The circular argument of God and miracles

[Loudmouth]

Again there is no reason then for you to argue with the witnesses who testify otherwise

I wasn't aware that men are incapable of inventing stories.

Are you saying that men are incapable of writing fictional stories?

 

[Loudmouth]

That there are other religions? Certainly not. But the existence of other religions doesn't suggest that all are equally unpersuasive.

How do you explain the fact that you are unconvinced by other religious texts that make the same exact claims as the Bible?

For example, there were many witnesses that saw the Golden Tablets given to Joseph Smith by the angel Moroni.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Mormon_witnesses

Do you just dismiss these witnesses?

That may be a thesis that makes sense to Atheists who are revolted by the thought of any religions beliefs at all, but it seems obvious to me that, as with other intellectual concepts that are presented to us, we judge some to be credible and others not to be so.

We are revolted by the thought of simply believing something to be true because we want it to be true.

 

[miknik5]

How do you explain the fact that you are unconvinced by other religious texts that make the same exact claims as the Bible?

For example, there were many witnesses that saw the Golden Tablets given to Joseph Smith by the angel Moroni.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Mormon_witnesses

Do you just dismiss these witnesses?



We are revolted by the thought of simply believing something to be true because we want it to be true.

Nobody needs to add to the Testimony of Jesus and when one does it makes manifest that they do not fully understand the magnitude of the story of Gods salvation in by and through His Son and His Son alone

 

[Loudmouth]

Nobody needs to add to the Testimony of Jesus . . .

It's the claims of men.

and when one does it makes manifest that they do not fully understand the magnitude of the story of Gods salvation in by and through His Son and His Son alone

Do you fully understand the Quran? What about the Book of Mormon? What about the hindu Vedas?

 

[keith99]

How do you explain the fact that you are unconvinced by other religious texts that make the same exact claims as the Bible?

For example, there were many witnesses that saw the Golden Tablets given to Joseph Smith by the angel Moroni.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Mormon_witnesses

Do you just dismiss these witnesses?



We are revolted by the thought of simply believing something to be true because we want it to be true.

But all the witnesses were Mormons! Why should we accept their biased testimony. It is totally different with Christianity... Oh wait!

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

We are revolted by the thought of simply believing something to be true because we want it to be true.

I'm not revolted by this - I think most of us do this to some extent even when we're aware of the risk of confirmation and expectation bias. I find the extent of religious god beliefs disturbing; they're way beyond the effects of confirmation and expectation bias.

 

[quatona]

No it wasn't clear.

Well, now it is.

I would think an important piece of the puzzle would be having that first and foremost in ones mind when they enter into a discussion with others about God and His existence

I never discuss about "God´s existence".

For as you know without faith it is impossible to please God for one would have to First believe that He is and the rewarder of all who diligently seek Him

That´s all fine and dandy, but it´s completely irrelevant for your question and my response ("Hard feelings?" - "No, not towards strangers on the internet.").

 

[DogmaHunter]

That's your (de facto) religion. Don't be outraged that I have another.

It's a "religious belief", that books are written by humans? :-O

Sure, but I have assessed each of them and decided if any are credible and convincing, whereas you have merely dismissed any and all out of hand.

Ow, another mind reader..... great.

I've read both the quran and the bible dude.
And somehow, I doubt that you have read every religious text out there.

That's only very loosely so. They do deal with the supernatural, and then they diverge.

It's the supernatural bits that I am refering to.

But here's the difference. I take your non-belief for granted. That's your choice. I'm not starting threads or making posts attempting to talk you out of your POV or to ridicule it or you for holding to it. You, on the other hand, are on a quest to show me "why" I should reach the same conclusion you have.

That has nothing whatsoever to do with the point at hand, and in fact just seems to serve as a distraction.

 

[miknik5]

Well, now it is.

I never discuss about "God´s existence".


That´s all fine and dandy, but it´s completely irrelevant for your question and my response ("Hard feelings?" - "No, not towards strangers on the internet.").

This indeed is a website
And the discussions sir may be between two but there are many other ears listening in.

And what is closed to you may not be closed to others

Though we may be strangers there is only one purpose in an Christian called into this ministry of reconciliation

And that is to point all "strangers" to Christ so that what is far may be brought near

Even on a website

I guess to be clear sir. This is not about you and it isn't about me.
It's about bringing the Truth of The Gospel to all so that those who have ears to hear may hear

 

[miknik5]

It's a "religious belief", that books are written by humans? :-O



Ow, another mind reader..... great.

