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The Colin Patterson quote: No Intermediate Fossils

gungasnake

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Every real expert who's ever commented on intermediate fossils is on record to the effect that there simply aren't any. Those kinds of quotes drive evolutionists up the wall and one of the two or three such quotes which produces the greatest volume of squealing and caterwauling is the famous quote from Colin Patterson (Senior Paleontologist, British Museum of Natural History, London).

The squealing and caterwauling usually takes the form of calling creationists who quote Patterson all liars, and claiming that the quote was taken out of context and that what Patterson really meant to say was that:

A wet bird never flies at night.

or something like that.

I've managed to come up with a wonderful article which describes the entire situation:

That quote!—about the missing transitional fossils


The article goes on to provide a thorough analysis of whether or not anybody was being misquoted in such a way as to invert any sort of an original intent or meaning.
 

HitchSlap

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Are you familiar with the Dunning-Kruger effect?
 
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Loudmouth

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Every real expert who's ever commented on intermediate fossils is on record to the effect that there simply aren't any.

Gould is an expert, and he says there are intermediate fossils.

"Some discoveries in science are exciting because they revise or reverse previous expectations, others because they affirm with elegance something well suspected, but previously undocumented. Our four-case story, culminating in Ambulocetus, falls into the second category. This sequential discovery of picture-perfect intermediacy in the evolution of whales stands as a triumph in the history of paleontology. I cannot imagine a better tale for popular presentation of science, or a more satisfying, and intellectually based, political victory over lingering creationist opposition. As such, I present the story in this series of essays with both delight and relish."--Stephen Jay Gould, "Hooking Leviathan by Its Past"
Stephen Jay Gould, "Hooking Leviathan by Its Past," 1997
 
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Loudmouth

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In this case, that would amount to you and your ilk thinking yourselves to know more about paleontology than somebody like Patterson, wouldn't it?

In this case, that would amount to you and your ilk thinking yourselves to know more about paleontology than somebody like Gould, wouldn't it?

"Some discoveries in science are exciting because they revise or reverse previous expectations, others because they affirm with elegance something well suspected, but previously undocumented. Our four-case story, culminating in Ambulocetus, falls into the second category. This sequential discovery of picture-perfect intermediacy in the evolution of whales stands as a triumph in the history of paleontology. I cannot imagine a better tale for popular presentation of science, or a more satisfying, and intellectually based, political victory over lingering creationist opposition. As such, I present the story in this series of essays with both delight and relish."--Stephen Jay Gould, "Hooking Leviathan by Its Past"
 
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Loudmouth

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Of course, Dr. Patterson was asked about creationists using the out of context quote, and he had this to say:

Sorry to have taken so long to answer your letter of July 9th. I was away for a while, and then infernally busy. I seem fated continually to make a fool of myself with creationists. The specific quote you mention, from a letter to Sunderland dated 10th April 1979, is accurate as far as it goes. The passage quoted continues "... a watertight argument. The reason is that statements about ancestry and descent are not applicable in the fossil record. Is Archaeopteryx the ancestor of all birds? Perhaps yes, perhaps no: there is no way of answering the question. It is easy enough to make up stories of how one form gave rise to another, and to find reasons why the stages should be favoured by natural selection. But such stories are not part of science, for there is no way to put them to the test."

I think the continuation of the passage shows clearly that your interpretation (at the end of your letter) is correct, and the creationists' is false.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/patterson.html


What Patterson was saying all along is that we can never say with absolute certainty that a fossil has descendants. That's it. Patterson himself is saying that you are misusing his words.
 
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gungasnake

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Steve Gould was always playing a double game. His original concern was to lift the dead hand of Darwinism from his own field of paleontology, the problem being that paleontologists were not being allowed to publish things which contradicted Darwinian gradualism. He made a number of early statements to the effect that there were no intermediates and then caught so much grief over it that he ended up making a few perfunctory statements such as those about supposedly ambulatory whales to try to repair some of the damage.

Creating the Missing Link: A Tale About a Whale

 
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Heissonear

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Naturalists on CF have little science experience and knowledge about how the fundamental foundation of Evolution is missing - of the millions upon millions of fossils found on earth there are no transition fossils that show or prove Evolution has happened. Naturalists, and subset Evolutionists, cannot prove through the fossil record that Evolution happened on earth. The fossil record proves the opposite, that Evolution never happened. Period.




.
 
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Loudmouth

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Steve Gould was always playing a double game.

It is creationists who are playing the double game.

"Since we proposed punctuated equilibria to explain trends, it is infuriating to be quoted again and again by creationists—whether through design or stupidity, I do not know—as admitting that the fossil record includes no transitional forms. Transitional forms are generally lacking at the species level, but they are abundant between larger groups."--Stephen Jay Gould, "Evolution as Fact and Theory"
Stephen Jay Gould, "Evolution as Fact and Theory" 1994

Yet another expert chimes in.

"Macroevolution has growing and compelling evidence to support it. Elephants, turtles, whales, birds often have been cited as species where transitional species have not been identified. That is no longer true. We have gained more in the fossil record in the last ten years than in almost the entire previous history of science."--Dr. Francis Collins, "Faith and the Human Genome"
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2003/PSCF9-03Collins.pdf

Dr. Collins was the head of Human Genome Project and is currently the Director of the National Institutes of Health, the major funding agency for scientific research in the biological sciences.


Those were creationists twisting his words, as Gould explained.

Experts do say that there are intermediate fossils. They have been saying it for quite some time now.
 
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Loudmouth

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Heissonear

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Astounding. One of the (many) things that drove me away from YEC is this kind of dishonesty. Not only the quote mines themselves, but the failure of their proponents to admit them when shown to be mined.

You wish qoutes from Darwin said other. And wish the fossil record showed other. Are you intelligent enough to see the "missing" foundation Evolutionists try to stand on?

Naturalism is based on faith. Naturalists walk by faith. Have you not learned these things yet?

.
 
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Loudmouth

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We found the foundation.

Evolution -- Transitional Hominids
 
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Heissonear

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bhsmte

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Astounding. One of the (many) things that drove me away from YEC is this kind of dishonesty. Not only the quote mines themselves, but the failure of their proponents to admit them when shown to be mined.

Desperate people, do desperate things.
 
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Heissonear

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You again wish. You cannot prove life came about by natural processes. Nor can nnaturalistic scientists make any form of life, regardless the materials and conditions he has at his disposal.

You have no origin of life foundation to stand on, but through faith. The same for the process of Evolution, there is no evidence in the millions of fossils. You have no evidence that life evolved, but through faith.

I told you months ago about the weakness and limitations of Naturalism but you appear to be slow to learn or stubborn to see your lack of evidence foundation dilemma.

.
 
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