The Creation Took SIX LITERAL DAYS - Discuss

[Vance]

What we know of God comes from scripture, not other men's fanciful imaginations whether it be creationism or evolution. Very presumptous indeed I would say that you would use Dr. Dino as a representative and a spokesman for all creationist - forgetting that foremost he represents himself.

Well, I don't think God came from Scripture, I believe Scripture came from God.

And where did I say Hovind was a spokesman for all Creationists?

I do agree, however, that he represents himself foremost.

 

[Bushido216]

Can a God fearing, bible believing, spiritually dogmatic, young earth creationist jump in or is this discussion private?

There is nothing wrong with what you see, for there is no mention of other children born of Adam and Eve other than Cain and Able and yet what did Cain fear of after he had slain his brother? He feared being slain by others for what he had done. I wonder what or who he feared? Perhaps other men?

Although scripture does not say specifically anything about Adam and Eve's other children there is no reason not to assume that they would not of had other children after Cain and Able as Genesis 5:4 tells us: "And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:"

And since humans can breed only with humans, it is safe to assume that Cain's wife was one of his sisters - even if he was much older (after all they did live to be hundreds of years old. And no it would not be incest as it was not until the time of Moses when God ordered that close relations could no longer marry.

But that's my point. Cain goes from being a strong 33% of the human population to some unknown amount?

And Cain has relations with his wife before Adam has more relations.

http://usccb.org/nab/bible/genesis/genesis4.htm

Gen 4:17 & 25

 

[Vance]

On the Cain marrying his sister issue, please see my OP in the following thread:

http://www.christianforums.com/t55680

 

[Crusadar]

To address whether or not it is reasonable to say that Cain married his sister, or maybe even his niece we would need to take into consideration that no information is given as to the exact age of either brother when the murder took place. Scripture plainly says it happened at the “end of days.”

It is incorrect to assume then that they were in their teens or were even young adults. If they were in their fifties than it would be safe to say that there could already be quite a number of people at the time. We know this because the Scripture does state that Adam and Eve had many more sons and daughters other than Cain and Abel. And also keep in mind that that Genesis gives no clear timeline on how much time went by before Cain met his wife – it only says he did.

Earlier in Genesis 3:16a we are told that God greatly multiplied Eve’s conception, now if I am not mistaken contraceptives are a modern luxury, and to say that Adam abstained from having relations with his wife for how many years or that they were childless for how long now? Scripture also says that Seth was born when Adam was one hundred and thirty years of age and then lived another eight hundred years and begot sons and daughters (any of which could have been Cain's wife).

In Jewish tradition it is believed that Adam had 33 sons and 23 daughters (not all within the same century I hope). The Jewish historian Josephus wrote that, "The number of Adam's children, as says the old tradition, was thirty-three sons and twenty-three daughters." - William Whiston, translator, The Complete Works of Josephus (Grand Rapids, MI: Kregel Publications, 1981), p. 27.

But lets look however on the significance of Cain’s wife being his sister or niece as oppose to being some pre-Adamite race. Scripture tells us that:

“Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed on all men inasmuch as all sinned (Romans 5:12).

We also read in 1 Corinthians 15:45 that Adam was "the first man." It is reasonable to say then that God did not start by making a whole group of men.

Scripture is also very clear that only the descendants of Adam can be saved. Romans chapter 5 tells us that we are sinners as the result of Adam. The death penalty, which Adam received as judgment for his sin of rebellion, has also passed on to all his descendants. Since Adam was the head of the human race when he "fell," we who came from the same gene pool of Adam are sinners also, if we are not all the children descendant of Adam then what does it mean – that we do not need Christ’s redemption since only Adam’s line is in need of redemption.

 

[Buck72]

The literalists are outnumbered three to one on this forum. Probably more like 30 to one in the general population.

Well there you have it, majority rules.

