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The circular argument of God and miracles

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Let's say that Bob and Alice go to the beach and see someone walking on water. Bob comments, "Wow, I don't understand how this is happening as it appears to defy all laws of physics. I wonder how he is doing it?"

Alice answers, "God is causing him to be able to walk on water."

Bob says, "But, first we must establish that God exists. How do you know God exists?"

Alice answer, "Just look at all the miraculous events in our world."



Anyone have a response to this?

Bob's position seems more intellectually honest: admission of ignorance to the cause of his observation. He honestly doesn't know how it is happening and he readily admits as such.

My response would be that you need to be careful when you imply that circular reasoning in itself is problematic apart from the methodology that we either find reliable or not. For example, discovering some form of consistency and then attempting to predict some unknown factors based on the assumption that such consistency would apply in this particular case... is an example of circular reasoning.

We can't focus on "circularity" as some deficiency, because our existence is that of "pragmatic agnosticism". We don't really care as to what's "true or not" when it comes to the ontology, as much as we care whether something is contradicting the consistently observable attributes that we can agree on. Hence our "methodological circularity" generally stipulates some demonstrable reliability within such circularity for it to be a viable method.

That's why I wouldn't quite focus so much on whether something is circular, as much as whether it's useful or reliable. I know it's a seemingly pompous answer ;) , but I think it's important to make that distinction before some TAG proponent walks in and points out the same and claims that you have no justification for your reason because it's circular in nature, and they do, because it's a revelation from a more reliable God.
 
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ToddNotTodd

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Just a little off the top of my head:
  • The beginning of the universe;
  • The Planck length;
  • Primitive semi-radius tachyons;
  • Reason for the existence of the Universe;
  • Cosmic Fine Tuning;
  • Biological information;
  • Objective Morality.

  • The beginning of the universe - Does not point to a god
  • The Planck length - Does not point to a god
  • Primitive semi-radius tachyons - Does not point to a god
  • Reason for the existence of the Universe - Does not point to a god
  • Cosmic Fine Tuning - Does not point to a god
  • Biological information - Does not point to a god
  • Objective Morality - Does not exist
 
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Anguspure

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  • The beginning of the universe - Does not point to a god
  • The Planck length - Does not point to a god
  • Primitive semi-radius tachyons - Does not point to a god
  • Reason for the existence of the Universe - Does not point to a god
  • Cosmic Fine Tuning - Does not point to a god
  • Biological information - Does not point to a god
  • Objective Morality - Does not exist
Ana the 1st asked for evidence of the non-physical, not of some god.
Nevertheless all of the above do indeed provide evidence for a supernatural mind.
 
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Anguspure

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A couple of things:

1. There's no reason to assume determinism. It doesn't naturally follow from materialism.
2. Barring solipsism or perhaps universal delusion, my thoughts reflect reality when corroborated, to the extent which anyone needs it to.
3. No one bases their worldview on the idea that they're 100% correct in their views.

So I see this as a non-issue. An argument based on word play that doesn't signify anything.
If I am to beleive your position how can I know that this irrational post reflects any truth since your mind clearly operates from an irrational basis and is simply the product of random mutation and chance?
Its a good thing then that I don't agree with these arguments and as a result I am able to detect a more advanced form of the same self defeating argument when I see it.
 
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Anguspure

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How do you go from "Universe had a beginning" to "therefore supernatural mind"?
I had a lot of trouble with this for a while as well. I could see that the universe with a beginning has a cause but why must it be a mind.

Among the deduced qualities belonging to the uncaused cause that necesarrily exists if all things had a beginning is that it is immaterial, spaceless, timeless (at least until it causes time to exist), all powerful, devoid of entropy, and is personal. But why personal?

The answer as I have come to accept it is that a mindless complete thing, an uncaused cause that simply exists in a timeless state prior to the beginning of the universe would have no reason to change.

Like some sort of object just sitting there not influenced by anything nor influencing anything, no energy acting on physical laws.

