LDS The Claim

Hrairoo

Prayerfully Searching
Aug 30, 2020
135
119
New York
✟14,563.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Constitution
So I asked about the various liturgies in the Church, most of them ancient, and where the supposed original pre-apostasy LDS like liturgy was. And all I hear is crickets. All of the various families of liturgy in original Christianity are related and cohesive. But none of them are cohesive with LDS liturgy. Where is the historical document of a pre-apostasy LDS like liturgy from before Hippolytus wrote his 'Apostolic Traditions' in 235 AD? If LDS claims are true, there should be a Mormon liturgy from the first century. Where is it? Crickets.

Guess what? It's not in the Book of Mormon either.

The temple ritual? Not in the Book of Mormon.
Eternal marriage? Nobody in the Book of Mormon gets married for time and all eternity.
Plural Gods? Nope.
The premortal existence? Not in the Book of Mormon.
Baptisms by proxy for the dead? Nope.
Three different levels of heaven? Nope.

You know, I facetiously posted how I wonder what the gold plates were even for if Joseph Smith had his face in a hat. But honestly, I wonder what the Book of Mormon is even for when the core, unique doctrines of the religion are non-existent from the main book. I suppose that's why, after it was "translated" and published, JS found the book of Abraham and added his personal revelations as scripture. After we got the "fullness of the gospel" God just had so much more to say, you know?
 
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
19,271
16,118
Flyoverland
✟1,234,543.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Guess what? It's not in the Book of Mormon either.

The temple ritual? Not in the Book of Mormon.
Eternal marriage? Nobody in the Book of Mormon gets married for time and all eternity.
Plural Gods? Nope.
The premortal existence? Not in the Book of Mormon.
Baptisms by proxy for the dead? Nope.
Three different levels of heaven? Nope.

You know, I facetiously posted how I wonder what the gold plates were even for if Joseph Smith had his face in a hat. But honestly, I wonder what the Book of Mormon is even for when the core, unique doctrines of the religion are non-existent from the main book. I suppose that's why, after it was "translated" and published, JS found the book of Abraham and added his personal revelations as scripture. After we got the "fullness of the gospel" God just had so much more to say, you know?
Interesting. It seems like a very fluid religion.

My thinking, if there is a shred of validity to the LDS, there has to be some historical record going back to Jesus and his apostles. Maybe I'm just expecting too much and they really do operate on a level of mythology and feelings. For me, I wanted to know that the worship of original Christianity was similar to the worship of the Catholic church I was attending. Big differences would be red flags. But there was early documentation and only tiny differences. To me, if the LDS were true, there would be a document of a historical liturgy somewhere in the first few hundred years that was like the current LDS practice. Why can't they show that? Why don't they even seem to care to try to show that?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hrairoo
Upvote 0

CaspianSails

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2019
579
302
65
Washington DC metro area
✟27,746.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
People follow who they want to follow, they either follow Jesus Christ of Satan. One of Christ's apostles was a devil. We are responsible for our own choices.

The OP posited that one of two churches speak with the authority of Christ, the Roman Catholic Church or the LDS. That is a false proposition. God speaks through His Word to all. No church speaks for Christ. The Scripture contains all the revelation of God from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21. None of the apostles was a devil. One betrayed him but he was not a devil. Those who know God are called by God. Salvation is all of God and none of man.
 
Upvote 0

PaulCyp1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 4, 2018
1,075
849
78
Massachusetts
✟239,255.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
The thing is, Jesus Christ clearly and repeatedly demonstrated that He was God, by constantly doing things only God could do. He, God, founded one Church, said it was to remain one, and promised that one Church the fullness of God's truth until the end of time. Joseph Smith as just an ordinary man, one of thousands who have founded false religions. None of them every gal any evidence they were God, or any evidence God had anything to do with their deciding to start a new church. And since the teachings/beliefs of such manmade churches always contradict the teachings of the one Church guaranteed true by God Himself, they are clearly false.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Hrairoo
Upvote 0

dzheremi

Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian
Aug 27, 2014
13,551
13,707
✟428,995.00
Country
United States
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Why can't they show that? Why don't they even seem to care to try to show that?