Oh wait....maybe not:

Mat 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

Mat 7:14 "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

* I've just discovered that this quote may be a bit tired in this forum as YEC's argue that "more doesn't mean right". Well, I'd hate to use the same lame-o excuses that my fellow YEC brothers and sisters use.

But then again, if the shoe fits...

 

[Buck72]

Buck, not a single Scripture you cited in your last post precludes evolution as being the *method* by which He did the creating.

I am a Christian. I believe the Bible is wholly true. I believe the earth is billions of years old. I believe that God's Word is the foundation of our Faith. I believe that God used evolution as part of His creative process. I believe in miracles. I believe the flood was local, not global. I believe that God could have created everything by a blink of his eye, but He didn't. None of these are inconsistent to me in the least.

Vance, please show me a SINGLE scripture that supports any hint of evolution. God spoke the cosmos into existence...I see no millions of years, nor evolutionary events of any kind anywhere in scripture and I am ready to find some!

I'm honestly perplexed as to where evolution and scripture form a relationship at all. I am open to the idea if scripture would so much as touch on the subject. This thread is dedicated to the SIX DAY event of Creation because the Scripture speaks it at an elementary level as quoted in post #1.

 

[Buck72]

The Bible may say that Genesis is correct, but it doesn't make it literally correct. A deist approach could very easily be correct. That is, quite frankly, my belief. God created the natural laws, and set them forth in motion. Perhaps he even made sure that we would be created. That, however, does not exclude evolution.

Bushido, your argument is succint, lucid, and makes a very strong point. However, I must contend with the fact that creation is explained in the Genesis account that God made man on the sixth day. Now could that have been millions of years after day one? It could were it not for the whole "morning and evening a fifth day" etc.. part that I documented in post #1 of this thread.

God has used the six day (rest the seventh) based upon His own work schedule during the Creation, even writing it into the Law of Moses.

What we have here is an illustration of two very different worldviews:

1. God created the heavens and the earth in SIX literal days

2. God created the laws of physics, matter, space, and time to forgather
the universe over millions of years to evolve into what we know today.

Both cannot be correct.

Since the fall of man, the commission of the first sin, creation has begun to follow the law of entropy. Things wear out, cool off, slow down, disperse, erode, digress from a state of higher order to a state of lesser order - the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. The curse defines much of why things are the way they are:

Gen 3:6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate Sin, disobedience; and she gave also to her husband with her Sinners love other sinners to sin with them (Rom1:32), and he ate. Gen 3:7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings Religion is often man's effort to self-atone for sin (covering themselves), Christ fulfills this need in Himself.

Gen 3:8 They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden. Gen 3:9 Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, "Where are you?" God knew where Adam was, Adam didn't know where Adam was - this is rhetorical. Gen 3:10 He said, "I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself." Gen 3:11 And He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?" Ouch!

Gen 3:12 The man said, "The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me from the tree, and I ate." Shifting blame, very common today - failure to own up to responsibility. Guilt does that to a person. Gen 3:13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" And the woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate." Ah, once again.

Gen 3:14 The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, Cursed are you more than all cattle, And more than every beast of the field; On your belly you will go, And dust you will eat All the days of your life; Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed (the first prophecy of Christ); He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel." Gen 3:16 To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you."
Gen 3:17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife (gents, we could have fun with this one) and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life. Gen 3:18 "Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field; Gen 3:19 By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return." Why we have jobs.

Gen 3:20 Now the man called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all the living. Gen 3:21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them. God made atonment (covering) for their sins. An animal had to die to accomplish this.

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

 

[Buck72]

There is nothing wrong with what you see, for there is no mention of other children born of Adam and Eve other than Cain and Able

Crusadar - Welcome to the discussion, I'm glad you're here!

I do ask that you re-check Genesis 5. Adam and Eve had many other children:

Gen 5:3 When Adam had lived one hundred and thirty years, he became the father of a son in his own likeness, according to his image, and named him Seth. Gen 5:4 Then the days of Adam after he became the father of Seth were eight hundred years, and he had other sons and daughters.

