The Christian: one nature or two?

[bennyk]

Greetings everyone. I posted this also in the reformed community forum, but I thought I would post it here too. If that is against the rules, I apologize, and please feel free to notify a moderator to close this thread (I wasn't sure of the rule). Anyways, I have wondered about this question for a while and I would like to hear your views...

I have often heard it said to describe the Christian's struggling with sin, "we struggle between the new nature and the sinful nature...the new creation and the old man..etc"

but is this really true?

The Old Testament reference to the new birth, in Ezekiel 36 (perhaps one of the best descriptions of the new birth) describes it as such:

24"For I will (AI)take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land.
25"Then I will (AJ)sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your (AK)filthiness and from all your (AL)idols.
26"Moreover, I will give you a (AM)new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the (AN)heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27"I will (AO)put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
28"You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be (AP)My people, and I will be your God.

Notice in verse 26 the LORD says, "..I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh."

It seems to be saying that whatever old nature, whatever stone heart, whatever corrupted core within man will be removed and replaced with a nature created in righteousness and holiness of the truth after the likeness of God (Eph. 4:24).

As far as I see it, when one is converted the old nature is done away with and is replaced with a new nature created in righteousness and holiness. A nature created by God, a regenerate nature, one to which God has given life.

For if it were otherwise, I would ask the question: how can one have two natures, that are contradicting to each other? For is not the nature the very essence of something, the very core of who/what one is? The Hebrew understanding of what the "heart" was as referenced in Ezekiel wasn't over-spiritualized but (in addition to the nature/essence) it could extend to even include the very intellect, will, personality, and the base from which emotions flow.

Some might raise the question, however, "why do Christians still sin?" if we only have one new nature. The answer to that question is that we are still tempted through the flesh. Just as the church is still living in a fallen world abounding with sin, the Christian has been given a new nature, however there is still a part of us that is yet unredeemed, and that is the flesh.

I would very much appreciate responses and help to this question and possible scripture as well to help support either side.

Thanks so much brothers and sisters.

God bless,
--Ben

 

[MamaZ]

We are a new creation clothed in our old flesh.

 

[simonthezealot]

NEW not TWO

 

[Emmy]

Dear bennyk. I do not quite know what you ask, you answered it yourself. A Christian has only one nature, to love God, and love each other. That is why we are on Earth, to learn to love selflessly and learn to recognise temptation, and resist it, and overcome it. The O.T. is a History of the Israelites and their Prophets, God was establing His Kingdom. Jesus came to save us, after we had moved too far away from our Heavenly Father. We had to change completely, Repent/give up the old man, for a new man. 1) Love God with all our hearts, all our souls, and all our minds. God made us in His image, we are His Own, we must try to become as near as possible, to be like our Heavenly Father, filled with His wonderful, all-encompassing Love. 2) To love our neighbour, i.e. all others, as we love ourselves. We have years to become better and better, we have Jesus to help and guide us, and we have a forgiving God, who knows our hearts, who knows how sincerely we are trying to become, as He wants us to be. I say this humbly and with love, Ben. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ. P.S. If I misunderstood you, forgive me. Emmy.

 

[MrPolo]

I can't resist: the fact that we still sin is why Christians going to heaven will go through purgation first.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Definately 2 natures that are always at war with each other.

I like the story of the grandfather explaining to the grandson how a person has 2 wolves inside...one good one bad...that were fighting to the death. The enthralled grandson after listening to the story, inqired as to which one finally won the battle that was being fought. The grandfather answered that it was the one that that person had fed.

 

[AngelusSax]

We are simultaneously saint and sinner at the same time. Not 50-50, but 100% and 100%. In our Baptism Christ comes in and interrupts us, eternally. The old Adam dies, but is still there. The New Creation is alive and also there. As Paul even said, we die daily.

 

[simonthezealot]

We are NOT added on to with the new nature. We are transformed see Galatians 2:20
I am crucified[SIZE=+0] with Christ[/SIZE][SIZE=+0]: nevertheless[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] I live[/SIZE][SIZE=+0]; yet[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] not[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] I[/SIZE][SIZE=+0], but[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] Christ[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] liveth[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] in[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] me[/SIZE][SIZE=+0]: and[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] the life which[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] I[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] now[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] live[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] in[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] the flesh[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] I live[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] by[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] the faith[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] of the Son[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] of God[/SIZE][SIZE=+0], who[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] loved[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] me[/SIZE][SIZE=+0], and[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] gave[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] himself[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] for[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] me[/SIZE][SIZE=+0].[/SIZE].

Crucifiction is death! old nature or ego died yet Christ indeed lives within a born again Christian.

 

[AngelusSax]

If we are changed the way you say, then no Christian would EVER sin.

Take a look at Romans. Paul deals with this when he talks about doing things he doesn't want to do and not doing what he wants to do and the struggle of his new and old together.

Or we could just throw that out the window altogether...

 

[visionary]

Die daily and be transformed by the renewing of the mind.

 

[simonthezealot]

Die daily and transformed by the renewing of the mind.

Exactly....
We are a new creation inprisoned in the flesh.

Romans 7
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

It is an exchanging old for new...

If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

I have often heard it said to describe the Christian's struggling with sin, "we struggle between the new nature and the sinful nature...the new creation and the old man..etc"

but is this really true?