I'm going to take a wild guess and say that they would have to share the details of their temple ritual to even be able to claim that they have anything like a liturgy to begin with (though it's really not; I've seen it, and it has none of the common parts that you'd find in a Christian liturgy, e.g., no offertory, no anaphora, etc.), and that's something they won't do.
 
Upvote 0

He is the way

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
8,103
359
Murray
✟113,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
The OP posited that one of two churches speak with the authority of Christ, the Roman Catholic Church or the LDS. That is a false proposition. God speaks through His Word to all. No church speaks for Christ. The Scripture contains all the revelation of God from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21. None of the apostles was a devil. One betrayed him but he was not a devil. Those who know God are called by God. Salvation is all of God and none of man.
Anyone can follow Satan:

(New Testament | John 6:67 - 71)

67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
(New Testament | Matthew 16:22 - 25)

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
24 ¶ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
 
Upvote 0

Daniel Marsh

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2015
9,749
2,615
Livingston County, MI, US
✟199,553.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The priesthood of Aaronic was conferred on them by John, see verse 69, therefore they had the authority to confirm one another.

While John is on earth, there can be no great apostasy. If there were John would step in to set the doctrines right.

2 Thessalonians 2
Easy-to-Read Version

2 Brothers and sisters, we have something to say about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. We want to talk to you about that time when we will meet together with him. 2 Don’t let yourselves be easily upset or worried if you hear that the day of the Lord has already come. Someone might say that this idea came from us—in something the Spirit told us, or in something we said, or in a letter we wrote. 3 Don’t be fooled by anything they might say. That day of the Lord will not come until the turning away from God happens. And that day will not come until the Man of Evil appears, the one who belongs to hell. 4 He will stand against and put himself above everything that people worship or think is worthy of worship. He will even go into God’s Temple and sit there, claiming that he is God.

5 I told you before that all these things would happen. Remember? 6 And you know what is stopping that Man of Evil now. He is being stopped now so that he will appear at the right time. 7 The secret power of evil is already working in the world now. But there is one who is stopping that secret power of evil. And he will continue to stop it until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that Man of Evil will appear. But the Lord Jesus will kill him with the breath that comes from his mouth. The Lord will come in a way that everyone will see, and that will be the end of the Man of Evil.

9 When that Man of Evil comes, it will be the work of Satan. He will come with great power, and he will do all kinds of false miracles, signs, and wonders. 10 The Man of Evil will use every kind of evil to fool those who are lost. They are lost because they refused to love the truth and be saved. 11 So God will send them something powerful that leads them away from the truth and causes them to believe a lie. 12 They will all be condemned because they did not believe the truth and because they enjoyed doing evil.

If the Apostle John is alive as you say, it makes sense that "he" is the one restraining the man of evil.
 
Upvote 0

He is the way

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
8,103
359
Murray
✟113,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
While John is on earth, there can be no great apostasy. If there were John would step in to set the doctrines right.

2 Thessalonians 2
Easy-to-Read Version

2 Brothers and sisters, we have something to say about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. We want to talk to you about that time when we will meet together with him. 2 Don’t let yourselves be easily upset or worried if you hear that the day of the Lord has already come. Someone might say that this idea came from us—in something the Spirit told us, or in something we said, or in a letter we wrote. 3 Don’t be fooled by anything they might say. That day of the Lord will not come until the turning away from God happens. And that day will not come until the Man of Evil appears, the one who belongs to hell. 4 He will stand against and put himself above everything that people worship or think is worthy of worship. He will even go into God’s Temple and sit there, claiming that he is God.

5 I told you before that all these things would happen. Remember? 6 And you know what is stopping that Man of Evil now. He is being stopped now so that he will appear at the right time. 7 The secret power of evil is already working in the world now. But there is one who is stopping that secret power of evil. And he will continue to stop it until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that Man of Evil will appear. But the Lord Jesus will kill him with the breath that comes from his mouth. The Lord will come in a way that everyone will see, and that will be the end of the Man of Evil.