 

[Vance]

Vance, please show me a SINGLE scripture that supports any hint of evolution. God spoke the cosmos into existence...I see no millions of years, nor evolutionary events of any kind anywhere in scripture and I am ready to find some!

I'm honestly perplexed as to where evolution and scripture form a relationship at all. I am open to the idea if scripture would so much as touch on the subject. This thread is dedicated to the SIX DAY event of Creation because the Scripture speaks it at an elementary level as quoted in post #1.

Well, that is annoying. I had a detailed answer to this, but it got lost in the ether and I simply don't have the energy to do it all over. Please refer to the many other threads on this topic for the alternate view.

But the quick response:

1. There are, necessarily, aspects of God's Creation which are not expressly set out in Scripture. This does not mean they did not happen.

2. The reference to "the earth brought forth" is considered by many to be a very good synopsis of evolution.

3. God speaking things into existence does not preclude the process taking billions of years. He speaks, the Big Bang happens, things go from there. And you will notice that not all things were "spoken" into existence. Why not?

4. It is more likely that our human interpretation of Scripture is faulty than our understanding of God's Creation.

5. Hopefully, the segment of the Church holding onto YEC'ism will learn from the example of Geocentrism: Man's interpretation of Scripture is fallible and secular science can actually be correct when thought to be contrary to Scripture.

 

[Crusadar]

Crusadar - Welcome to the discussion, I'm glad you're here!

I do ask that you re-check Genesis 5. Adam and Eve had many other children:

Gen 5:3 When Adam had lived one hundred and thirty years, he became the father of a son in his own likeness, according to his image, and named him Seth. Gen 5:4 Then the days of Adam after he became the father of Seth were eight hundred years, and he had other sons and daughters.

Glad to see another true follower of Christ standing firm on the solid rock of God's word.

I am aware that Adam had sons and daughters, the statement was made as a reference to the time frame preceding the murder of Abel and not what scripture says after the birth of Seth. The basis of the argument was that without any other children mentioned before the murder of Abel, Cain's wife could not have been one of his sisters since Cain and Abel were the only two children at the time - which leads many to the erroneous conclusion that the wife of Cain was not one of his sisters, but a descendant of a pre Adamite race.

 

[Vance]

Glad to see another true follower of Christ standing firm on the solid rock of God's word.

Buck, this is an example of the type of insinuation I was referring to, that those of us who do not believe as Crusader does are not "true followers of Christ" and are not "standing frim on God's Word". You see now what I was talking about. Actually, you should also be aware that such insinuations are a violation of the very first rule of this forum.

 

[Crusadar]

Well, I don't think God came from Scripture, I believe Scripture came from God.

I said that what we believe about God comes from reading scripture, and nothing about scripture being God.

How ironic, you believe scripture came from God, and yet you don't believe what it says.

 

[Vance]

I said that what we believe about God comes from reading scripture, and nothing about scripture being God.

How ironic, you believe scripture came from God, and yet you don't believe what it says.

Ah, I misread you on the first point.

But on the second point, you are yet again proving my point to Buck about Young Earth Creationists making presumptuous (and incorrect) statements about the beliefs of other Christians. Buck, take note again.

I can understand how useful it would be to believe that those who disagree with you on these issues simply don't "believe the Bible", since that makes it all so simple. But it is not true, and I think you really know it down deep. I have expressed on numerous occasions, and do so now, that I believe that the Bible is God's Word and I believe everything it is telling us. I just think that when it comes to "what God is telling us", you are getting it wrong.

 

[Buck72]

Buck, this is an example of the type of insinuation I was referring to, that those of us who do not believe as Crusader does are not "true followers of Christ" and are not "standing frim on God's Word". You see now what I was talking about. Actually, you should also be aware that such insinuations are a violation of the very first rule of this forum.

Excellent point Vance! You are right on target here. No one should insinuate lack of salvation or disqualification of the faith solely based on our understanding of the Creation. Thanks be to God that He does not base our value on that either!


