The CoC's view of baptism

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Jesus Christ while living on Earth had the Authority to forgive sins. Today he is not on Earth but in heaven, and gave us a process by which we can be saved by the Blood of Christ. He was saved by a direct administration of Grace from Christ that is not available to us today.

Can you prove he was not immersed some time before he was arrested and crucified ?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Do not come on this site (The Restoration forum) and call Restorationist names that demeaning and derogatory. We are not Campbellites. The Campbells where not the only leaders of the movement, and for that matter about 75% of Restoration members don't know who they are.

?? don't they own a soup company ? ?

 

[Thedictator]

?? don't they own a soup company ? ?

I love it thank you

 

[Thedictator]

Can you prove he was not immersed some time before he was arrested and crucified ?

No I can't but if he was baptized before, that takes away the Thief on the Cross argument.

 

[Thedictator]

Billions of people could get baptized without believing - like joining a club ..

Then they where not baptized but just dunked in water, True baptism must have belief and repentance.

Also many people believe and are not saved, They do not have the right kind of faith so they are diluted in thinking they are saved and are not.

 

[Thedictator]

I came across a problem and I don't want to cause problems but it's a stumbling block for me. Some people say that in Acts 10, a group of people (including Cornelius) received the Holy Spirit before baptism and I've been trying to find a good rebuttal to this.

This is what is called an exception to the rule, The church at that time believed that only Jews ( or those that went through a long process of cleansing and learning the law and Jewish tradition to become a Jew) could be saved. So many in the Church including the Apostles believe that you could not teach the Gospel to the gentiles because they where unacceptable to God, so God made an exception for Cornelius to show that God also is the saver to the gentiles. Giving him the Holy Spirit was God's way of saying he is acceptable for salvation so go ahead and Baptize him.

 

[Thedictator]

Why do you need a rebuttal? The fact of the matter is that salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ, as exhibited in Cornelius and his household having received the gift of the Holy Spirit apart from any work, including baptism.

Christian theology becomes extremely complex and difficult to reconcile with scripture when works are intermingled with faith in Jesus Christ.

No, it only becomes difficult with man-made doctrine like (dead) faith only. It is just not in the Bible. Read James he clears up faith only.

 

[Albion]

Sadly, you are mistaken here. The Roman Catholic Church clearly states this in its Catechism -

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.

You may find statements like that in print but the church these days very definitely does not teach it anymore, nor does the average church member believe it..

 

[Thedictator]

Why do you need a rebuttal? The fact of the matter is that salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ, as exhibited in Cornelius and his household having received the gift of the Holy Spirit apart from any work, including baptism.

Christian theology becomes extremely complex and difficult to reconcile with scripture when works are intermingled with faith in Jesus Christ.

Baptism is not a work, the person being baptized does no work, the only work being done is by God, Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit, and the baptizer. Sorry but no work being done by the believer. The believer is only submitting himself to God. Submission is not work. What is work is belief in Christ, so by your own statement you must believe you are saved without believing in Jesus Christ.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Do not come on this site (The Restoration forum) and call Restorationist names that demeaning and derogatory. We are not Campbellites. The Campbells where not the only leaders of the movement, and for that matter about 75% of Restoration members don't know who they are.

I live in a parallel universe where one of the leaders of the restoration movement I am in was named John Darby. Hence, many of us are sometimes called Darbyites. Personally, I do not take offence, realizing that Darby is long gone and I have been called much worse things. I apologize for offending you by associating you with a man who did lead the way for many from various errors of denominations and churches into a more biblical understanding.

 

[bbbbbbb]

You may find statements like that in print but the church these days very definitely does not teach it anymore, nor does the average church member believe it..

Albion, it is true that the priests of the Catholic Church today do vary considerably from the teaching of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, whether intentionally or not I cannot say. Nevertheless, the official teaching of the Catholic Church which is expected of each Catholic is summarized in the Catechism of the Catholic Church and any variance from it is considered to be, at best, error, or, at worst, heresy.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Baptism is not a work, the person being baptized does no work, the only work being done is by God, Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit, and the baptizer. Sorry but no work being done by the believer. The believer is only submitting himself to God. Submission is not work. What is work is belief in Christ, so by your own statement you must believe you are saved without believing in Jesus Christ.

Now, it is evident that human effort is part and parcel in the act of water baptism. One does not merely pray to God and God miraculously immerses that person in water while proclaiming the baptismal formula. Rather, one exerts effort to go to a place where baptismal water is located. One finds a valid Christian who can perform the rite properly and one is summarily baptized in the water. God is, indeed, the originator of baptism, but He is not the One who performs the physical act.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Hello, welcome to the Restoration forum
First you make the Statement "other denomination" Churches of Christ are not a denomination we are a fellowship of independent autonomous congregations. The others in the Restoration movement maybe denominations I'm not sure. The reason for so much confusion about baptism is because many would rather follow man-made doctrines than clear biblical statement of the Bible.

If, indeed, what you say is true, then you would extend the hand of fellowship to all of the (so-called) Plymouth Brethren who are, indeed, independent autonomous congregations. However, as it actually is, even those fellowships which can clearly trace their origins to your own are frequently rejected. One of the simplest reasons for rejection within your movement is the usage of instrumental accompaniment in congregational singing.