9 When that Man of Evil comes, it will be the work of Satan. He will come with great power, and he will do all kinds of false miracles, signs, and wonders. 10 The Man of Evil will use every kind of evil to fool those who are lost. They are lost because they refused to love the truth and be saved. 11 So God will send them something powerful that leads them away from the truth and causes them to believe a lie. 12 They will all be condemned because they did not believe the truth and because they enjoyed doing evil.

If the Apostle John is alive as you say, it makes sense that "he" is the one restraining the man of evil.
These verses were about John the Baptist who came down from heaven. Whether John the beloved is in heaven or not we do not know. Elijah went up to heaven after he was translated. Perhaps translated beings can serve both in heaven and on earth.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Daniel Marsh
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Daniel Marsh

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2015
9,749
2,615
Livingston County, MI, US
✟199,553.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
These verses were about John the Baptist who came down from heaven. Whether John the beloved is in heaven or not we do not know. Elijah went up to heaven after he was translated. Perhaps translated beings can serve both in heaven and on earth.

I spoke with an LDS person a few days ago who claimed they saw John the other day.

"“While these things were being attended to the beloved disciple John was seen in our midst by the Prophet Joseph, Oliver Cowdery and others.” (In Whitney, Life of Heber C. Kimball, pp. 91–92.) Section 7, John the Revelator

D&C SECTION 7

Revelation given to Joseph Smith the Prophet and Oliver Cowdery, at Harmony, Pennsylvania, April 1829, when they inquired through the Urim and Thummim as to whether John, the beloved disciple, tarried in the flesh or had died. The revelation is a translated version of the record made on parchment by John and hidden up by himself.

1–3, John the Beloved will live until the Lord comes; 4–8, Peter, James, and John hold gospel keys.

1 And the Lord said unto me: aJohn, my beloved, what bdesirest thou? For if you shall ask what you will, it shall be granted unto you.

2 And I said unto him: Lord, give unto me apower over bdeath, that I may live and bring souls unto thee.

3 And the Lord said unto me: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, because thou desirest this thou shalt atarry until I come in my bglory, and shalt cprophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people.

4 And for this cause the Lord said unto Peter: If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? For he desired of me that he might bring asouls unto me, but thou desiredst that thou mightest speedily come unto me in my bkingdom.

5 I say unto thee, Peter, this was a good desire; but my beloved has desired that he might do more, or a greater awork yet among men than what he has before done.

6 Yea, he has undertaken a greater work; therefore I will make him as flaming fire and a aministering angel; he shall minister for those who shall be bheirs of salvation who dwell on the earth.

7 And I will make thee to minister for him and for thy brother James; and unto you three I will agive this power and the bkeys of this ministry until I come.

8 Verily I say unto you, ye shall both have according to your desires, for ye both ajoy in that which ye have desired.


III Nephi 28

"
CHAPTER 28

Nine of the twelve disciples desire and are promised an inheritance in Christ’s kingdom when they die—The Three Nephites desire and are given power over death so as to remain on the earth until Jesus comes again—They are translated and see things not lawful to utter, and they are now ministering among men. About A.D. 34–35.

"
  1. John requested and was granted power over death, so that he could tarry on earth until Christ’s Second Coming.

  2. By being translated, John would be able to bring souls unto Christ; to prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues, and people; to do an even greater work than he had previously done; and to minister for those who dwell on the earth. In these things John was to become “as flaming fire and a ministering angel” (D&C 7:6).
Jesus’ statement to His Apostles in Matthew 16:28 [Matt. 16:28] seems to foreshadow John’s postmeridian ministry: “Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.” The Luke version of this statement has a helpful addition in the Joseph Smith Translation: “There are some standing here who shall not taste of death, until they see the kingdom of God coming in power” (JST, Luke 9:27, The Holy Scriptures: Inspired Version),7 an obvious reference to the Second Coming, which John would live in the flesh to see. "

As Flaming Fire and a Ministering Angel

"For example, the original edition declares that John would “tarry until I come in my glory” while the current version adds “and shalt prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues and people” (D&C 7:3). In addition, the shorter version simply states to Peter that John “has undertaken a greater work,” but the expanded edition illustrates in greater detail what that mission would entail: “I will make him as flaming fire and a ministering angel; he shall minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation who dwell on the earth” (D&C 7:6).[27]

...