All of us, from the greatest minds of science and theology will, along with the simple, fall to our faces when we see our Creator at the end of the Age. There will be no one that elbows his brother (like we do here) and says: "Ah, see! I told you it was six days, (or millions of years), etc.." We'll all be on our faces in shock that He would save such wretchedness! Notice the prophets when they saw the Lord all trembled and fell on their face crying out for their sinfulness - Holiness will do that, which is why most unbelievers are afraid to come to the Lord to begin with.


We are all equally frail and foolish before our God, which is why He demands that we deal with other in humility - we're saved by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves...it is the gift of God lest any of us should boast! (Eph 2:8)

1Co 1:20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?


Jer 9:23 Thus says the LORD, "Let not a wise man boast of his wisdom, and let not the mighty man boast of his might, let not a rich man boast of his riches;

Jer 9:24 but let him who boasts boast of this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the LORD who exercises lovingkindness, justice and righteousness on earth; for I delight in these things," declares the LORD.

Rom 11:33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways!

Rom 11:34 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR?

Now, what we do have is the Word, and I will continue to plead this case within the halls of this forum that evolutionists MUST not quickly disregard the specifics detailed in scripture about the Creation, and the Flood. I'll appeal to both scripture and science for the flood in my next post as soon as the Lord provides the time to do so! For now, please consider the value of the scripture and the faith required of believers to actually BELIEVE:

Joh 4:41 Many more believed because of His word;

Joh 4:50 Jesus *said to him, "Go; your son lives." The man believed the word that Jesus spoke to him and started off.

Joh 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Joh 5:38 "You do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent.

Joh 8:31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;

Joh 8:43 "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.

Joh 12:48 "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

Pro 13:13 The one who despises the word will be in debt to it, But the one who fears the commandment will be rewarded.

Joh 14:24 "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father's who sent Me.

Joh 17:6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.

Joh 17:17 "Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.

 

[Buck72]

Matthew 19:4 poses an interesting point:

Mat 19:4 And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE,

Notice that He created man in the BEGINNING. Where is evolution?

Man brought death into the world - not evolution

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

How could anything have died before man, before the fall, before sin entered into the world?

What is at stake is not evolution vs. Creation. What is at stake is the credibility of Jesus! He quoted Genesis 25 times!

Joh 5:46-47 "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. "But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

 

[Sinai]

My argument is simply why buy the human conclusion and dismiss the Divine Conclusion?

Unfortunately, however, the alleged conflict generally tends to be between the human conclusion about what the natural and scientific evidence means versus the human conclusion about what particular human interpretations of certain scriptures mean. For example, many of the arguments made in this forum appear to have been made by persons who apparently have relied upon something they heard someone say or something they read on a website--and failed to check the actual sources.

Thus, it is rather common for evolutionists to lump all creationists together when making claims or counterclaims that generally pertain only to a small spectrum of persons who believe that God created the universe, all matter and time itself ("in the beginning").

And it is just as common for some creationists to attempt to support their position by stating emphatically that the Bible says something and that anyone who disagrees is at odds with the word of God--when the truth is that that is only one interpretation of the scripture in question (and very possibly a rather unlikely interpretation).

I suggest that if you think that scripture and science seem to be contradicting each other, it is very likely that you either do not understand what science is actually presenting or that you do not fully understand what the Bible may be saying--or both. In other words, it may be time to check both the most credible scientific sources available, and to check what the actual Hebrew or Greek scriptures say--and what the range of meanings is for the words and phrases in question.

Somebody is just plain wrong, and I will bet all I own and the title to my own soul, wife, and firstborn that God is the One who is right. Man has a tendency to mess things up pretty badly.

If God is truth, as the Bible declares and I personally believe, then both the word of God and the world of God should be in harmony with each other and should not be contradictory.....

 

[LewisWildermuth]

Matthew 19:4 poses an interesting point:

Mat 19:4 And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE,

Notice that He created man in the BEGINNING. Where is evolution?