Until you actually and truly embrace all Christians as equal to you in Christ, then you will remain one among a multitude of denominations in Christendom.

 

[Albion]

Albion, it is true that the priests of the Catholic Church today do vary considerably from the teaching of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, whether intentionally or not I cannot say. Nevertheless, the official teaching of the Catholic Church which is expected of each Catholic is summarized in the Catechism of the Catholic Church and any variance from it is considered to be, at best, error, or, at worst, heresy.

I really don't think you can take your stand on that Catechism which, after all, is just a primer for the laity, very summary, and susceptible to different interpretations in the inimitable Roman Catholic manner.

Notice how much wiggle room is involved with just this part:

Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude

 

[bbbbbbb]

I really don't think you can take your stand on that Catechism which, after all, is just a primer for the laity, very summary, and susceptible to different interpretations in the inimitable Roman Catholic manner.

Notice how much wiggle room is involved with just this part:

Yes, there is ample vagueness in the Catechism of the Catholic Church to cover just about any eventuality. However, it is generally accepted as being an authoritative summary of Catholic belief. On this particular topic, if one were to survey Catholic clergy and laity, I think you would find virtually unanimous agreement that baptism is essential for salvation (except for extenuating circumstances).

 

[Thedictator]

I live in a parallel universe where one of the leaders of the restoration movement I am in was named John Darby. Hence, many of us are sometimes called Darbyites. Personally, I do not take offence, realizing that Darby is long gone and I have been called much worse things. I apologize for offending you by associating you with a man who did lead the way for many from various errors of denominations and churches into a more biblical understanding.

I apologize if I overacted, but I'm the worship minister at the local Church of Christ in a small town in Northeast Texas. My Church belongs to the Ministerial Alliance and the Baptist pastors their call us Campbellites it is meant to be an insult. We do not follow the teachings of Alexander Campbell, we follow only the teaching of God's Word. Some of what Alexander Campbell taught has be refuted today as false. He is looked upon by our Church as a great leader, but not followed like Martin Luther and John Wesley are in their respected Churches.

Now, it is evident that human effort is part and parcel in the act of water baptism. One does not merely pray to God and God miraculously immerses that person in water while proclaiming the baptismal formula. Rather, one exerts effort to go to a place where baptismal water is located. One finds a valid Christian who can perform the rite properly and one is summarily baptized in the water. God is, indeed, the originator of baptism, but He is not the One who performs the physical act.

I did say that there was no work done in Baptism, just that no work is done by the Believer. There is work in teaching the Gospel ( I was a missionary in Russia and I know how much hard work is needed to teach the Gospel) Now are you saying that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not needed for Salvation just because there is work involved?? What about the Work of the Cross? Is the work of Believing in Jesus Christ needed for Salvation? Saying the sinner prayer is Human effort. Studying the Bible to understand how to find salvation is Human effort. I would like an answer to my questions please.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

No I can't but if he was baptized before, that takes away the Thief on the Cross argument.

Exactly! Good! Thus, no argument...... instead, peace and harmony with all of Yahweh's Word, Plan, Purpose and Salvation in Jesus.

 

[Albion]

Yes, there is ample vagueness in the Catechism of the Catholic Church to cover just about any eventuality. However, it is generally accepted as being an authoritative summary of Catholic belief. On this particular topic, if one were to survey Catholic clergy and laity, I think you would find virtually unanimous agreement that baptism is essential for salvation (except for extenuating circumstances).

My friend, I am positive that you would not. (although you've left an escape route with those unexplained extenuating circumstances. )

 

[bbbbbbb]

I apologize if I overacted, but I'm the worship minister at the local Church of Christ in a small town in Northeast Texas. My Church belongs to the Ministerial Alliance and the Baptist pastors their call us Campbellites it is meant to be an insult. We do not follow the teachings of Alexander Campbell, we follow only the teaching of God's Word. Some of what Alexander Campbell taught has be refuted today as false. He is looked upon by our Church as a great leader, but not followed like Martin Luther and John Wesley are in their respected Churches.

I did say that there was no work done in Baptism, just that no work is done by the Believer. There is work in teaching the Gospel ( I was a missionary in Russia and I know how much hard work is needed to teach the Gospel) Now are you saying that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not needed for Salvation just because there is work involved?? What about the Work of the Cross? Is the work of Believing in Jesus Christ needed for Salvation? Saying the sinner prayer is Human effort. Studying the Bible to understand how to find salvation is Human effort. I would like an answer to my questions please.

Here are my answers:

1. Now are you saying that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not needed for Salvation just because there is work involved?? No, I have never said any such thing.
2. What about the Work of the Cross? Please clarify. Do you mean taking up one's cross and following Jesus?
3. Is the work of Believing in Jesus Christ needed for Salvation? No

Now I have three questions for you, as follow:

1. When can a person know with absolute certainty that they are saved?
2. When can a person know with absolute certainty that they have lost their salvation?
3. When can a person who has lost his salvation know with absolute certainty that he has regained his salvation?

I look forward to your answers. Thank you.

 

[bbbbbbb]

My friend, I am positive that you would not. (We could find some way to test it out, though. )

True.