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The Collective Concept of Messiah.

gadar perets

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You have spoken wonderfully in this last paragraph but it is not enough. If you deny Israel as God's servant in Isaiah 53 because the chapter is speaking about one in the third person, you might as well erase the whole chapter 4:22,23 of Exodus because the point is the same that the Lord is talking in the singular but meaning the People of Israel. "Israel is My Son; let My Son go that HE may serve Me." HaShem is talking about Israel the People, though using terms in the singular. So, your rule of thumb about Isaiah 53 being one person and not the People of Israel has failed because, in Isaiah 53 and Exodus 4, the method is the same.
The difference is that in Exodus 4, we know the singular pronouns are referring to the nation as a whole. In Isaiah, the singular pronouns are used of Messiah, but the plural pronouns are used of Israel. In Exodus 4:23, we don't read, "Let my son go, that they may serve me". If Israel is spoken of with singular pronouns in Isaiah 53, then who is "we" and "our"?
 
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Shibolet

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The difference is that in Exodus 4, we know the singular pronouns are referring to the nation as a whole. In Isaiah, the singular pronouns are used of Messiah, but the plural pronouns are used of Israel. In Exodus 4:23, we don't read, "Let my son go, that they may serve me". If Israel is spoken of with singular pronouns in Isaiah 53, then who is "we" and "our"?

And who has decided that rule of thumb, Gadar Perets or Paul?
 
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gadar perets

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And who has decided that rule of thumb, Gadar Perets or Paul?
It is not a rule of thumb. It is my observation. Who is the "we" and "our"? If you say, "Israel," then is this how we should understand Isaiah 53:2?

Isaiah 53:2 For Israel shall grow up before Him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: Israel has no form nor comeliness; and when Israel shall see Israel, there is no beauty that Israel should desire Israel.
Or, if you prefer the JPS;

Isaiah 53:2 For Israel shot up right forth as a sapling, and as a root out of a dry ground; Israel had no form nor comeliness, that Israel should look upon Israel, nor beauty that Israel should delight in Israel.​

 
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Shibolet

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It is not a rule of thumb. It is my observation. Who is the "we" and "our"? If you say, "Israel," then is this how we should understand Isaiah 53:2?

Isaiah 53:2 For Israel shall grow up before Him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: Israel has no form nor comeliness; and when Israel shall see Israel, there is no beauty that Israel should desire Israel.
Or, if you prefer the JPS;

Isaiah 53:2 For Israel shot up right forth as a sapling, and as a root out of a dry ground; Israel had no form nor comeliness, that Israel should look upon Israel, nor beauty that Israel should delight in Israel.​

Any one with a little of commonsense can see that you are trying to mess up with the text but it won't help you. Isaiah 53:2 fits Israel as a glove. At least, the name of the Suffering Servant is identified as Israel by name by the Prophet (Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21) throughout the book of Isaiah. How about Yeshua or Jesus, can you find his name in the Tanach?Absolutely not! So, you cannot replace Israel the People with an individual that to the Tanach is completely alien. I am sorry, Mr. Perets.​

 
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gadar perets

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Any one with a little of commonsense can see that you are trying to mess up with the text but it won't help you. Isaiah 53:2 fits Israel as a glove. At least, the name of the Suffering Servant is identified as Israel by name by the Prophet (Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21) throughout the book of Isaiah. How about Yeshua or Jesus, can you find his name in the Tanach?Absolutely not! So, you cannot replace Israel the People with an individual that to the Tanach is completely alien. I am sorry, Mr. Perets.
How can I be messing up the text? You say Israel is the "he" and "him" as well as the "we" and "our". Therefore, it should be no problem substituting "Israel" for those pronouns. YOU are, in fact, messing up the text by your ridiculous assertions.

Here is the correct idea the text is bringing forth;

Isaiah 53:2 For Maschiach shot up right forth as a sapling, and as a root out of a dry ground; Maschiach had no form nor comeliness, that Israel should look upon Maschiach, nor beauty that Israel should delight in Maschiach.​

The name "Yeshua" is found many times in the Tanakh. Yeshua is YHWH's servant. You seem to think only Israel can be YHWH's servant.

Isa 20:3 And YHWH said: 'Like as My servant Isaiah hath walked naked and barefoot to be for three years a sign and a wonder upon Egypt and upon Ethiopia, JPS
Gen 26:24 And YHWH appeared unto him the same night, and said: 'I am the God of Abraham thy father. Fear not, for I am with thee, and will bless thee, and multiply thy seed for My servant Abraham's sake.'
Num 12:7 My servant Moses is not so; he is trusted in all My house;
Num 14:24 But My servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed Me fully, him will I bring into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it.
2Sa 7:5 'Go and tell My servant David: Thus saith the LORD: Shalt thou build Me a house for Me to dwell in?
Job 1:8 And YHWH said unto Satan: 'Hast thou considered My servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a whole-hearted and an upright man, one that feareth God, and shunneth evil?'

YHWH has many servants. The ultimate servant, the one in whose mouth was no guile, the one who never sinned, the who Israel was speaking about through the prophet Isaiah in chapter 53, is Yeshua HaMaschiach.

Zec 3:8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou and thy fellows that sit before thee; for they are men that are a sign; for, behold, I will bring forth My servant the Shoot. JPS

Who is "the Shoot"? Who is this servant? It is the same servant that grows out of the stump of Jesse (an Israelite);

Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a shoot out of the stock of Jesse, and a twig shall grow forth out of his roots.
Isa 11:2 And the spirit of YHWH shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of YHWH.
Isa 11:3 And his delight shall be in the fear of YHWH; and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither decide after the hearing of his ears;
Isa 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and decide with equity for the meek of the land; and he shall smite the land with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
Isa 11:5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

Jesse was an Israelite of the tribe of Benjamin. This is a messianic passage. Israel doesn't even come close to fulfilling these verses. Maschiach is the "shoot" here and in Zechariah 3:8.
 
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Goodbook

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This forum doesnt sound like it would be a good idea, if you wish to argue, and go in for pages and pages back and forth, go debate such things in the controversial christianity forum.

This is a christian forum and we believe Jesus is Lord..he is the messiah. Collectively his body is the called out believers...and yes, this extends outside of the house of israel to the gentiles. Paul was an apostle to the gentiles, chosen by Jesus himself.

Please understand the basic John 3:16 verse. I would find it extremely offensive if some people claimed the messiah was anyone other than Jesus. This is how cults start.
 
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Shibolet

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This forum doesnt sound like it would be a good idea, if you wish to argue, and go in for pages and pages back and forth, go debate such things in the controversial christianity forum.

This is a christian forum and we believe Jesus is Lord..he is the messiah. Collectively his body is the called out believers...and yes, this extends outside of the house of israel to the gentiles. Paul was an apostle to the gentiles, chosen by Jesus himself.

Please understand the basic John 3:16 verse. I would find it extremely offensive if some people claimed the messiah was anyone other than Jesus. This is how cults start.

I am sorry but I cannot change my belief in the collective concept of Messiah in the hope that you feel happy. If you read Prophet Habakkuk 3:13, "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One." That's what Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel the Son of God if you read Exodus 4:22,23. The Messiah cannot be an individual; the individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. Are we supposed to expect a new Messiah in every generation? Obviously not! The Messiah is not supposed to die but to remain as a people before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37)
 
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