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The creation of Adam and Evolution

Sumeria

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I have a question - can you describe the salient points of the video in your own words, and what you think is the most interesting, relevant, or important point or argument you'd like to make about it?

Dr Darin Smith, a member of "Ansar Imam Mahdi" discusses the book "Atheism Delusion" by our leader Ahmed al-Hasan a.s.

All religions agree that Adam and Eve were the first creations on Earth, but Science today has proven with highest precision that Evolution is truth and a fact, so it is very easy for scientific atheists do disprove this theory, that Adam was the first man on Earth. So we have the very important question which is did religious scholars misinterpret the religious scriptures? Ahmed al-Hasan a.s. in the book has explained that Evolution disproves the belief of the Jewish, Christians and Muslims Scholars and their followers that man suddenly appears.

The Household of Prophet Muhammad pbuhap talked about the Nisnas (human like beings) before Adam:

From book "Atheism Delusion" by Ahmed al-Hasan a.s. - Pages 132 and 133:

"The religious texts not only agree with biology and modern science, but they have also mentioned concious life forms, some of which are known today through fossils, meaning the human-like beings like some type of Homo Erectus, Homo Sapiens and the Neanderthal. These texts have stated that human like beings existed before humans, and some of them were rational, concious beings, but less so than humans.

(Muhammad ibn Ali al-Baqir pbuh said: Since the creation of the earth, God Almighty has created seven peoples who are not descendants of Adam. He created them from the soil of the earth and caused them to inhabit it, one after the other, each with his own people. Then, God Almighty created the father of this mankind, and He created his offspring from him." Al Sadooq 1982, 359. Arabic source, translated. Also Al-Ayashi 1991, vol. 2, 238.)

This religious account and others indicate that concious, intelligent life forms have evolved on this earth. In this account, there are seven generations that are concious and intelligent, whose souls are different than Adam, who are not from his children, and who preceded him pbuh on this earth.

(The Prince of the Believers, Ali pbuh said: "God Almighty wanted to create a creation with His own hands after 7,000 years of Jinn and Nisnas existing on earth. He wanted to create Adam... I want to create a creature with My hands, and I want to make from his offspring prophets, messengers, righteous servants, and guided Imams, and make them vicegerents among My creation on My earth, who command them against disobeying Me, warn them of My torment, guide them to My obedience, and guide them to the path toward Me. I shall make them Proofs of Mine upon the others, and I will exterminate the Nisnas on My earth and cleanse it of them." Al-Qumi 1983, vol 1, 36. Arabic source, translated.)

This religious account clearly says that before Adam pbuh there were human-like beings on the earth. It is clear that the seven thousand years are not units of measurement familiar to us today. We can imagine different time units of measurement that are not familiar to us, because they are in different dimensions outside of the universe which we live."

We understand from the narrations of the household and family of The Prophet pbuhap about these beings called Nisnas, meaning human like in Arabic. Nowadays we know from Science about Neanderthals and Homo Erectus, and other human like beigns which have been confirmed by the fossil records, which preceded Homo Sapines. Imam Muhammad al-Baqir pbuh and Imam Ali pbuh knew and talked about it over 1000 years ago.

From a part of an interview of Ahmed al-Hasan a.s. from December 2015 on topic of his book:

(Atteen Wal Zaitoun - Host: Perhaps the title of the book points to this, as the book is comprised of two parts: a part that refutes, i.e. “the Atheism delusion” and a part that proves, i.e. “the signs of God in the universe”. The question is, does the rejection you were met with (especially in the Islamic world) account for how much attention you gave to proving the scientific theories first (especially the theory of evolution), or are there different reasons? Especially that the interpretations of some verses in the book become very clear in the light of scientific theories. Here, I’d like to mention the interpretation of verses. Some who try to criticize the book claim these interpretations cannot be used when discussing Atheists. How do you respond to that?

