The Christian response to common abortion responses

Hazelelponi

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how would a pro-lifer Christian adequately respond to these questions including (but not limited to) use of Scripture and theology.

1. What about allowing abortions in the case of rape or incest?

Actually, when we are talking about Roe v Wade we are talking about abortion on demand, meaning without reason other than the mother didn't want to be pregnant and bring a child into this world for financial or other reasons the mother decides cause for murdering her child..

In many (if not most) states prior to Roe v Wade abortion was allowed in cases of where the life of the mother was at risk, or incest and rape. So this isn't what is being spoken of most of the time in abortion discussions.

Also, more than 99% of abortions performed in America have nothing to do with rape, incest or saving the mothers life so when pro-choice advocates bring up rape etc it's more of a strawman argument...

As a Christian however, I would oppose all abortions except in very limited cases. If an 11 year old got pregnant as a result of incestual rape for instance, and the pregnancy was potentially damaging to her given her age, I could see it being a medical consideration.

But most of the arguments surrounding abortion aren't surrounding these instances, it's the party girl in college that sleeps around, having unprotected sex, suddenly deciding she'd rather kill her child than go through with a pregnancy and give her baby up for adoption so he or she could have a good life.

2. What about a woman's right to her own body? It is her life and her choice.

Ask pro-choicers whether they believe people have a right to refuse to wear a mask and/or refuse social distancing mandates during the COVID outbreak and they'll tell you no, because it has the potential of endangering others.

This means they don't believe in absolute bodily autonomy.. the good of others is something they believe should be respected in society at large.

Well, abortion doesn't just potentially endanger a life, it's sole purpose is to end a life without regard to that person.

This is not the bedrock of our society, which respects others right to life.

3. What about allowing abortions in the case where the life or health of the mother is at risk?

Already answered.

4. What if the unborn child has a disease or illness that would guarantee him or her a life of suffering after birth?

We don't murder the mentally incompetent, or people with disease, we care and provide for them so long as they have life.

Can you look a retarded child in the eye and kill them because they are a "burden", or do you see them as a blessing from God to be respected?

Certainly, if someone doesn't think they are capable of raising a mentally handicapped child there are loving homes who would happily adopt such children.

5. Can a Christian be anti-abortion personally but allow for a pro-choice legislation in the United States? To what extent should

It's not about Christian morals perse. Ask any non-Christian who is homosexual that if scientists discovered a genetic marker for homosexuality if they think this should be just cause for aborting a child and you'll hear their answer will be no.

There are non-Christian groups who don't believe in abortion on demand. It comes down to what kind of society we want to live in, one that respects life, or one that doesn't. You don't have to be a Christian to realize a woman who would murder her own flesh and blood shouldn't be in the classroom teaching children, or responsible for the care of the elderly etc. etc.

It's a simple matter of what kind of society we want to live in, and our children and grandchildren to be reared in.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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Not always, the second time I got my girlfriend pregnant she was about 2 months along and they told her she could not carry the term and it could kill her.

Sorry but I'm skeptical here.

First off, no medical professional can determine if the pregnancy will kill the mother when she's just 12 weeks, unless there are complications with the fetus.

10 weeks later, she could've given birth via C-Section to a baby that could survive.

No excuse for a doctor to directly kill the unborn fetus before hand,

BTW, my son was born at 27 weeks, back in 1981. He'll be 40 years old in February.
I have experience with premature births in that I was in the neonatal intensive care unit at Boston's Women's Hospital. I saw preemies saved at 21 weeks. Sure, like my son, they had health problems but like my son, were grateful for the chance at life.
 
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Hazelelponi

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First off, no medical professional can determine if the pregnancy will kill the mother when she's just 12 weeks, unless there are complications with the fetus.

Actually I would disagree with this assessment.

My daughter was an unstable type 1 diabetic and serious complications with her diabetes caused her to be hospitalized - that was when we found out she was pregnant, and she was only a few weeks along around 4 or 6 weeks I can't remember exactly now.

The doctors determined that it was the pregnancy causing her normally unstable diabetes to become absolutely life threatening, and recommended abortion to save her life.

They saw no scenario in which she and baby would both survive, or one in which the baby wouldn't have serious health complications as a result...

She refused to get an abortion, and her life was at risk her entire pregnancy. She was hospitalized most of it. They did allow her to go home periodically, though it never lasted long before she was back in the hospital near death.

She and the baby (my grandbaby) survived, but it wasn't without a great many close calls. It was so stressful I wasn't sure I'd make it through her pregnancy, and that's just honest. Never knowing what day the phone's going to ring and the voice on the other end tell you the person you love most in life is dead, is just beyond words.

