The Consequences of Creationism

dad · Jan 1, 2006

thirstforknowledge said:
Someone who thinks evolution is correct, may not come to the religion because people are telling them that they can't believe in evolution and be a Christian...

I never heard of that one, is there such people who claim such things?

john crawford · Jan 1, 2006

chaoschristian said:
Please provide one concrete example of a recent act of government within the United States that abolishes the belief in Christianity.

Hmmm... A slight rearrangement of words in a sentence renders "having religious beliefs abolished in the public square" as "abolishes the belief in Christianity."

Abolishing religious beliefs in the public square means the removal of all religious items on government property which may be identified as being expressions of religious faith and beliefs such as nativity scenes, crucifixes, the 10 Commandments and God in the Pledge.

chaoschristian · Jan 1, 2006

john crawford said:
Hmmm... A slight rearrangement of words in a sentence renders "having religious beliefs abolished in the public square" as "abolishes the belief in Christianity."

Abolishing religious beliefs in the public square means the removal of all religious items on government property which may be identified as being expressions of religious faith and beliefs such as nativity scenes, crucifixes, the 10 Commandments and God in the Pledge.

Fair enough. You admit that no action has been taken by the government to abolish belief in Christianity and demonstrate that the 1st Amendment continues to be properly interpretted and acted upon so that state resources are not used to either institutionalize religion or advance religious evangelical agendas.

Very efficient.

And may I add that the Pledge of Allegiance is an anathema to Christianity.

Thirst_For_Knowledge · Jan 1, 2006

dad said:
I never heard of that one, is there such people who claim such things?

I direct you to the *shiver* other origins forum on this site.

john crawford · Jan 1, 2006

chaoschristian said:
Fair enough. You admit that no action has been taken by the government to abolish belief in Christianity and demonstrate that the 1st Amendment continues to be properly interpretted and acted upon so that state resources are not used to either institutionalize religion or advance religious evangelical agendas.

State resources are used in the prohibition of free speech and religion in public schools in violation of the lawful prohibition clauses in the First Amendment. Very efficiently, I might add, with the blessings of the supremacy court.

And may I add that the Pledge of Allegiance is an anathema to Christianity.

Of course, you may say anything you like, as long as the mods and God don't take offense. I doubt that the Pledge is offensive or anathema to God though.

john crawford · Jan 1, 2006

thirstforknowledge said:
I direct you to the *shiver* other origins forum on this site.

Can you post a link for the benefit of co-posters who may not be aware of it?

monkey88 · Jan 1, 2006

john crawford said:
If, as you claim, political power corrupts, why should Christians tolerate any corrupt political power over them which, as you say, defiles the heart of the Christian message? Advising Christians not to vote for Christian politicians amounts to a guarantee of political suppression of Christians by corrupt non-Christian politicians. Since secular and atheistic politics are corrupt, by your own definition and admission, why should any Christian vote for atheistic or secular policies unless they are politically schizophrenic?

Because Atheist or Secular Policies give precedence to no religion, and are the only ones who can properly promise freedom of religion without comprimising their beliefs.

chaoschristian · Jan 2, 2006

john crawford said:
State resources are used in the prohibition of free speech and religion in public schools in violation of the lawful prohibition clauses in the First Amendment. Very efficiently, I might add, with the blessings of the supremacy court.

1st Amendment said:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

What does the 1st Amendment say?

It clearly does not state that the government cannot make laws regarding religion. If that were true, then tax codes that provide non-profit status for churches and other religious non-profits would be disallowed. Under that kind of interpretation religions that practice virgin-child blood sacrifice could not be stopped by the government. Clearly, that is not was intended and in fact it is not what is said.

What it does say is that the government cannot take action to establish religious institutions. What was specifically being guarded against was the establishment of an official national religion. It also says that the government cannot take action against the establishment of religious institutions. Take this together with the rest of the text now, and you can see that what is clearly meant is that the government cannot interfere in the establishment, expression or gathering of religious institutions when those actions are being taken by private citizens.

What is not explicitly spelled out in the text, but does exist through the extension of logic is that the 1st Amendment prevents the public use of governmental power and influence in the support of religious practices; but it also prevents the public use of governmental power and influence to prevent the expression of religion among private citizens.

You see there is in fact a clear separation between the public realm and the private realm that can be clearly seen in the text and logic of the 1st Amendment. The public realm is kept clear of religious practices exercised by the state, while the private realm is protected from government intrusion.

The entire 'separation of church and state' argument can be set aside as a Red Herring. The real issue is the separation of the public and private realms. And what the Constitution says is that the expression of religion is clearly reserved for the private realm only.

TeddyKGB · Jan 2, 2006

john crawford said:
Ill wager that creation scientists know more about science than you or PrincetonGuy do.

You appear to have switched your delusion-phasers from stun to kill.

Dannager · Jan 2, 2006

john crawford said:
Told ya' this thread would be short lived.

Five pages in less than a day is short-lived?

Dal M. · Jan 2, 2006

john crawford said:
Creationism can only be authoritatively said to be "manifestly untrue" by neo-Darwinist race theorists who promulgate pseudo-scientific beliefs in the origins of so-called "primitive" African people from common ape and monkey ancestors.

Hi, John. Thanks for the bizarre non sequitur.

Opethian · Jan 2, 2006

Hello, I'm new to this forum.