Where is gravity? If God used evolution to create life wouldn't that still be creation? And if it is creation wouldn't it begin somewhere?

Man brought death into the world - not evolution

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

How could anything have died before man, before the fall, before sin entered into the world?

If the price of sin is physical death and Jesus died to forgive us and spare us from paying the price of our sins why are we still dying? Could it be that the price of sin was spiritual death?

What is at stake is not evolution vs. Creation. What is at stake is the credibility of Jesus! He quoted Genesis 25 times!

Joh 5:46-47 "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. "But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

No, what is at stake here is the credibility of a over literalistic interpretation of bits and pieces of the Bible, and the people who put this issue up as a salvation issue.

 

[Vance]

Right, Lewis and Sanai both. On the point of death before the Fall, I find it difficult from Scripture to see how it *could* be physical death that Paul is referring to. As was pointed out, if Paul was referring to physical death, then Jesus' sacrifice has failed since we still physically die.

On the issue of God creating Man "in the beginning", even Genesis belies that if you want to read it literally, since Man was not created on the very first "yom". If it is true that he was not created in the VERY beginning, then that Scripture must mean something else.

 

[Crusadar]

Ah, I misread you on the first point.

But on the second point, you are yet again proving my point to Buck about Young Earth Creationists making presumptuous (and incorrect) statements about the beliefs of other Christians. Buck, take note again.

I can understand how useful it would be to believe that those who disagree with you on these issues simply don't "believe the Bible", since that makes it all so simple. But it is not true, and I think you really know it down deep. I have expressed on numerous occasions, and do so now, that I believe that the Bible is God's Word and I believe everything it is telling us. I just think that when it comes to "what God is telling us", you are getting it wrong.

What seems to be the problem vance, it isn't anything you haven't heard before is it? If it bothers you so much perhaps there may be some truth in it, after all we are commanded to live not by bread alone but by every word of God as Matthew 4:4 tells us – and it is what your so called literalist are doing.

No one is saying that belief in creation or evolution matters for salvation. What does matter is that we believe in a consistent God who does not deceive those who believe Him by meaning something else when it is plainly written.

By thy way no one is accusing anyone of not being Christian - least of all you. You should be confident if you are or are not by the fruits that you are producing. However as I have said often enough - everyone has their own comfort level with Christianity as some are simply willing to stick their necks out further for the truth of God – even if it means being ridiculed or persecuted.

But I guess some are simply content staying within their zone of Christian comfort – for true faith in God is not simply wallowing in emotions but standing firm in all that the word of God says, suffering thus for Christ.

For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. Matthew 16:25

What you seem to be confused with is that when a person simply accepts Christ as Lord and Savior it does not guarantee them salvation – on rare occasions perhaps which are the exceptions and not the rule. We however are not the exceptions, and must carry each our own cross.

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. Matthew 16:24

And what is this denial of self? That we give ourselves to Christ wholeheartedly, putting all our trust in God, and what He says – no matter what adversities we may face because of it – not compromise it to live in harmony with the fanciful evolutionary imaginations of man.

 

[Vance]

But you fail to acknowledge the dangers of how YEC'ism is often taught. I can tell you from personal experience that VERY OFTEN it is taught that if you believe in evolution or an old earth, you are not accepting the truth of God's Word. Thus, if you do truly believe in evolution or an old earth and can not accept that evolution is false and the earth is young, you might as well not believe in the Bible at all. I have personally seen many youth lose their Faith over this very point and directly because of this presentation. Some on this board have acknowledged that they came VERY close to losing their faith because they had been taught this "all or nothing" approach and were only kept from abandoning Christianity by finding out that you *could* believe in evolution and still be a Bible-believing, born-again, Spirit-filled Christian.

This is why I take this matter so seriously. I know that souls are being lost to the Kingdom because of the dogmatic teaching of YEC'ism. This is not insecurity, it is evangelism of the truest sort: preventing souls from being lost.