Yes and no. For believers, the new nature/new creation is a radical transformation of identity and orientation. Scripture speaks of unbelievers as having Adam's nature, and believers as being crucified with Christ, resurrected with Christ. So our identity is with Christ and no longer with Adam (Romans 6). In theology this is called positional sanctification. At the same time indwelling sin remains within believers. This indwelling sin is the source of the conflict with our new identity and orientation with Christ (Romans 7). The outworking of this conflict - steps forward and back - is referred to as progressive sanctification. Over the long term there is a progression toward Christlikeness (Phi 1:6 He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus).

As far as I see it, when one is converted the old nature is done away with and is replaced with a new nature created in righteousness and holiness. A nature created by God, a regenerate nature, one to which God has given life.

For if it were otherwise, I would ask the question: how can one have two natures, that are contradicting to each other? For is not the nature the very essence of something, the very core of who/what one is? The Hebrew understanding of what the "heart" was as referenced in Ezekiel wasn't over-spiritualized but (in addition to the nature/essence) it could extend to even include the very intellect, will, personality, and the base from which emotions flow.

Yes, this is true, the basic orientation is radically changed. Its often described as a life/death or light/dark contrast in Scripture. The believer is now oriented toward Christ, whereas as an unbeliever was oriented toward sin and rebellion. Galatians 5:16-26 contrasts the flesh and the Spirit. Also see Romans 8:5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

Some might raise the question, however, "why do Christians still sin?" if we only have one new nature. The answer to that question is that we are still tempted through the flesh. Just as the church is still living in a fallen world abounding with sin, the Christian has been given a new nature, however there is still a part of us that is yet unredeemed, and that is the flesh.

In Rom 6 and elsewhere the "flesh" in Scripture refers to indwelling sin and not to the physical flesh. Indwelling sin should not be underestimated - according to John Owen and others.


LDG

 

[ticker]

The Christian: one nature or two?

One.

You can't even have "two natures" of something....it's a contradiction in terms. "Nature" by definition is somethings' essence...its core make-up.

Nothing could be"two of" anything......LEAST of all Christ (...whose divine nature we happen to share ).

Peace

 

[ticker]

Definately 2 natures that are always at war with each other.

I like the story of the grandfather explaining to the grandson how a person has 2 wolves inside...one good one bad...that were fighting to the death. The enthralled grandson after listening to the story, inqired as to which one finally won the battle that was being fought. The grandfather answered that it was the one that that person had fed.

Probably a reason that story wasn't in the Holy Bible.

 

[ticker]

We are simultaneously saint and sinner at the same time. Not 50-50, but 100% and 100%. In our Baptism Christ comes in and interrupts us, eternally. The old Adam dies, but is still there. The New Creation is alive and also there. As Paul even said, we die daily.

Nope. What we ARE is a Saint....what we sometimes DO is sin. Big difference.

Peace

 

[ticker]

If we are changed the way you say, then no Christian would EVER sin.

Take a look at Romans. Paul deals with this when he talks about doing things he doesn't want to do and not doing what he wants to do and the struggle of his new and old together.

Or we could just throw that out the window altogether...

Maybe taking a closer look instead of throwing it out, bro...

Paul actually says sin is in the members of his flesh...going on to point out that it's IN him, but NOT him.

Paul isn't talking about a struggle between new and old...he's talking about a struggle between who he IS (good) and what he sometimes DOES (bad). Notice how many times he's saying it's GOOD that he really wants to do (...that's because of who he IS), but then adds it's no longer HIM who does the bad that he doesn't wanna do.......it's something that's IN him (indwelling sin), but NOT him.

Kinda gives a good perspective of things, don't it? We aren't all that bad LOL

Peace

 

[ticker]

Die daily and transformed by the renewing of the mind.

Sure...but that has nothing to do with "nature".

 

[bennyk]

I agree with you Ticker, and thank you everyone for all your help and responses.

I think the key is Paul's language in the following...

14For we know that the Law is (Z)spiritual, but I am (AA)of flesh, (AB)sold (AC)into bondage to sin. 15For what I am doing, (AD)I do not understand; for I am not practicing (AE)what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with (AF)the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17So now, (AG)no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my (AH)flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19For (AI)the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, (AJ)I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21I find then (AK)the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in (AL)the inner man,
23but I see (AM)a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the (AN)law of my mind and making me a prisoner of (AO)the law of sin which is in my members.
24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from (AP)the body of this (AQ)death?
25(AR)Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh (AS)the law of sin.


"For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my (AH)flesh"
"but I see (AM)a different law in the members of my body"
"the law of sin which is in my members."
"Who will set me free from (AP)the body of this (AQ)death? "
"with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh (AS)the law of sin. "

In Paul's language there always seems to be the contrast of the nature with the flesh. The nature, being regenerate, desires to obey the law of God, whereas the flesh seems to be in defiance of that law. There is a struggle, but it is not between two natures. There is the nature, regenerated by the Spirit of God, given life by the Father, and then there is the flesh, the members of the body, etc. Yet there is only one nature, and that I have found is perhaps the simplest definition of a Christian..."a Christian is one whose heart has been regenerated by God"

Anyways, thanks again to everyone for all their responses. They have helped very much. I think this is a very important subject and it certainly deserves such clarification. God bless, --Ben

 

[bennyk]

In Rom 6 and elsewhere the "flesh" in Scripture refers to indwelling sin and not to the physical flesh. Indwelling sin should not be underestimated - according to John Owen and others.


LDG

Could you elaborate more on this please? I am interested in the difference between "flesh" and "indwelling sin" in the life of a believer and in the life of an unbeliever. What distinguishes between them? I do not know much about this.

Thanks so much brother.

God bless,
--Ben

 

[visionary]

Sure...but that has nothing to do with "nature".

Are you sure?