say that I am taller than any student in my daughter's class, but that doesn't mean that I AM a student in my daughter's class.

In any case, even if we only count the herbs, then mustard is still not the smallest seed. A herb is defined as any plant used for flavouring, food, perfume or medicine (source). By this definition, vanilla, which comes from an orchid, is also a herb, and I've shown sources that orchid seeds are much smaller than mustard seeds.

What about the claim that mustard is the greatest of all herbs? Actually, the banana is the largest herb alive. So I guess the Biblical claim fails there too.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

OH MY HEAVENS!!! A bacteria added citrus to its diet. This is the best you can do?
I guess this means you have nothing.

It's an example of exactly what you asked for - a "specific example[...] of [a] new trait[...] evolving from [an] animal[...] that previously had no such trait[...]". That's not "nothing", it's exactly the evidence that you said did not exist. It's up to you whether you ignore this evidence, whether you dismiss it unthinkingly, or whether you actually think about it. Which ever of those your choose is entirely your choice.

By the way, have you seen anyone giving birth to babies with leaves instead of hair? If humans share the same ancestry as trees, them we should still have that genetic information in our DNA.

If I, my parents and my grandparents all have blonde hair, does that mean that the fact that my cousin is a redhead because of the genes she inherited from her mother who is not a blood relation to me mean that any baby I have with my blonde wife is likely to inherit my cousin's red hair? If you believe that the answer is "yes", or you don't see how the situation I've explained is directly analogous to the question you've asked, then you need to educate yourself on the basics of evolutionary theory.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Genesis two begins with Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. How, then, could it be a creation account? It is not.

Genesis 2:4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, when the Lord God made the earth and the heavens

Your claim that the account beginning at Genesis 2:4 is not a creation account contradicts the text of the Bible itself.