LDS The Claim

dzheremi said:

Nonsense. I don't believe that any such 'ordinances' or whatever can add anything to Christ's mysterious and glorious resurrection, and that is what grants us eternal life, not the actions of some Mormon teenagers who are wasting their young spiritual lives getting dunked in a mechanical fashion over and over in the name of an endless list of dead people.

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Then we will just have to agree to disagree.

mmksparbud said:

Strange that the translation of others has been mentioned in scripture, but not that of John, Esp. when the bible expressly says, Jesus did not say John would not die.
So, John was changed into a translated being and left on earth. He was (is ) a Priest. How can the Priesthood have been removed if these 4 beings had it? They were left on earth to porotect the Priesthood? They did a lousy job of it for it became corrupted under their watch. 4 beings coulodn't keep that from happening when One Angel could destroy an army of 1000's!! After being translated, are we not then higher than the angels? They've done exactly as much good as though they had not been here at all!! Tbe priesthood was only taken from men---what priesthood was that? For there is not one single word about any apostle or diciples being designated a priest and the only priest mentioned is Jesus Christ. Jesus is is our High Priest in the heavenly Temple and we all haver been named priests in this world and the next--so what exactly was taken? There is no Temple except the heavenly Temple from which our High Priest is officiating so no esartly temple for any earthly Priests. The only nofficials mentioned are bishops and deacons , etc---no priests mentioned.

The work of the Priests was to tend to the temple. To officiate over the cleansing of sins was the work of the High Priest alone---and we have one. All that the priests were to do, preparing and cleaning the vessels of the temple, presiding over the offerings, none oif that was being done anymoire for there was no more temple, certainly not after it had been burned down.They had nothing to do after it burned down. No more Jewish Priests---never had there been any Chnristian priests set up. There is no official record of a single Chnristian Priest and what his duty was as was written for the Jewish Priests.
So what is it that these beings are doing when God created the angels as His Messengers. They are the ones that God has used throghout history to direct, protect, guide, and watch over us? Little chikldren even have their own angels also. So what were they left here to do? Nothing. All translated beings have remained in the pure air of heaven itself. They do not come into contact with this earth, and neither has Jesus. They have been here only through visions and dreams and will not touch this sin ridden world again until it is renewed.

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As I said the priesthood was taken from man. Elijah and the others are no longer human, they are translated beings.

dzheremi said:

What a copout. This idea is what the founding of your entire religion is based on, yet you openly admit that you don't know the relevant details, "God knows"?

Funny how you'll pass the buck to your God instead of answering a straightforward question (which chevyontheriver is right, you really should know), but when Jesus Christ, Who is Lord and God of the Christians, says that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church, you (thanks to JS) say "Hold on; not so fast there, Jesus..."

It couldn't be more clear that you follow Joseph Smith, not Jesus Christ. Too bad for you then that Joseph Smith needed to follow Jesus Christ too, and yet did not do so. You need a better role model, which could be literally any Christian of note from the past 2,000 years, since literally any form of Christianity is better than being a pseudo-Christian cult like Mormonism.

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If I knew what year it happened I would have told you.

He is the way said:

If I knew what year it happened I would have told you.

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What basis do you have to believe it if you have no actual historical evidence to back it up? Because Christians can point to an unbroken line of believers in every place that Christianity is historically attested to and still practiced, which disproves the idea that the Church was ever 'taken from the earth' or whatever.

You have what in response? "Oh, that's the apostate church, so that doesn't count" or some such? Based on what? When and were was this supposed apostasy? Again, there are lines of bishops dating back to the founding of Christianity in the major centers of the early Church (so not just Rome or Jerusalem, but also Alexandria, Antioch, Mesopotamia, etc.), which is actual evidence regardless of who disagrees with what church's claim to those centers. So we know that the Church actually existed for all this time that the Mormon narrative would say it didn't, but when push comes to shove the Mormon belief that it didn't is literally based on nothing. You can't point to any one time or place wherein this 'apostasy' supposedly began. Why not? Why believe in it, then? Because your religion tells you to, but apparently doesn't give you any details on it?