As such it is only if this thing chooses to change that it will change. This points to a mind as it is only a person who chooses something, choice is a hallmark of the mind.

Thus one of the qualities of the uncaused cause is that it is a mind, a person, it can say "I AM".
 
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miknik5

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Then it remains unknown. Full stop.

Saying that, 'Therefore X is the cause" is the clearest argument from ignorance I've ever seen.
Only to the one who is ignorant...
You have decided that I am the one who is...
 
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miknik5

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A couple of things:

1. There's no reason to assume determinism. It doesn't naturally follow from materialism.
2. Barring solipsism or perhaps universal delusion, my thoughts reflect reality when corroborated, to the extent which anyone needs it to.
3. No one bases their worldview on the idea that they're 100% correct in their views.

So I see this as a non-issue. An argument based on word play that doesn't signify anything.

Why?
Can't someone be 100% correct in anything?

And in this thread, if an eye witness gives an account of something, can't we trust that he/she would have the integrity to tell the truth about that something?
 
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miknik5

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  • The beginning of the universe - Does not point to a god
  • The Planck length - Does not point to a god
  • Primitive semi-radius tachyons - Does not point to a god
  • Reason for the existence of the Universe - Does not point to a god
  • Cosmic Fine Tuning - Does not point to a god
  • Biological information - Does not point to a god
  • Objective Morality - Does not exist
Your words sir sound very firm as if you believe that you are 100% correct.

And yet, you aren't...
 
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ToddNotTodd

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If I am to beleive your position how can I know that this irrational post reflects any truth since your mind clearly operates from an irrational basis and is simply the product of random mutation and chance?

1. It's a non sequitur to suggest that my post is irrational simply because it comes from a brain. It's a complete non-starter.
2. I'm pretty sure that no rational person falls for the "simply the product of random mutation and chance" line anymore. Arguments from incredulity are fallacious.

Its a good thing then that I don't agree with these arguments and as a result I am able to detect a more advanced form of the same self defeating argument when I see it.

Except you can't demonstrate it...
 
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Anguspure

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devolved

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Among the deduced qualities belonging to the uncaused cause that necesarrily exists if all things had a beginning is that it is immaterial, spaceless, timeless (at least until it causes time to exist), all powerful, devoid of entropy, and is personal. But why personal?

I don't think that you can justify any of these attributes to the cause as a necessary preconditions, because we don't define what something is by something is not.

For example, if I've asked you to describe Presiden't Obama, you wouldn't go by saying... well "He isn't Bill Clinton, and he isn't from Europe, and he isn't driving a ferrari, and he isn't a 16th century monarch".

That's what you are doing when you posing non-attributes like "immaterial", "spaceless", "timeless", "devoid of entropy" etc. You are not describing anything or anyone in particular. You are just describing what it's not, and that's how we generally describe things that don't exist. But, let's move on...

The answer as I have come to accept it is that a mindless complete thing, an uncaused cause that simply exists in a timeless state prior to the beginning of the universe would have no reason to change. Like some sort of object just sitting there not influenced by anything nor influencing anything, no energy acting on physical laws.

Hmm. A mind is a process though. It's not a random and unconstrained firing of neurons that results in a "decision". It's a process of taking some input as a communication, and then taking that input through a sequence of steps in order to contextualize "the decision" or a "choice" as far as what to do.

What would be the "input" for your cosmic mind with nothing else around? What would prompt it's decisions? What would the choice be in context of nothing else existing?

As such it is only if this thing chooses to change that it will change. This points to a mind as it is only a person who chooses something, choice is a hallmark of the mind.

You realize that thought process of the mind is a cause-effect process, right? Uncaused minds would have uncaused thoughts, which would either be extremely random, or wouldn't progress anywhere.

Hence, we couldn't justifiable call such mechanism a mind. All minds we know follow causal patterns.

Thus one of the qualities of the uncaused cause is that it is a mind, a person, it can say "I AM".