The Doctrine of Translation
Latter-day scripture not only confirms that John did not die but also provides valuable information about translated beings. During His mortal ministry, the Savior declared to His Apostles, “There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom” (Matthew 16:28; see also Mark 9:1; Luke 9:27). John apparently desired to fulfill this prophecy. According to the translated parchment, John asked the Savior for “power over death” so that he might “live and bring souls unto thee” (D&C 7:2). The Lord responded by confirming to John that he would “tarry until I come in my glory” (D&C 7:3)—in other words, he would be translated. Use of the English word translated to describe someone who was taken to heaven without tasting death can be traced all the way back to the first English version of the Bible by John Wycliffe in the year 1380.[36] The King James Version of the Bible describes Enoch in the following way: “By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God” (Hebrews 11:5; emphasis added).

What does it mean to be translated? The Greek verb used in Hebrews 11:5 is metatithemi and can mean “to effect a change in state or condition” as well as “to convey from one place to another.”[37] Because of its association with the biblical story of Enoch, by the time of the Prophet Joseph Smith the word translated was understood not only to mean “conveyed from one place to another” but specifically “removed to heaven without dying.”[38] It is noteworthy that when discussing the doctrine of translation, latter—day scripture includes important information concerning changes to the condition of an individual’s body (see 3 Nephi 28:7, 37–38).

...

The Lord explained that John the Beloved would continue his ministry until the Second Coming (see D&C 7:3). At the time of the Savior’s triumphant return, translated beings will “receive a greater change” (3 Nephi 28:40; see also v. 39), namely instantaneous resurrection. The Savior instructed the Three Nephites that when He would return in His glory, they would be “changed in the twinkling of an eye from mortality to immortality” (3 Nephi 28:8). At that point they would “be received into the kingdom of the Father to go no more out, but to dwell with God eternally in the heavens” (3 Nephi 28:40), and there they would experience a “fulness of joy” (3 Nephi 28:10)."

John the Beloved in Latter-day Scripture (D&C 42) | Religious Studies Center
 
  • Agree
Reactions: He is the way
Upvote 0

Daniel Marsh

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2015
9,749
2,615
Livingston County, MI, US
✟199,553.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
These verses were about John the Baptist who came down from heaven. Whether John the beloved is in heaven or not we do not know. Elijah went up to heaven after he was translated. Perhaps translated beings can serve both in heaven and on earth.

Nothing in the text says John the Baptist.
 
Upvote 0

He is the way

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
8,103
359
Murray
✟113,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
Nothing in the text says John the Baptist.
72 The messenger who visited us on this occasion and conferred this Priesthood upon us, said that his name was John, the same that is called John the Baptist in the New Testament
 
Upvote 0

Daniel Marsh

Well-Known Member
Jun 28, 2015
9,749
2,615
Livingston County, MI, US
✟199,553.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
72 The messenger who visited us on this occasion and conferred this Priesthood upon us, said that his name was John, the same that is called John the Baptist in the New Testament

I had 2 Thessalonians 2 and post 111 in mind. If that is from 3 Nephi 28, I over looked that.
3 Nephi 28

Please post the full text of what you had in mind, thanks daniel
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

He is the way

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
8,103
359
Murray
✟113,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
I had 2 Thessalonians 2 and post 111 in mind. If that is from 3 Nephi 28, I over looked that.
3 Nephi 28

Please post the full text of what you had in mind, thanks daniel
I thought you were talking about John the Baptist who conferred the Aaronic priesthood on Joseph and Oliver. Were you talking about John the beloved? We believe that John the beloved was translated so he could remain on the earth and bring others to Christ.
 