That's horrible. If were a college course, you'd rightly demand a refund. Why don't you hold your religion's leaders to account for passing on such pathetic attempts at apologetics instead of arming you with truth, or at least something that can actually be defended with real-world evidence?

He is the way said:

Many churches didn't have any priesthood linage, therefore there was no transfer of the priesthood.

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It is clearly spelled out for us all, friend. As you can see all Christians are part of the Priesthood. As such it was never lost, nor can it be restored.

1. 1 Peter 2:5
   you yourselves, as living stones, are built up as a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood and to offer spiritual sacrifices that are acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
   
2. 1 Peter 2:9
   But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people of his own, so that you may proclaim the virtues of the one who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

He is the way said:

I can trace my priesthood line of authority back to Jesus Christ. The priesthood is conferred on another person by someone holding the keys to that priesthood authority from God.

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How did Joseph and whoever was with him get their priesthood???

I need to sign off now, my wife says so.

Have a good night to all.

What's the funniest thing about all of this, is that the priesthood restoration was added into documents and the Book of Commandments later on. It was why Oliver Cowdery and the Whitmers left the LDS church; these men were acting on the basis that the church was a scam, doing things to get more money(Cowdery trying to make extra cash with notes that had already been paid) and boost their own presence and authority(Hiram Page with his seer stone). Joseph Smith was trying to assert his control and dominance over the church by editing into the books events that hadn't happened(or at least, they weren't recorded in earlier versions of the Doctrine and Covenants).

Seriously, there is so much information control going on in the LDS church, they likely don't know that David Whitmer went off to start his own church(after being one of the "three witnesses" of the gold plates) and declared himself a prophet, while saying all these nasty things about Joseph Smith. You'll likely hear from Mormons that David Whitmer NEVER denied his testimony of having seen the plates(having seen them with a "spiritual eye" while hefting them in a box) yet they'll ignore or dismiss his testimony of his own authority as a prophet and that Joseph was a false prophet.

He is the way said:

As I said the priesthood was taken from man. Elijah and the others are no longer human, they are translated beings.

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But why taken from man, when there is no record it was given to any diciple or apostle or ever mentioned except for Jesus being our High Priest. No temple meant there were no priests. Then there were only churches, in homes and no priests, just deacons bishops and so forth. You can't take away something that there is no record of bein given.
If they are translated beings, why are they left here on earth? Translation, by it's very name, means taken to heaven. Because they are going to heaven, that nessessitates a change in the body for man can not enter into heaven. If being left on earth, they need not change for they are here and can live on here as long as God wants them to.

Hrairoo said:

What's the funniest thing about all of this, is that the priesthood restoration was added into documents and the Book of Commandments later on. It was why Oliver Cowdery and the Whitmers left the LDS church; these men were acting on the basis that the church was a scam, doing things to get more money(Cowdery trying to make extra cash with notes that had already been paid) and boost their own presence and authority(Hiram Page with his seer stone). Joseph Smith was trying to assert his control and dominance over the church by editing into the books events that hadn't happened(or at least, they weren't recorded in earlier versions of the Doctrine and Covenants).

Seriously, there is so much information control going on in the LDS church, they likely don't know that David Whitmer went off to start his own church(after being one of the "three witnesses" of the gold plates) and declared himself a prophet, while saying all these nasty things about Joseph Smith. You'll likely hear from Mormons that David Whitmer NEVER denied his testimony of having seen the plates(having seen them with a "spiritual eye" while hefting them in a box) yet they'll ignore or dismiss his testimony of his own authority as a prophet and that Joseph was a false prophet.

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It is no secret that David Whitmer left the church, we all know it, but his testimony stayed with him:

"It having been represented by one John Murphy, of Polo, Caldwell County, Mo., that I, in a conversation with him last summer, denied my testimony as one of the three witnesses to the BOOK OF MORMON. To the end, therefore, that he may understand me now, if he did not then; and that the world may know the truth, I wish now, standing as it were, in the very sunset of life, and in the fear of God, once for all to make this public statement: That I have never at any time denied that testimony or any part thereof, which has so long since been published with that Book, as one of the three witnesses. Those who know me best, well know that I have always adhered to that testimony. And that no man may be misled or doubt my present views in regard to the same, I do again affirm the truth of all of my statements, as then made and published. He that hath an ear to hear, let him hear; it was no delusion!"