That said, my daughter survived, and so did my grandbaby so she proved everyone wrong... and I'm ever so grateful she chose life for her baby. The mini me in my life.. lol.

But I do seriously think it was a medical miracle of the kind it was God's Hand alone on her, and if it had been even 20 years earlier she may not have made it through.

When she decided to have another child (against doctors recommendations) she simply wasn't allowed to go home when it became too dangerous. And she spent the last 4 or so months of pregnancy hospitalized.

To her it was all worth it in the end, and I'm grateful she did as she showed me what living your beliefs really means, and gave me two grandchildren to remember her by... (she eventually died of cancer just a couple years after her last child was born)...

But I do believe that doctors can tell if a pregnancy is life threatening very early on. It just depends on the complications. The doctors, however wrong, recognized just how dangerous those pregnancies were going to be for my daughter - and while God showed us a miracle, the doctors weren't wrong in that she was very much risking her life.
 
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Yoko.52

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Sorry but I'm skeptical here.

First off, no medical professional can determine if the pregnancy will kill the mother when she's just 12 weeks, unless there are complications with the fetus.

10 weeks later, she could've given birth via C-Section to a baby that could survive.

22 weeks...can a baby survive yeah but its slim.

Now I said the first pregnancy she was just over 4 months. She found out at 12 weeks in on the second there were a few signs there were gonna be problems. That is why I say when the pregnancy has complications THAT CAN KILL THE WOMAN!!!! she should have the right to make that decision. Kudos to the women who do the take the chance but its got to be there choice.

Next here are common medical reason for abortion that you said do not exist.

Preeclampsia is a pregnancy complication characterized by high blood pressure and signs of damage to another organ system, most often the liver and kidneys.

Ectopic pregnancy
A fertilized egg implanted outside of the uterus is an ectopic pregnancy. The egg generally settles in one of the fallopian tubes.

Placental abruption
Placental abruption occurs when the placenta completely or partially separates from the uterus before a baby is born.

Low amniotic fluid
Low amniotic fluid can prevent a baby from properly developing muscles, limbs, lungs, and affect the digestive system.

Now just so were clear I am not supporting abortion, but for you to say there are know medical reasons is flagrantly untrue and a lie told by pro life, and again I do not support abortion. But I will call out a pro-life or a pro-choice for that matter who lies to get there point across. I will not call you a liar but your article is a lie, that is not an opinion that is a medical fact.
 
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Yoko.52

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None of those conditions require direct abortion. There is a difference in treating the condition and losing the baby under treatment. That is what Jim was saying. You are spreading false information.
Ectopic pregnancy there is no way for the baby to survive that is not false. Is abortion necessary in all medical cases NO. But sometimes it is.
 
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Michie

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Ectopic pregnancy there is no way for the baby to survive that is not false. Is abortion necessary in all medical cases NO. But sometimes it is.
Ectopic pregnancy is not considered abortion. I suffered from one.
 
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Michie

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Ectopic pregnancy there is no way for the baby to survive that is not false. Is abortion necessary in all medical cases NO. But sometimes it is.
By the way, three recorded cases of babies surviving this rare type of pregnancy in the UK in the last 20 years. The chances of both mother and baby surviving were three million to one. But some have survived.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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22 weeks...can a baby survive yeah but its slim.

Now I said the first pregnancy she was just over 4 months. She found out at 12 weeks in on the second there were a few signs there were gonna be problems. That is why I say when the pregnancy has complications THAT CAN KILL THE WOMAN!!!! she should have the right to make that decision. Kudos to the women who do the take the chance but its got to be there choice.

Next here are common medical reason for abortion that you said do not exist.

Preeclampsia is a pregnancy complication characterized by high blood pressure and signs of damage to another organ system, most often the liver and kidneys.

Ectopic pregnancy
A fertilized egg implanted outside of the uterus is an ectopic pregnancy. The egg generally settles in one of the fallopian tubes.

Placental abruption
Placental abruption occurs when the placenta completely or partially separates from the uterus before a baby is born.

Low amniotic fluid
Low amniotic fluid can prevent a baby from properly developing muscles, limbs, lungs, and affect the digestive system.

Now just so were clear I am not supporting abortion, but for you to say there are know medical reasons is flagrantly untrue and a lie told by pro life, and again I do not support abortion. But I will call out a pro-life or a pro-choice for that matter who lies to get there point across. I will not call you a liar but your article is a lie, that is not an opinion that is a medical fact.