Upvote 0

Hrairoo

Prayerfully Searching
Aug 30, 2020
135
119
New York
✟14,563.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Constitution
I thought you were talking about John the Baptist who conferred the Aaronic priesthood on Joseph and Oliver. Were you talking about John the beloved? We believe that John the beloved was translated so he could remain on the earth and bring others to Christ.
D&C 27:12
"12 And also with Peter, and James, and John, whom I have sent unto you, by whom I have ordained you and confirmed you to be apostles, and especial witnesses of my name, and bear the keys of your ministry and of the same things which I revealed unto them;"

I guess John decided to pop by and hand over the keys. He might have been able to hand them off sooner but you know, he foretold the Great Apostasy of the church and he couldn't let everyone down.
 
Upvote 0

mmksparbud

Well-Known Member
Dec 3, 2011
17,312
6,821
73
Las Vegas
✟255,978.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
TRANSLA'TION, n. L. translatio.

1. The act of removing or conveying from one place to another removal as the translation of a disease from the foot to the breast.
2. The removal of a bishop from one see to another.
3. The removal of a person to heaven without subjecting him to death.
4. The act of turning into another language interpretation as the translation of Virgil or Homer.
5. That which is produced by turning into another language a version. We have a good translation of the Scriptures.

Nowhere does translation mean, to stay in the same place. You can not be translated and remain on earth! Basic. Translation means to be taken to heaven without seing death. If JS had been a prophet, he would not have used that word and then say John was left on the esrth. How can yuou be taken to heaven, but remain on earth? There is very little of what JS write that makes any sense at all. John died. Died so well thst there are several places thst claim he is buried there. Had he lived, there wouold not be even 1 tomb
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Hrairoo
Upvote 0

He is the way

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
8,103
359
Murray
✟113,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
D&C 27:12
"12 And also with Peter, and James, and John, whom I have sent unto you, by whom I have ordained you and confirmed you to be apostles, and especial witnesses of my name, and bear the keys of your ministry and of the same things which I revealed unto them;"

I guess John decided to pop by and hand over the keys. He might have been able to hand them off sooner but you know, he foretold the Great Apostasy of the church and he couldn't let everyone down.
It seems to me that there are not that many people willing to give their will to God. They would rather do as they please.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Hrairoo
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

He is the way

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2018
8,103
359
Murray
✟113,072.00
Country
United States
Faith
Mormon
Marital Status
Married
TRANSLA'TION, n. L. translatio.

1. The act of removing or conveying from one place to another removal as the translation of a disease from the foot to the breast.
2. The removal of a bishop from one see to another.
3. The removal of a person to heaven without subjecting him to death.
4. The act of turning into another language interpretation as the translation of Virgil or Homer.
5. That which is produced by turning into another language a version. We have a good translation of the Scriptures.

Nowhere does translation mean, to stay in the same place. You can not be translated and remain on earth! Basic. Translation means to be taken to heaven without seing death. If JS had been a prophet, he would not have used that word and then say John was left on the esrth. How can yuou be taken to heaven, but remain on earth? There is very little of what JS write that makes any sense at all. John died. Died so well thst there are several places thst claim he is buried there. Had he lived, there wouold not be even 1 tomb
trans•late
(trænsˈleɪt, trænz-, ˈtræns leɪt, ˈtrænz-)

v. -lat•ed, -lat•ing. v.t.
1. to turn from one language into another or from a foreign language into one's own.
2. to change the form, condition, or nature of; convert: to translate thought into action.
3. to explain in terms that can be more easily understood; interpret.
4. to bear, carry, or move from one place or position to another; transfer.
5. to cause (a body) to move without rotation or angular displacement.
6. to retransmit or forward (a telegraphic message), as by a relay.
7. to move (a bishop) from one see to another.
8. to convey or remove to heaven without natural death.
9. to exalt in spiritual or emotional ecstasy.
10. to cause to undergo genetic translation.

v.i.
11. to provide or make a translation; act as translator.
12. to admit of translation.

From: translated
 
Upvote 0