From: David Whitmer - Wikipedia

There is also this:
(Book of Mormon | Preface 8 Witnesses:Heading - 1)

THE TESTIMONY OF EIGHT WITNESSES

1 BE IT KNOWN unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

CHRISTIAN WHITMER
HIRAM PAGE
JACOB WHITMER
JOSEPH SMITH, SEN.
PETER WHITMER, JUN.
HYRUM SMITH
JOHN WHITMER
SAMUEL H. SMITH

Daniel Marsh said:

How did Joseph and whoever was with him get their priesthood???

I need to sign off now, my wife says so.

Have a good night to all.

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(Pearl of Great Price | JS-History 1:68 - 73)

68 We still continued the work of translation, when, in the ensuing month (May, 1829), we on a certain day went into the woods to pray and inquire of the Lord respecting baptism for the remission of sins, that we found mentioned in the translation of the plates. While we were thus employed, praying and calling upon the Lord, a messenger from heaven descended in a cloud of light, and having laid his hands upon us, he ordained us, saying:
69 Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah, I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness.
70 He said this Aaronic Priesthood had not the power of laying on hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, but that this should be conferred on us hereafter; and he commanded us to go and be baptized, and gave us directions that I should baptize Oliver Cowdery, and that afterwards he should baptize me.
71 Accordingly we went and were baptized. I baptized him first, and afterwards he baptized me—after which I laid my hands upon his head and ordained him to the Aaronic Priesthood, and afterwards he laid his hands on me and ordained me to the same Priesthood—for so we were commanded.
72 The messenger who visited us on this occasion and conferred this Priesthood upon us, said that his name was John, the same that is called John the Baptist in the New Testament, and that he acted under the direction of Peter, James and John, who held the keys of the Priesthood of Melchizedek, which Priesthood, he said, would in due time be conferred on us, and that I should be called the first Elder of the Church, and he (Oliver Cowdery) the second. It was on the fifteenth day of May, 1829, that we were ordained under the hand of this messenger, and baptized.
73 Immediately on our coming up out of the water after we had been baptized, we experienced great and glorious blessings from our Heavenly Father. No sooner had I baptized Oliver Cowdery, than the Holy Ghost fell upon him, and he stood up and prophesied many things which should shortly come to pass. And again, so soon as I had been baptized by him, I also had the spirit of prophecy, when, standing up, I prophesied concerning the rise of this Church, and many other things connected with the Church, and this generation of the children of men. We were filled with the Holy Ghost, and rejoiced in the God of our salvation.

Like I said, the whitewashing of the church's history and information control for the members is pretty extreme. As a member, I didn't know what I didn't know until I looked beyond what the church was spoonfeeding me.

Look up old pamphlets about David Whitmer's church. He called himself a prophet and said Joseph Smith was a false prophet. I think that calls everything he said previously about the Mormon church into question.

By the way, there is no surviving record of a document with the individual signatures from the 11 witnesses. It's all in Oliver Cowdery's handwriting on the printer's copy of the manuscript. That's it. In 1838, 5 out of the remaining living 9 witnesses, left the LDS church, just 7 years after witnessing for it. That's not insignificant, even though Mormons try to dismiss it.

Hrairoo said:

Like I said, the whitewashing of the church's history and information control for the members is pretty extreme. As a member, I didn't know what I didn't know until I looked beyond what the church was spoonfeeding me.

Look up old pamphlets about David Whitmer's church. He called himself a prophet and said Joseph Smith was a false prophet. I think that calls everything he said previously about the Mormon church into question.

By the way, there is no surviving record of a document with the individual signatures from the 11 witnesses. It's all in Oliver Cowdery's handwriting on the printer's copy of the manuscript. That's it. In 1838, 5 out of the remaining living 9 witnesses, left the LDS church, just 7 years after witnessing for it. That's not insignificant, even though Mormons try to dismiss it.