All the conditions you mention here are treatable with modern medicine and if not, the pregnancy can be terminated without performing a "direct abortion." These conditions would result in an "indirect abortion," which is the pregnancy is terminated without directly killing the fetus. This is licit.

Also, in today's modern medicine, doctors will not attempt to save the life of a premature born baby younger than 21 weeks. So 22 weeks is considered viable.

All the doctors I've ever met, will not directly kill a fetus, but will terminate a pregnancy which will threaten the mother's life. I have no problem with this.
 
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JimR-OCDS

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Ectopic pregnancy there is no way for the baby to survive that is not false. Is abortion necessary in all medical cases NO. But sometimes it is.

That's not an abortion
 
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JimR-OCDS

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Actually I would disagree with this assessment.

My daughter was an unstable type 1 diabetic and serious complications with her diabetes caused her to be hospitalized - that was when we found out she was pregnant, and she was only a few weeks along around 4 or 6 weeks I can't remember exactly now.

The doctors determined that it was the pregnancy causing her normally unstable diabetes to become absolutely life threatening, and recommended abortion to save her life.

They saw no scenario in which she and baby would both survive, or one in which the baby wouldn't have serious health complications as a result...

She refused to get an abortion, and her life was at risk her entire pregnancy. She was hospitalized most of it. They did allow her to go home periodically, though it never lasted long before she was back in the hospital near death.

She and the baby (my grandbaby) survived, but it wasn't without a great many close calls. It was so stressful I wasn't sure I'd make it through her pregnancy, and that's just honest. Never knowing what day the phone's going to ring and the voice on the other end tell you the person you love most in life is dead, is just beyond words.

That said, my daughter survived, and so did my grandbaby so she proved everyone wrong... and I'm ever so grateful she chose life for her baby. The mini me in my life.. lol.

But I do seriously think it was a medical miracle of the kind it was God's Hand alone on her, and if it had been even 20 years earlier she may not have made it through.

When she decided to have another child (against doctors recommendations) she simply wasn't allowed to go home when it became too dangerous. And she spent the last 4 or so months of pregnancy hospitalized.

To her it was all worth it in the end, and I'm grateful she did as she showed me what living your beliefs really means, and gave me two grandchildren to remember her by... (she eventually died of cancer just a couple years after her last child was born)...

But I do believe that doctors can tell if a pregnancy is life threatening very early on. It just depends on the complications. The doctors, however wrong, recognized just how dangerous those pregnancies were going to be for my daughter - and while God showed us a miracle, the doctors weren't wrong in that she was very much risking her life.

A doctor can determine if there is going to be a risk, as in the case of your daughter.

But at 12 weeks, he can not determine that the pregnancy WILL kill the mother.

FYI, my daughter had a pregnancy terminated at 12 weeks due to the fetus deformity which he could not survive. The pregnancy was terminated through induction and the doctor did not have to directly kill the baby. My wife was in the delivery room and held the baby in her hands. I held him afterwards. We even had a burial service for him as he was Baptized immediately after birth even though he was dead and was given a name. He's buried at the cemetery in our family plot.
 
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Michie

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Abortion and Double Effect

Legislation to restrict abortion frequently gets shot down by the courts for failing to include an exemption protecting “the life or health of the mother.” The wordhealth lacks a hard definition, and people freely apply it not only to matters of grave physical health but also to mental health, economic health, and even social health. The issue of the life of the mother, though, is explicit and gives lie to the misuse of this exemption in abortion law.

Cases in which a pregnancy may threaten the life of the mother are extremely rare. Former U.S. surgeon general C. Everett Koop has famously stated:

In my thirty-six years of pediatric surgery I have never known of one instance where the child had to be aborted to save the mother’s life. . . . If toward the end of the pregnancy complications arise that threaten the mother’s health, [her obstetrician] will either induce labor or perform a Caesarian section. His intention is to save the life of both the mother and the baby. . . . The baby’s life is never willfully destroyed because the mother’s life is in danger. (Moody Monthly, May 1980)

Most doctors have never encountered a “life of the mother” case. But what if the situation does arise? Is there a moral solution? Let’s begin with a hypothetical: You are a doctor. Your patient is a woman who is not pregnant. She has aggressive uterine cancer, and the only way to treat the cancer is to surgically remove her diseased uterus.

The action of removing her uterus has two effects; one is desired and the other is not. The desired effect is to save her life. The undesired effect is to render her permanently sterile. This, in and of itself, goes against the proper ordering of the woman’s reproductive functions. Are you, the doctor, morally culpable for this wrong? The answer is no. The principle of double effect means that sometimes one must perform an action that is in itself morally good but may also have an unintended ill effect for which the person is not morally culpable.