Ahmed Al Hasan: May Allah welcome you. The theory of evolution, there are still some who reject it for religious reasons and no other reasons. I mentioned some evidence for evolution in the book because I believe all people deserve to know the truth as it is, people who still reject it are wrong and they should read more because now evolution is an undoubtable scientific fact, the genetic evidence for it is clear, it is similar to videos or tapes that prove that humans and other beings have common ancestors, whether primates or other beings as you know genetics of beings carry an identical image of that being that matches it 100%. When matching the images of certain creatures we find it to be the ancestor of both chimpanzees and humans. What research and academia has reached is exactly what was reached when astronauts took pictures of the earth revolving from space to resolve once and for all the debate of whether the earth revolves around the sun, nevertheless some people refuse to believe it despite these pictures, e.g. Wahhabi clerics Ibn Uthaimeen for example said the sun revolves around the earth and day and night is caused by the sun revolving around the earth. Ibn Baz said the same, whoever disbelieves in evolution is no better than Wahhabi clerics. I hope that whoever imagines evolution to be untrue to read more. It is not embarrassing to correct your beliefs, what is embarrassing and shameful is to reject science and knowledge and remain in ignorance. Evolution is a certain matter that happened in the past and still happens, it is enough that all universities and research centres consider evolution to be the only explanation for diversity of life forms on earth. As for the verses, you did not mention them, maybe you mean God's saying in Surat Nuh: “He created you in stages.” [71 : Nuh : 14]. And other verses I mentioned in the book; “He caused you to grow from the earth.” [71 : Nuh : 17]. They are clear, God created you in stages, he caused you to grow from the earth. God is talking about the creation of man obviously the verse is saying you are a seed in this earth which grew and produced. We can say this seed is the genes which grew and produced our bodies, I believe there are reasonable people who can benefit from them to know about the truth of religion, but if Atheists reject this interpretation of these clear verses, to me, this matter is up to them. I Don’t force them to accept it. Mic is yours.)

Imam Ahmed al-Hasan pbuh continues in the book to explain to misconception of the "Creationism" belief. He clarifies Adam was not the first creation on earth. Adam had physical parents in this world, but they were not like him. They looked like him but they were not like him, as Adam had the Soul connected to his body. So the Creation in the religious accounts talks about the creation of the Soul of Adam, and from his Soul was created the Soul of Eve, not the physical creation. These Souls were lowered and connected to their physical bodies.

The Truth that is in this Book (Pages 285-286):
(The truth in this book is that the human soul was created from the raised wet clay and the breathing of the spirit that were connected to a material body that evolved on this earth. The first human soul was created in the first heaven and was composed of the wet clay that was raised to it, as well as the breathing of the spirit into it. Thus, the creation of Adam pbuh occurred in the first heaven. If non-believers cannot understand or rationalize the first heaven, we can assume that, according to the multiple universe theory, it exists in a universe parallel to our universe that we now live in. From there, this soul was returned to this material universe we are in through its connection to a body - when it is in the womb - and it is a body like our current bodies. It is no different from us. Thus, the first Man, Adam pbuh, was formed on this earth. The case of Eve pbuh is similar to that of Adam. Mankind reproduced and populated the earth for the first time in a noteworthy, recorded and preserved manner in Summer.
If you cannot understand the connection of the souls that is in a parallel world to the body that is in this world, you can consider it to be like the hypothetical connection between parallel universes and the transfer of a particle or wave between universes.* [*For those who are not familiar with the multiple universe theory, a brief explanation will be offered in this book, InshaAllah]
With respect to the soul of Eve, it was derived from the soul of Adam pbuh:
{O mankind, fear your Lord, who created you from one soul and created from it its mate and dispersed from both of them many men and women. And fear Allah, through whom you ask one another, and the kinship. Indeed Allah is ever an Observer over you} [Quran 4:1]
The Almighty said: {It is He who created you from one soul and created from it its mate that he might live with her. And when he covers her, she carries a light burden and continues therein. And when it becomes heavy, they both invoke Allah, their Lord, "If You should give us a good, we will surely be among the grateful."} Quran 7:189)

The Society of Adam (page 135-136):
(According the the religious scripture, Adam is a prophet. Therefore, if the soul of Adam pbuh connected to a biological body that was among a group lower than it in spiritual advancement, how did he live with them? How did he behave with them? Where did this group go?

The Answer:
It must be known that in order for the soul of Adam to connect to a body, the body must be prepared to receive it. Consequently, the brain must be suitable in size and quality. The size of the brain must be appropriately sufficient for thinking, consciousness and reasoning. This means that the brain would have an avarage size of about 1400 ml, similar to our brains.
That is also the case with respect to quality. Thus, the composition, cells an cortex of a brain this size must have also evolved appropriately.
If this was the case for the group to which Adam phuh was born, then it is certainly an intellectual group capable of consciousness and even mutual understanding. Therefore, as a prophet, Adam pbuh could have been dispatched to a people of God's creation after they came to have the capacity to know God at the level of the message with which Adam was dispatched. Thus, the soul of Adam pbuh was lowered and connected to a body, and he called them to the worship of God Almighty. Afterwards, Adam, his wife, and those who believed and supported them, isolated themselves from the rest of the people, just as Abraham pbuh did when he and his wife isolated themselves and emigrated away from their people, after he had called them to God and was rejected by them. However, God wished for Adam pbuh, his progeny, and his supporters to overcome that group, and for that group to become extinct, even if the extinction happened after a period of time...)