Yes I agree with the fact ID/Creationism Science is a great threat to our world. There are too many people who have too little of a scientific backgrounds to see the tremendous holes and errors in the creation "science", and they may be left intellectually scarred for life. Since I'm new, I can't post any links yet, but once I can I will post some links that show you how painfully dumb or just willfully ignorant some of these creation scientists are. Every argument or theory they have has been irrefutably scientifically disproven and shattered. There's so many minds out there that are so easily manipulated by the sort of deception and fact distortion these creation "scientists" are so good at. The way they argue, I could prove that statistically you could never be born and neither could I. I don't know if you've ever read about the hydroplate theory, but the way this thing is written, I could also write something that proves that the earth is flat and has giant turbines designed by God that make it rotate. The way these scientists try to shake the foundations of evolutionism is also sickening: they utilise misconceptions many people have about evolution and deceive them by going around the point and even using facts that have nothing to do with it all! I was very amused once I found out these people don't even have a clue about basic physics: they don't even know what the second law of thermodynamics means, and try their misconception of it to show that evolution can never happen. A lot of people actually buy this, and that thought just scares me!

PrincetonGuy · Jan 2, 2006

Opethian said:
Hello, I'm new to this forum.

Yes I agree with the fact ID/Creationism Science is a great threat to our world. There are too many people who have too little of a scientific backgrounds to see the tremendous holes and errors in the creation "science", and they may be left intellectually scarred for life. Since I'm new, I can't post any links yet, but once I can I will post some links that show you how painfully dumb or just willfully ignorant some of these creation scientists are. Every argument or theory they have has been irrefutably scientifically disproven and shattered. There's so many minds out there that are so easily manipulated by the sort of deception and fact distortion these creation "scientists" are so good at. The way they argue, I could prove that statistically you could never be born and neither could I. I don't know if you've ever read about the hydroplate theory, but the way this thing is written, I could also write something that proves that the earth is flat and has giant turbines designed by God that make it rotate. The way these scientists try to shake the foundations of evolutionism is also sickening: they utilise misconceptions many people have about evolution and deceive them by going around the point and even using facts that have nothing to do with it all! I was very amused once I found out these people don't even have a clue about basic physics: they don't even know what the second law of thermodynamics means, and try their misconception of it to show that evolution can never happen. A lot of people actually buy this, and that thought just scares me!

Opethian,

I notice that your profile says that you are an 18 year old atheist. I pray that you will not allow the pitfalls of creationism to hinder you in coming to know God in a very personal, meaningful, and dynamic way through the Lord Jesus Christ.

You may want to keep in mind the fact that there is very little evidence for creationism as it is typically taught by Christian fundamentalists, but there is NO EVIDENCE of any kind whatsoever that God does not exist. And, of course, we have the testimonies of countless people who have come to know God that God really does exist.

Thank you for becoming a part of Christian Forums. I pray that we will be a blessing to you, and that you will be a blessing to us.

Nathan Poe · Jan 2, 2006

Dal M. said:
Hi, John. Thanks for the bizarre non sequitur.

He's had years of practice; he's become quite the expert.

I'm surprised he hasn't begun spouting off about "Neo-Darwinist racist theories" yet. Very unusual for him to make us wait for it.

Hydra009 · Jan 2, 2006

Nathan Poe said:
I'm surprised he hasn't begun spouting off about "Neo-Darwinist racist theories" yet. Very unusual for him to make us wait for it.

Not explicitly, but he implies it in his very first post in this thread.

Valkhorn · Jan 2, 2006

Take that, since that's my "take on the matter" and you can take it or leave it at that.

Correction, John, that is your unsubstantiated take on the matter.

Valkhorn · Jan 2, 2006

Ill wager that creation scientists know more about science than you or PrincetonGuy do.

I'll tag that bet. Who else is with me?

Tomk80 · Jan 2, 2006

Valkhorn said:
I'll tag that bet. Who else is with me?

happily

Frumious Bandersnatch · Jan 2, 2006

Dal M. said:
Hi, John. Thanks for the bizarre non sequitur.

Like I said, John is a one trick pony. The false racist claim is the only card he has to play so he plays it over and over again.
F.B.

Frumious Bandersnatch · Jan 2, 2006

Opethian said:
Hello, I'm new to this forum.

Yes I agree with the fact ID/Creationism Science is a great threat to our world. There are too many people who have too little of a scientific backgrounds to see the tremendous holes and errors in the creation "science", and they may be left intellectually scarred for life. Since I'm new, I can't post any links yet, but once I can I will post some links that show you how painfully dumb or just willfully ignorant some of these creation scientists are. Every argument or theory they have has been irrefutably scientifically disproven and shattered. There's so many minds out there that are so easily manipulated by the sort of deception and fact distortion these creation "scientists" are so good at. The way they argue, I could prove that statistically you could never be born and neither could I. I don't know if you've ever read about the hydroplate theory, but the way this thing is written, I could also write something that proves that the earth is flat and has giant turbines designed by God that make it rotate. The way these scientists try to shake the foundations of evolutionism is also sickening: they utilise misconceptions many people have about evolution and deceive them by going around the point and even using facts that have nothing to do with it all! I was very amused once I found out these people don't even have a clue about basic physics: they don't even know what the second law of thermodynamics means, and try their misconception of it to show that evolution can never happen. A lot of people actually buy this, and that thought just scares me!

Welcome to the forum. I think you will find that most creationists have seen the links and seen the science before. In general it doesn't penetrate the fog of willful ignorance and massive illogic they throw up to protect themselves from the fact that science has refuted their mythology long ago. You might be interested in the C&E thread archive by Mechanical Bliss with links to threads where many of these issues have been dicussed as well as my Falsification of the Worldwide Flood thread which links to many of our discussion on that topic.

F.B.

The Consequences of Creationism

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