Intention, Causality, and Gravity

Three questions determine whether an action with a double effect is moral or immoral.

1. The first is the question of intention. One can never intend the evil effect (CCC 1752). One’s intention must be only for the good effect. The evil effect must be a regrettable byproduct.

2. The second is the question of causality. St. Thomas Aquinas articulated the principle that “the end does not justify the means” (CCC 1759). One may never do evil hoping that good may come of it. A bad effect may be the consequence of a morally good act, or it may occur simultaneously along with it, but the anticipated good must never be a result of evil actions. Such acts are never morally licit (CCC 1756).

3. The third question is of comparable gravity. Is the good being done proportional to the evil consequences of the action? In order to justify taking the action, it must be. When an action has both a good and an evil outcome, the gravity of the two must be weighed against each other. Although “circumstances of themselves cannot change the moral quality of acts themselves; they can make neither good nor right an action that is in itself evil.” Still, they can and do “contribute to increasing or diminishing the moral goodness or evil of human acts” (CCC 1754).

With these principles in mind, let’s revisit our hypothetical situation. (1) Your intention, as the doctor, is to save the life of your patient. Your primary goal is to protect her health. (2) You are not doing evil in order to achieve a good; on the contrary, you are doing a good—removing a diseased organ that is threatening her life. The evil of rendering her sterile occurs simultaneously with that good but does not cause it. (3) Lastly, the good of saving her life greatly outweighs the evil of her being sterilized. Thus, it is a morally good action.

A Tragic—but Moral—Choice

But what if the hypothetical patient is pregnant? Her pregnancy is only a few weeks along, but her uterine cancer is extremely progressed. She needs to be treated as soon as possible if she is to have any chance of survival.

As the doctor, you now have two patients—the mother and her unborn child. Your duty and desire is to preserve the life and health of each of them. What do you do? If you do not remove the mother’s cancer, she will die very soon. At this stage in the baby’s development, it is entirely dependent upon the mother for life. If the mother is not treated and dies, the baby will die, too. You will lose both patients. But the only way to save her life is to remove her uterus, home to a developing person who will die as a result of the operation.

This is a tragic situation to which a moral solution must be found. If the doctor believes that the mother can survive long enough to carry the baby until it is viable—that is, until it can live on its own outside the womb with medical assistance—then the mother may choose to risk her own life to save the life of her child. Even though it may mean decreasing her chances of survival, she may choose to postpone treatment of her cancer.

If the progression of the cancer will not allow for that option, and the mother needs surgery immediately if she is going to live, you, as her doctor, have only two choices: You can allow both patients to die or you can save one and lose the other. The moral choice is to save the mother.

The principle of double effect applies: (1) Your intention is to perform a good—to save the mother’s life by removing her cancerous uterus. The evil effect of causing the death of the baby is not desired. It is a very sad and unfortunate result of the good act. (2) The evil effect does not cause the good result. You are removing a diseased organ that is killing the mother, not performing an abortion. The baby will die during or shortly after the operation, but the purpose of the operation is not to kill the child. (3) Two very grave matters must be weighed against each other. Saving one person is better than allowing both to die through inaction, even though it means the death of one.

The Mother’s (Insert Here) Health
The criteria used to determine that this rare choice is morally acceptable are the same criteria that tell us that abortions for “the health of the mother” are immoral. If an abortion is performed to preserve a less-than-life-threatening.aspect of the mother’s health, it is simply wrong, by all three criteria of the moral principle of double effect.

Although the intention is ostensibly to preserve the health of the mother, all too often the mother’s mental or emotional health—even financial or social health—is invoked to justify the act. In some cases, the doctor may foresee problems arising in a pregnancy that would put the mother at risk.

But regardless of the reason cited, the action taken is the abortion of the child, and the direct intention of that act is death. When an abortion is performed to “preserve the health of the mother,” the abortion is the cause of any perceived benefit to the mother. In other words, an evil is being done to pursue a supposed good, and this is never morally licit. Finally, we must weigh the moral gravity: A grave evil is being done—the direct and intentional killing of an innocent person—to achieve a lesser good. Whether the intended benefit to the mother’s health is small or great, actual or contrived, “good health” can never equal life itself. Abortions performed “for the health of the mother” fail the test on all three counts.

Actual cases where a decision must be made between the mother’s life and the baby’s are rare, but they do occur, and there is always a moral response. Morally mature, ethical doctors are equipped to handle these difficult situations in the rare instances that they arise.