This is the link for the book "Atheism Delusion", it is for free if anyone wishes to look at it: book atheism delusion V01
 
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Sumeria

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Welcome to the board.

Thank you.

Why are Muslims so keen to kill people who do not believe as they do? how would you feel if other people wanted to kill you for not believing as they do?

We are Shia Muslims, followers of the 12 Imams and 12 Mahdis pbut from the progeny of Prophet Mohammed pbuh. The so-called Muslims you are talking about are Wahhabi Salafis. They are different religion from Islam, their religion Wahhabism is the religion of terror. All major designated terrorirst groups in the world are Wahhabi Salafi - Al-Qaeda, ISIS, Boko Haram, etc. This religion Wahhabism originated and was founded by the criminals Abdul Wahhab and Al-Saud. Saudi Arabia is the importer of this religion and every Wahhabi Salafi is a terrorist or a future terrorist. There have been 4 suicide attacks by the Wahhabi Satans in Baghdad in last couple of days targeting Shia Muslims, just because they are Shia Muslims. There was a big terror attack in a Mall in Baghdad in the summer, where 300+ innocent people were killed because they are Shia Muslims.

True Islam is innocent of Wahhabism, true Islam are the Divinely appointed Imams and Guides from the Household of Prophet Mohammed pbuhap. Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib pbuh, the First Imam has said: "People are of two kinds, either your brothers in faith or your equals in humanity."
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Dr Darin Smith, a member of "Ansar Imam Mahdi" discusses the book "Atheism Delusion" by our leader Ahmed al-Hasan a.s.
...
OK, thanks for that. It sounds like an honest attempt to interpret scripture to be compatible with contemporary science, which can only be welcomed. I'd be interested to know the physical formulation for the proposed parallel universe that allows continuous interaction between souls (made of clay?) and the human brain, and the nature of that interaction. This idea does not seem compatible with contemporary science.

There is a factual error that leaps out - the assertion that, "All religions agree that Adam and Eve were the first creations on Earth..." As far as I know, this is only true of the Abrahamic religions, a very small percentage of all religions.
 
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Sumeria

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OK, thanks for that. It sounds like an honest attempt to interpret scripture to be compatible with contemporary science, which can only be welcomed. I'd be interested to know the physical formulation for the proposed parallel universe that allows continuous interaction between souls (made of clay?) and the human brain, and the nature of that interaction. This idea does not seem compatible with contemporary science.

There is a factual error that leaps out - the assertion that, "All religions agree that Adam and Eve were the first creations on Earth..." As far as I know, this is only true of the Abrahamic religions, a very small percentage of all religions.

Yes, my mistake. All Abrahamic religons is correct. :)

Quote:
"Quantum mechanics has already opened the door in cosmology for the ideas of multiple universes that can affect one another. The scope of Quantum entanglement is far greater than a case of two particles emanating from a single source. The entire universe is a quantum event that goes back to a single origin, at the time of big bang. In the past some of the particles were adjacent and adherent to one another. Thus a particle at the extremities of the universe or in the body of another living being was perhaps at some moment adherent to a particle that is in your body right now and you might be affected when it is affected, and likewise you can, in some way affect things via quantum entanglement."

- Ahmed AlHasan

The complete article: book atheism delusion V01

In another book the Imam a.s. has written about the brain:

"We must know how memory and information are [formed] with a human in order to know what results from them, which is forgetting or omission of what is in this memory and information or some of what is in them. Some of the information of a human comes from this physical world through sight and hearing for example. And some comes from the Upper Kingdom of Heaven, and the example of what comes from above is the inspiration to the prophets pbut and the true visions. And this information is imprinted in the page of a human, or you can call it the place of memory or information, and it is in the humane soul (the spirit) and not in the body as many people imagine that it is in the brain. Rather the brain is exactly like a fax machine or a telephone as it is not the place for permanent saving of information, but rather it is a device that transfers information from and to the existence of the human in this physical world. And this information, as long as the person is in this world, is continuously increasing. For example, what you see with your eyes and realize, what you hear with your ears, and what you read are accumulated information in the human soul, and remembering is extracting this information and presenting it to the human in this world whenever he wants that. As for what affects this remembering or collecting an information and extracting it from the memory, they are many things, some of them are: First, The quantity of information. And the effect of the quantity of information on remembering is clear from the reality in which we live. For example, the child’s ability to memorize is far greater than the ability of the adults. And memorizing is nothing but remembering the information. And the reason that the child’s ability to remember is superior is because his memory is almost free of information when he first starts remembering. Therefore, his quantity of information which is accumulated over time is under control in the beginning so it would be easy to sort it and reach the information, unlike the adult who has a massive quantity of information accumulated that is hard to control. And to demonstrate the quantity issue more, I say, if you have something you are searching for, it would be easier to find it if you were searching between ten things rather than searching between a hundred. Second, the quality or type of information, as the simple information is not like the compound and complex information, as the latter may be placed in the memory in an unorganized and random manner as a result of the incomplete comprehension of it. Therefore it will be hard to remember it or extract it in a correct form or with all its components and requirements. Rather even with perceiving it and placing it in an organized and accurate manner, remembering it is still more difficult than with simple information. This is because remembering it requires remembering all its components. Third, the body. And it is a veil which affects the ability of a person to remember and it is like a cover over the information. And this cover becomes thicker the greater the occupation with it [the body] in order to provide it with desires and to push away that which it does not desire. And it lightens as a cover over the information whenever it [the body] is neglected to calculate the concentration on the information, but no matter how neglected it is it remains a cover with an effect, as some things are a necessity such as eating for strength. Fourth, the light and darkness in the soul of a human, as the more the light increases, the more the ability to remember increases, and the more the light decreases and the darkness increases, the more the ability to remember decreases. For that, Joshua the pure prophet pbuh, what do we expect from him other than to accuse himself of negligence and inadvertence, ﴾He [his lad] said, “Did you see when we took shelter at the rock? I forgot the fish, and none but Satan made me forget to remember it.﴿, which means the darkness. Fifth, the brain, considering that it is a device of transmission to and from this world; therefore it affects the matter of remembering greatly. For example, both the correct blood flow within it and the suitable reaching of nutrients to it make it more efficient. The occurrence of a disorder or an illness in it may lead to the loss of the ability to remember fully or partially, temporarily or permanently..."

The Journey of Moses pbuh to the Junction of the Two Seas by Imam Ahmad Al-Hassan, pages 31-32.
 
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joshua 1 9

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We all know that you believe yourself to be Genghis Khan.
He could very well be. Many many people are descended from Genghis Khan. Khan had many wives and many children. Simply because he had the money and the food to feed them.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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He could very well be. Many many people are descended from Genghis Khan. Khan had many wives and many children. Simply because he had the money and the food to feed them.

But there is a huge difference between being a descendant of Genghis Khan and BEING Genghis Khan.
 
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Subduction Zone

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He could very well be. Many many people are descended from Genghis Khan. Khan had many wives and many children. Simply because he had the money and the food to feed them.

Being descended from Genghis Kahn does not make one Genghis Kahn.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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That quote hinted at it, and I only had to read the book sentence that says that quantum entanglement allows faster-than-light information transfer to know it was a waste of time to read any further.

Hint: it doesn't.

In another book the Imam a.s. has written about the brain...
Oh dear. I recommend finding a book about the brain written by someone who knows the subject.
 
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joshua 1 9

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No, I took it up with you because you tried to defend him with a ridiculous counter argument.
AV does not need anyone to defend him. I was just trying to figure out what he was talking about. Or at least convert it into an equation that made sense to me.
 
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AV1611VET

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He could very well be. Many many people are descended from Genghis Khan. Khan had many wives and many children. Simply because he had the money and the food to feed them.
My wife has a Mongolian spot on her lower spine.
 
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Sumeria

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That quote hinted at it, and I only had to read the book sentence that says that quantum entanglement allows faster-than-light information transfer to know it was a waste of time to read any further.

Hint: it doesn't.