I don't think you've thought it through thoroughly enough.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Some points about the thread - we look to natural (materialistic) explanations first because they're most likely to be testable and to correspond to an existing body of knowledge about the world. An 'explanation' that raises more questions than it answers doesn't explain; an explanation that makes no predictions isn't testable. But also, you can't explain the unexplained with the inexplicable.

Someone can be 100% correct in analytic contexts such as logic or mathematics, but can't be certain of being 100% correct about situations in the world (states of affairs). Whether we can trust an eyewitness to be honest or not has no bearing on whether their report is an accurate representation of what they observed. Eyewitness reports are unreliable due to flaws in observation, perception, processing, and memory storage and retrieval (reconstruction).

If one accepts that our thought processes are the result of evolution (survival of the fittest), it seems to me that this implies that they have a fundamental relation to reality; evolution is a process that is driven by reality, it responds to reality; reality is predators, prey, competitors, mates, food, hiding places, vantage points, etc. Our thought processes evolved to facilitate our responses to these selection pressures. This doesn't necessarily mean that they are well-suited to our current context, they're the product of earlier times; but the idea that because "our thought processes are evolved for survival of the fittest, there is no reason to suppose that anything that anybody thinks reflects truth or reality", clearly can't be correct.
 
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Anguspure

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Because most would be arguments from incredulity. Except for the argument from objective morality, which doesn't exist.
Incredulity has nothing to do with it.
For example it is quite reasonable to consider that before the natural world began to exist that the natural world did not exist, and therefore what did exist (given that something that caused the universe to exist did exist) is supernatural.
 
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Anguspure

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That's what you are doing when you posing non-attributes like "immaterial", "spaceless", "timeless", "devoid of entropy" etc. You are not describing anything or anyone in particular. You are just describing what it's not, and that's how we generally describe things that don't exist.

The positive description of the supernatural thing caused the universe to exist is that it is the Uncaused Cause.
Given that the thing, whatever it is exists (the causeless cause) then it is quite reasonable to provide further identifying descriptors about that thing in terms of whatever we can know about it including the traits that it does not exhibit.

In this way we can perhaps narrow down the nature of the Creator to being this as opposed to that. So, for example we could consider that none of the gods of pantheism meet the criteria because they posses traits that the creator does not posses.

A mind is a process though.
It's not a random and unconstrained firing of neurons that results in a "decision". It's a process of taking some input as a communication, and then taking that input through a sequence of steps in order to contextualize "the decision" or a "choice" as far as what to do.

What would be the "input" for your cosmic mind with nothing else around? What would prompt it's decisions? What would the choice be in context of nothing else existing?

Why must the mind take in communication or input before it does something? A mind with a (free) will is capable of having a thought or making a decision without any external input whatsoever.

I think you are confusing computing with consciousness. The process you describe is one of computing where inputs determine outputs, where it never thinks about anything but merely crunches data through a pre-determined algorithm.

The mind on the other hand is always thinking about things including abstract things that exist nowhere but in the mind itself. Thus a mind can exist and function within its own context without the need for any input whatsoever.
The uncaused cause certainly exists within its own context as that is the necessary nature of its being in that it is the thing that exists necessarily that is the cause of all causes

What prompted its decision is it own will, something that is also a hallmark of consciousness as opposed to computing.


You realize that thought process of the mind is a cause-effect process, right? Uncaused minds would have uncaused thoughts, which would either be extremely random, or wouldn't progress anywhere.

Hence, we couldn't justifiable call such mechanism a mind. All minds we know follow causal patterns.

Causality is not an essential precursor to mind. The minds we know follow causal patterns because they exist within time. A mind existing timelessly is not impossible if difficult to conceive of and only requires that the mind interacts with time at the point which it creates time within the universe.

But perhaps you are correct. The mind of the uncaused cause is completely unique, as it must be, and so we should describe this person in a unique way.

A curious insight from the Torah relates that the God of Israel described Himself to Moses as "I AM".
So where we humans will say "I think therefore I am.", the uncaused cause simply says "I AM".
 
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