The Christian dilemma

[Bonhoffer]

Think about it for a couple of minutes!

Which of those options do you feel most comfortable saying in church?

 

[Bushido216]

Neither?

 

[Bonhoffer]

And I'll explain everything later on!!

 

[Aduro Amnis]

"The Christian God is imperfect"... *NOTE* Think Jesus

 

[mhess13]

It's the least offensive to say that God isn't real.

 

[Dark_Lite]

It's the least offensive to say that God isn't real.

It is a huge offense for a "christian" to call God an imperfect liar. (which TE's do by scoffing at His word)
Atheist's are at least consistent enough to reject the whole Bible. I have way more respect for atheists

You tread on thin water my friend. Really, you do.

 

[nyj]

"The Christian God is imperfect"... *NOTE* Think Jesus

What was imperfect about Jesus Christ?

They are all blasphemies, and as such there is no possible answer to the above question.

 

[Bonhoffer]

The reason I have posted this question is because I have recently been confronted with a dilemma where I have to choose between the three.

This dilemma has been brought about by a consideration of how the world was made.

There are in essense only three choices for a human for where and how life originated.

1) Creationism
2) Atheistic evolution
3) Theistic evolution

Would you all agree thus far ?

Well in a sense if you beleive 1) you are kind of calling God a liar
If you beleive 2) you are not a Christian and thus a hellbound sinner. And if you beleive 3) then you are saying God isnt perfect!

I am not saying that people voting 1) delibrately attack God as a liar; neither do theistic evolutionists delibrately attack God as imperfect.

Its just the physical evidence for evolution is SO strong that might it mean that God is deceiving us about the age of the earth and how everything was made?

But if we beleive that God guided evolution then we are saying that God made the world through violent means EVEN before the Fall of Man. (i.e animal death at least was not a result of human sin) A God who creates things this way cannot be perfect!!

Confusing isnt it?

 

[Chi_Cygni]

1) No we are not calling God a liar. We are disagreeing with an interpretation of a book written by men.

2) You are not in judgement of atheists.

3) No one says it is.

It isn't confusing if you let go a literal interpretation of 2500 year old myth from nomadic goat herders in the Middle East.

 

[PaladinValer]

Bibliolatry is against forum rules, isn't it?

 

[Orthodox Andrew]

The reason I have posted this question is because I have recently been confronted with a dilemma where I have to choose between the three.

This dilemma has been brought about by a consideration of how the world was made.

There are in essense only three choices for a human for where and how life originated.

1) Creationism
2) Atheistic evolution
3) Theistic evolution

Would you all agree thus far ?

Well in a sense if you beleive 1) you are kind of calling God a liar
If you beleive 2) you are not a Christian and thus a hellbound sinner. And if you beleive 3) then you are saying God isnt perfect!

I am not saying that people voting 1) delibrately attack God as a liar; neither do theistic evolutionists delibrately attack God as imperfect.

Its just the physical evidence for evolution is SO strong that might it mean that God is deceiving us about the age of the earth and how everything was made?

But if we beleive that God guided evolution then we are saying that God made the world through violent means EVEN before the Fall of Man. (i.e animal death at least was not a result of human sin) A God who creates things this way cannot be perfect!!

Confusing isnt it?

You know all Atheists go to hell? I know for a fact you don't know all their circumstances or their hearts. We should at least know that it is up to God to judge such a thing.

To the part in bold I ask one very simple question. Why?

 

[Bonhoffer]

You know all Atheists go to hell? I know for a fact you don't know all their circumstances or their hearts. We should at least know that it is up to God to judge such a thing.

I'm not judging atheists, thats up to God! But the Bible states time and time again that those who die atheists are going to hell. So I beleive atheists are going to hell, not because I condemn them, but because Gods Word does.

To the part in bold I ask one very simple question. Why?

Because if evolution over millions of years is true then it would mean that God created the world with a violent, messy and cruel proccess. It would mean that animal suffering, earthquakes, death and disease would have been happening as part of Gods creative proccess and all this would have been happening a LONG time before humans were about. If death and suffering was around BEFORE the fall of man (or if in deed there was no fall) then all the evil in the world is not the result of Mans sin or Mans rebellion against God.
I beleive disease to be either Gods Wrath (in response to Sin) or Satan being allowed to attack the world with disease. But in both these cases evolution doesnt work! In the case of the first; How could God be judging and punishing the world before there is someone to punish? and in the case of the latter then it would be God who invited Satan into the world and not humanity through sin!!

 

[PaladinValer]

Dude, ever heard of "microbes?"

 

[Orthodox Andrew]

I'm not judging atheists, thats up to God! But the Bible states time and time again that those who die atheists are going to hell. So I beleive atheists are going to hell, not because I condemn them, but because Gods Word does. Because if evolution over millions of years is true then it would mean that God created the world with a violent, messy and cruel proccess. It would mean that animal suffering, earthquakes, death and disease would have been happening as part of Gods creative proccess and all this would have been happening a LONG time before humans were about. If death and suffering was around BEFORE the fall of man (or if in deed there was no fall) then all the evil in the world is not the result of Mans sin or Mans rebellion against God.
I beleive disease to be either Gods Wrath (in response to Sin) or Satan being allowed to attack the world with disease. But in both these cases evolution doesnt work! In the case of the first; How could God be judging and punishing the world before there is someone to punish? and in the case of the latter then it would be God who invited Satan into the world and not humanity through sin!!

I know what you mean. But how does any of that show a God that is not perfect?

 

[Bulldog]

You know all Atheists go to hell?

Do you believe that one can have salvation without faith in Christ?

 

[Bonhoffer]

because Hes breeding Dino's to kill each other and tigers which eat and cause pain to deer. I know that animals do attack and eat each other. But creationists beleive that is only because humans invited Satan into the world by sinning against God and then that Satan corrupted the way animals function so that peaceloving wolves would become vicious meat eaters!

 

[Orthodox Andrew]

Do you believe that one can have salvation without faith in Christ?

I believe that only God knows a man's heart. Why does a man reject Christ? Does he know who Christ is? Or is he rejecting a misconception of Chirst? And at the same time, does a man who accepts Christ always know who he's accepting? Or is salvation based on believing in the name Christ? Irregardless of what it means in a man's heart?

What I'm saying is that circumstances can dictate peoples choices, and whether or not an Atheist will be forgiven for his mistake by the God of mercy is not known to me.

 

[Bonhoffer]

Do you believe that one can have salvation without faith in Christ?

No. I wish I was wrong, but the Bible makes it clear


John 14:5-126 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Also a verse in Hebrews states something along the lines of "Salvation is found in no one else, under no other name than that of Jesus"

 

[Orthodox Andrew]

because Hes breeding Dino's to kill each other and tigers which eat and cause pain to deer. I know that animals do attack and eat each other. But creationists beleive that is only because humans invited Satan into the world by sinning against God and then that Satan corrupted the way animals function so that peaceloving wolves would become vicious meat eaters!

However, what is perfect? What is our model of perfect? I believe that our model of perfect is God, and he is the only way we can judge what perfect is. So with that said, if God made man evolve from the ancestors of apes, than that would not lessen his perfection. Since perfection can only be measured by God.

 

[L'Anatra]

However, what is perfect? What is our model of perfect? I believe that our model of perfect is God, and he is the only way we can judge what perfect is. So with that said, if God made man evolve from the ancestors of apes, than that would not lessen his perfection. Since perfection can only be measured by God.

Exactly... how can an imperfect being judge what's perfect, except by looking at God? He created the universe. How in the world does death have anything to do with imperfection? Who are you to decide, Bonhoffer?

Death is a part of life. Without death there is no life.