The fact remains that the issue of Quantum Entanglement coupled with uncertainty principle which involves instantaneous change in the second particle when first is affected in a system, has remained unsolved for years now. This instantaneous change shows that the change happens faster than the speed of light and for that reason the physicist have proposed some theories regarding the same in such a way that either it doesn't violate Einstein's special relativity or that Quantum mechanics as Einstein used to believe' is not telling the whole story..'. As for the statement faster than light travel by the author, it would be incorrect for you to assume that he meant this universe by that.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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The fact remains that the issue of Quantum Entanglement coupled with uncertainty principle which involves instantaneous change in the second particle when first is affected in a system, has remained unsolved for years now. This instantaneous change shows that the change happens faster than the speed of light and for that reason the physicist have proposed some theories regarding the same in such a way that either it doesn't violate Einstein's special relativity or that Quantum mechanics as Einstein used to believe' is not telling the whole story..'.
Well, no; the idea that it is an 'instantaneous change' depends on your interpretation of QM (i.e. not on the quantum formalism). There are interpretations where this is not the case, e.g. Everettian Many worlds, in which there is no change at all and the observer joins the superposition; or Transactional QM, where the correlation is considered atemporal (it's debatable whether this counts as 'instantaneous').

As for the statement faster than light travel by the author, it would be incorrect for you to assume that he meant this universe by that.
So was he writing about our universe or another? and if he was writing about a universe with different physical laws to our own, how is it relevant?
 
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Sumeria

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@FrumiousBandersnatch The talk is about EPR paradox.
The essence of the paradox is that particles can interact in such a way that it is possible to measure both their position and their momentum more accurately than Heisenberg's uncertainty principle allows, unless measuring one particle instantaneously affects the other to prevent this accuracy, which would involve information being transmitted faster than light as forbidden by the theory of relativity ("spooky action at a distance").

The author of 'Atheism Delusion' says:

I believe that in order to solve this problem we can hypothesize that the information traveling between the two particles is traveling between them in a different universe—one in which they have a phantom existence—and that this other universe allows for things to travel faster than the speed of light.


We can rephrase the problem Einstein presented, by stating that the two particles, along with the measurement process, are a system. Therefore, our knowledge of the position of the second particle, by mere measurement of the first particle’s position, means that if “physical properties are fundamentally indefinite until measured”—as the uncertainty principle in quantum mechanics states—then, by observing the first particle, we cause an instantaneous change in the wave function of the system as a whole. Consequently, this causes the second particle to have a specific position, or speed; or, as Einstein asserted, “Must not the quantum wave describing it somehow change instantaneously all across the screen?”



This moves the discussion to how realistic the wave function is. The issue changes of the wave function traveling instantaneously in space—in other words, without needing any amount of time—means that they travel at infinite speed, which is impossible in our universe. According to Einstein’s special relativity theory, the speed of light cannot be exceeded, let alone by an infinite speed. Speed is distance divided by time. In our case, whatever the distance, the speed is infinite and information travels immediately and instantaneously, meaning that time is equal to zero. In other words, we could say that the dimension of time has disappeared from the universe in which the wave function information traveled. This undoubtedly means that—if special relativity holds—this information is traveling in another universe, whose laws permit what would otherwise be impossible in our universe. It further means that this other universe must be connected to and affecting our universe, and that the things in our universe have a phantom existence in that universe, as they can communicate through it and transfer information among themselves at an infinite speed. Alternatively, perhaps we and the beings in this universe are phantoms of more sophisticated realities that exist in a universe more sophisticated than ours.


Quantum mechanics has opened up the possibility in cosmology for the idea of multiple worlds or universes that can affect one another.


Even if the above research is not sufficient for proving the existence of the human soul or spirit, it certainly makes a reasonable person ask themselves how realistic it is for our existence to be exclusive to this universe, and for us to be mere bodies created from matter in this universe. Is it not possible that these multiple universes are less dense than this universe, and its particles smaller than the particles of matter and energy in our universe, such that they permit traveling faster than the speed of light, which is the speed at which energy particles or photons move in this universe? Is it not possible, under these circumstances, that our universe is a mere phantom existence of a more sophisticated universe?!


Quantum entanglement or inseparability has dimensions that are far greater than a case of two particles or photons being emitted from a single origin, since the entire universe is a quantum event that goes back to a single origin at the time of the big bang. In the past, some particles were close to and stuck to each other. Thus, a particle at the ends of the universe or in the body of another living being was perhaps, on some day and at some moment, stuck to a particle that is in your body right now, and you might be affected when it is affected. Likewise you could, in some way, affect things via quantum entanglement.

You deem yourself small, while the greatest world dwells within you (Al-Hawari 2003, 175).
 
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