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A lot of people left Jesus Christ too. Peter denied Him three times, Judas betrayed Him That is not a good indication that He was wrong:

(New Testament | John 6:66 - 69)

66 ¶ From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

I know why the printer's copy of the manuscript is all in Oliver Cowdery's handwriting. He made a copy of the manuscript so the original would not be lost.

Genius. Good thing all we have left of that is the printer's copy.

And I guess that's why Joseph Smith said he'd done a better job than Jesus did of keeping his church together. Because he thought he was New-Christ.

He is the way said:

I know why the printer's copy of the manuscript is all in Oliver Cowdery's handwriting. He made a copy of the manuscript so the original would not be lost.

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He made a copy...a copy...so that the original would not be lost?

dzheremi said:

He made a copy...a copy...so that the original would not be lost?

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Yah, why not protect the original??? Seeing as there was only one of those. Yet---they do not accept that the bible is not corrupted because those saints copied the bible, at the cost of their own lives. And there were many, many copies. They do not hold their own writings to the same criteria that they do the scriptures!

Hrairoo said:

Genius. Good thing all we have left of that is the printer's copy.

And I guess that's why Joseph Smith said he'd done a better job than Jesus did of keeping his church together. Because he thought he was New-Christ.

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Joseph Smith never claimed to be the New-Christ. Some people have a vendetta against the LDS Church for no good reason.

He is the way said:

Joseph Smith never claimed to be the New-Christ. Some people have a vendetta against the LDS Church for no good reason.

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You just compared him to Christ in the post I was responding to. And he has spoken about how he was better than Jesus Christ. Sorry if the exaggeration threw you. It just appears to me that JS thought very highly of himself, and you comparing his persecution with that suffered by Christ speaks to some equivalence in your perspective. That's what I was getting at.

Hrairoo said:

You just compared him to Christ in the post I was responding to. And he has spoken about how he was better than Jesus Christ. Sorry if the exaggeration threw you. It just appears to me that JS thought very highly of himself, and you comparing his persecution with that suffered by Christ speaks to some equivalence in your perspective. That's what I was getting at.

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I wasn't comparing him to Christ, I was teaching a principle. Jesus taught many things and people still refuse to believe what He taught. Many Christians want a get out of jail FREE card. They don't see that card needs to be EARNED:

(New Testament | 1 Peter 1:16 - 22)

16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
(New Testament | Revelation 20:12 - 13)

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

That being said Joseph Smith was not perfect and he did make a boastful remark about Christ which I believe was wrong. Peter also made statements which were wrong. Jesus even called Peter Satan at one point. I am not comparing Joseph Smith to Peter, I am just making a point. I hope you can see the difference.

He is the way said:

That being said Joseph Smith was not perfect and he did make a boastful remark about Christ which I believe was wrong. Peter also made statements which were wrong. Jesus even called Peter Satan at one point. I am not comparing Joseph Smith to Peter, I am just making a point. I hope you can see the difference.

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Oh! I see! Thank you so much for helping me see that there is a difference between making a comparison versus just drawing an analogy between one thing and (another) for the purposes of explanation or clarification. (Btw, that IS the definition of compare, so...)

It makes sense now, what you were saying. So, it means nothing that we don't have physical copies nor photos of the original signatures on the testimonies of the witnesses, it means nothing that several of the witnesses later used odd language to describe their experience that muddies the waters on whether it was a genuine, physical experience or just a visionary/spiritual one, and it doesn't matter that all of those men, except Joseph's direct family members left his church and declared him a false prophet while founding their own churches or joining other churches. It doesn't prove he was wrong, it actually proves he was right. Just like Jesus.

He is the way said:

Joseph Smith never claimed to be the New-Christ. Some people have a vendetta against the LDS Church for no good reason.

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Hey, all I'm asking is when your great apostasy happened. There doesn't seem to be an answer. And yet without a great apostasy there is no basis for the LDS,