Legislation to regulate these rare occurrences has opened the door to abortion on demand. Statistics bear this out. The National Right to Life Committee reports that 93 percent of abortions are performed for “social reasons,” while the mother’s health is cited in only 3 percent of the cases. (In another 3 percent the baby’s health is cited, and 1 percent cites rape or incest.) “Saving the life of the mother” never came up in the report (www.nrlc.org/abortion/facts/reasonsabortions.html).

The principle is simple: The direct killing of an innocent life is a grave evil and is never allowed, but when the mother’s life is in danger, medical ethics have always recognized the principle of double effect. And so has the Catholic Church, which has long protected the life of the mother. In 1907, long before abortion on demand was legal through most of the Western world, the Catholic Encyclopedia included this statement in its article on abortion:

If medical treatment or surgical operation, necessary to save a mother’s life, is applied to her organism (though the child’s death would, or at least might, follow as a regretted but unavoidable consequence), it should not be maintained that the fetal life is thereby directly attacked.

Abortion and Double Effect
 
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Job 33:6

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Hello Jok, I'm having trouble understanding what you are saying, so please elaborate a bit more for me (if you don't mind doing so, that is). For instance, what is 100% for you .. that you've also never heard used, not even once? Also, what argument is used by pro-choice advocates 100% of the time?

Thanks again :)

--David

When people mention that rape only accounts for about 1% of abortions or less (or the woman's health accounts for another 3%), my response is "ok, and?".

Does this response suggest that for this 4%, abortion is acceptable? That's what it sounds like to me.

Or perhaps they're saying that because it's only 4%, that the situation these women are in is irrelevant to legislation?

I just don't understand the response at all.
 
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Job 33:6

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Thanks brother, and I agree, it's basically been the same for me too.

The only other (semi-regular) argument that I hear from the Pro-Choice side is that an unborn child is not a human being with a life of its own yet, that it's simply a blob of cells that is still part of its mother's body (but science tells us the very opposite, of course).

God bless you!

--David

And for this, I guess I missed the scientific research article that describes the timing of ensoulment.

Or perhaps I missed the research paper that clarifies on the moment in which life actually begins in the process of birth. But of course, in science, life has existed for billions of years before conception. Something like sperm for example, is alive before conception, suggesting that life of the child predates even insemination (from a purely naturalistic and scientific stance).
 
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Job 33:6

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The Catholic Church teaches that a "direct abortion," is illicit. This means the doctor would deliberately kill the fetus before it was removed.

However, an "indirect abortion," is licit. This would happen when the doctor induces labor and the fetus dies in the delivery. In other words, the doctor didn't have to kill the fetus first.


So when we're talking about the scenario you're presenting, there is a moral and licit way for the doctor to save the life of the mother without directly killing the fetus.

What this response means is that under certain circumstances, some abortions (indirect) are acceptable according to the catholic church.
 
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All the doctors I've ever met, will not directly kill a fetus, but will terminate a pregnancy which will threaten the mother's life. I have no problem with this.

It's ok to use the word 'abortion". If a baby were threatening the mothers life, and if left alone would live 11 months, but a doctor recognizes the risk, induces the pregnancy and the baby dies earlier at 10 months due to termination of the pregnancy, it's ok to call this an abortion. That's just what it is.
 
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SPF

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life has existed for billions of years before conception. Something like sperm for example, is alive before conception, suggesting that life of the child predates even insemination (from a purely naturalistic and scientific stance).
Statements like these of course rely upon ignoring basic human biology.

A sperm will never be anything more than a sperm. An egg will never be anything more than an egg . Sperm and Egg are not human organism. Never were human organisms, and never will become, on their own, human organisms.

“Human life begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm (spermatozoo developmentn) unites with a female gamete or oocyte (ovum) to form a single cell called a zygote. This highly specialized, totipotent cell marked the beginning of each of us as a unique individual.” “A zygote is the beginning of a new human being (i.e., an embryo).” Keith L. Moore, The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 7th edition. Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 2003. pp. 16, 2.

“In that fraction of a second when the chromosomes form pairs, the sex of the new child will be determined, hereditary characteristics received from each parent will be set, and a new life will have begun.” Kaluger, G., and Kaluger, M., Human Development: The Span of Life, page 28-29, The C.V. Mosby Co., St. Louis, 1974

“It is the penetration of the ovum by a sperm and the resulting mingling of nuclear material each brings to the union that constitutes the initiation of the life of a new individual.” Clark Edward and Corliss Patten’s Human Embryology, McGraw – Hill Inc., 30

The zygote and early embryo are living human organisms.” Keith L. Moore & T.V.N. Persaud Before We Are Born – Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects (W.B. Saunders Company, 1998. Fifth edition.) Page 500
 
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