I've read both the quran and the bible dude.
And somehow, I doubt that you have read every religious text out there.



It's the supernatural bits that I am refering to.



That has nothing whatsoever to do with the point at hand, and in fact just seems to serve as a distraction.

It is only by the Holy Spirit that man can discern The True Things of God that can only be known by His Spirit

 

[quatona]

This indeed is a website
And the discussions sir may be between two but there are many other ears listening in.

And what is closed to you may not be closed to others

Though we may be strangers there is only one purpose in an Christian called into this ministry of reconciliation

And that is to point all "strangers" to Christ so that what is far may be brought near

Even on a website

I guess to be clear sir. This is not about you and it isn't about me.
It's about bringing the Truth of The Gospel to all so that those who have ears to hear may hear

Well, for you this may be about proselytizing and evangelizing, but that´s not my problem, and I hardly could care less. Just so we´re clear.
And, btw., where I come from it´s considered poor style to pretend talking to a person while actually propagating and appealing to the audience. So I´d rather you don´t instrumentalize me for your purposes. Thanks.

 

[DogmaHunter]

It is only by the Holy Spirit that man can discern The True Things of God that can only be known by His Spirit

Muslims and Hindu's disagree.

How do you propose that I, an outsider who is neither muslim or hindu or christian, differentiate between the lot of you?

 

[Albion]

It's a "religious belief", that books are written by humans? :-O

As I'm sure you know, I was referring to Atheism.

Ow, another mind reader..... great.

Oh, you think that's incorrect, do you?. Then tell us which of the world's great (or lesser) religions you DO personally believe to be correct--Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, whatever. Your postings so far certainly have painted a different picture.

 

[DogmaHunter]

As I'm sure you know, I was referring to Atheism.

That makes even less sense.

Atheism is not a belief. It's the exact opposite.
You need to believe something to be a theist.
Not believing that something, is what results in atheism.

There is nothing you must believe, to be an atheist.

Just like "not playing football", is not a sport.

Oh, you think that's incorrect, do you? Then tell us which of the world's great (or lesser) religions you DO personally believe to be correct--Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, whatever. Your postings so far certainly have painted a different picture.

How mega dishonest of you, changing your own statements like that....


You claimed that I dissmissed all religions out of hand, without looking into them.

Here's your literal statement concerning that:
Sure, but I have assessed each of them and decided if any are credible and convincing, whereas you have merely dismissed any and all out of hand

You literally state that I never looked into any religion, and just dismiss them all anyway - which simply is not true.
What do you hope to accomplish with such dishonest tactics?

Furthermore, in the statement itself, YOU are also lying about your own efforts.
You most certainly did not "asses each of them".
It would take a lifetime to do that. There are literally hundreds, thousands of religions. Don't come on here, telling me that you "assessed each of them".

How stupid do you think I am, by assuming I would believe that?

 

[Albion]

You claimed that I dissmissed all religions out of hand, without looking into them.

And if we are to exchange charges, I consider it dishonest to put those words into my mouth. I never said that you aren't at least generally familiar with what they teach, but no belief that includes a supreme being or the supernatural is going to be under consideration as your personal belief system, is it??

 

[DogmaHunter]

And if we are to exchange charges, I consider it dishonest to put those words into my mouth.

And the dishonesty just continues....

Dude.... it's right there for all to see.
Here it is again:

Sure, but I have assessed each of them and decided if any are credible and convincing, whereas you have merely dismissed any and all out of hand.

Emhapsis mine. That's a word for word quote of your statement.

I never said that you aren't at least generally familiar with what they teach, but no belief that includes a supreme being is going to be under consideration as your personal belief system, is it??

Beliefs that aren't supported by verifiable evidence, aren't going to be under consideration for me.
Stop trying to mindread. Clearly, you are very bad at it.

 

[Albion]

Beliefs that aren't supported by verifiable evidence, aren't going to be under consideration for me.

And so the admission finally comes out.

 

[Loudmouth]

As I'm sure you know, I was referring to Atheism.

Is not collecting stamps a hobby?

Is not playing golf a sport?

Is bald a hair color?

How is not believing in a deity a religion? That makes zero sense.

 

[Loudmouth]

And so the admission finally comes out.

As has the admission that there is no evidence for your religious beliefs.

 

[ScottA]

This makes no sense. You are simply throwing words at the screen

No...the point is (as you have pointed out) that regardless of physics or God, Bob did not know, nor could he explain what was right in front of him.

And, yet, the undercurrent here, is that Bob's approach was somehow more legit. My point, is that they both failed with the tools they had - neither had evidence.