The choice of Cain

[twin1954]

Twin,
You said, after your monologue:
Not trying to argue with you but trying to make you see the whole picture.

You are funny.

I am glad that I could cause you mirth but I don't see how trying to help you get a fuller grasp is funny.

I am not trying to argue or debate with you. I am seeking to cause you to consider and think on the matter more deeply and seek light on it.

 

[Renee Arisen]

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[twin1954]

Twin:

"Funny," but not ha, ha funny.

It is not edifying to nitpick, split hairs, to make minors into majors, or to create controversy where there is none.

It is not edifying to be badgered, bludgeoned, intimated, shamed, etc. to accept another's egoistical viewpoint. We get clarity on this issue from Scripture:

"Who is wise and understanding among you? By his good conduct let him show his works in the meekness of wisdom. But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast and be false to the truth. This is not the wisdom that comes down from above, but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every vile practice. But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere. And a harvest of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace." James 3:13-18, ESV.

The Message Bible sums it up with regard to controversy:

"I want you to put your foot down. Take a firm stand on these matters so that those who have put their trust in God will concentrate on the essentials that are good for everyone. Stay away from mindless, pointless quarreling over genealogies and fine print in the law code. That gets you nowhere. Warn a quarrelsome person once or twice, but then be done with him. It’s obvious that such a person is out of line, rebellious against God. By persisting in divisiveness he cuts himself off." Titus 3:8-11.

What is needful is harmony and love. Christ calls us to peace.

Harmony at the expense of truth is compromise and hypocrisy. I am wondering how it is that you from one post have determined that I was being contentious or nitpicking. Perhaps you should wonder why it is that you are above instruction.

 

[Renee Arisen]

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[twin1954]

Twin,

1) It is not just merely one post. Throughout this entire thread, you have attempted to pick a fight. One might ask "Why?"

2) "The heart of the wise makes his speech judicious and adds persuasiveness to his lips." (Proverbs 16:23).

3) Perhaps it is you who is above instruction. Perhaps you are the one in error. And, perhaps a little humility is in order. "Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall." (Proverbs 16:18).

4) We are to help and encourage one another, not use and put down others in order to "feel good about ourselves." That is not about "truth" but about personal insecurity and competition.

5) Dissension is dissension; and, we are warned about it. "But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned." (Titus 3:9-11).

I consider that you stand self-condemned. I am done here. Period.

Perhaps you should actually go back and read the thread and my posts. I have in no way sought to pick a fight. But you seem to want one and accuse me of being less than Christian. I am confident that I can stand before God in this matter without fear.

I sought to help you, as a Calvinist, understand how and why doctrine and theology fit together because you seemed confused. I apologize if I overstepped my bounds. I am called of God as a preacher/teacher and am glad that not many here have your un-teachable attitude. I have earned the respect of many here so your tirade doesn't hit home or bother me.

I remain a simple servant of Christ, twin.

 

[hedrick]

From what I can see, Gen 4:4-5 doesn't say why God rejected Cain's offering. It doesn't say there was a reason, but it doesn't say it was an arbitrary decision either. Verse 6 seems to imply that there's a reason.

In the NT, Cain is mentioned three times. Heb 11:4 say that Abel's offering was accepted because he had faith and Cain didn't. 1 John 3:12 says Cain was from the evil one and murdered his brother. Jude 11 doesn't give a specific offense, but also implies that Cain was in some way evil.

Mat 23:35 || Luke 11:51 mention Abel as righteous.

This all suggests to me that God had an actual reason for how he treated Cain and Abel, based on their behavior and character.

 

[Inkfingers]

And, we all been given free will.

No such thing Renee, sorry.

Freewill is an illusion. We never have it. The Bible never says that we have it (it says choice, but the birds in your garden choose which bug to eat without us saying they have freewill). And you can offer no evidence that it exists.

Each creature acts in accord with its nature. The choices that each make are dictated by that nature.

 

[Renee Arisen]

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[BryanW92]

RC Sproul explains free will by using the Cheshire Cat: Alice comes up to a fork in the road and asks the Cheshire Cat, "which way should I go?"

He asks, "Where are you going?" To which, she replies, "I don't know."

He says, "Then it really doesn't matter which road you take."

God gives the Elect a destination, so we know which fork is right and which is wrong. He plants a desire in your heart to make it to the destination, so why would Free Will cause you take the wrong fork?

But, assume that you are at the fork in the road. If you have totally Free Will, you could go left or right...or up or down. But, you can't. The only choices are left, right, or sit there until you starve.

He doesn't need to be a puppeteer because he gave you the right answer and marked the path. Your free will only dictates how fast you walk.

 

[BryanW92]

God doesn't have to pull our strings to make use commit evil. He doesn't have to "make" a tornado because he made nature and physics, gave them a set of laws, and turned them loose.

But, our nature makes us commit evil. He didn't make a snake and then tell it to be a great dancer. A snake is a snake. A sinner is a sinner.

 

[twin1954]

Hi Inkfingers,

I am a Calvinist by belief and agreement with what the Scriptures reveal about election. Election is a fact, pure and simple. The doctrine of election is all throughout the Scriptures.

That being established... on the one hand, our days are numbered and our final destiny pre-determined. It is like we are on a cruise ship going to a certain port. The destiny has been chosen and pre-established.

But, although the cruise ship is heading toward its destination, while we are on the ship, we can still do what we want to do ON the cruise ship -- we can move the lounge chairs around, we can decide to eat or not, we can choose some activities over others. We can even sleep through the entire voyage.

God is sovereign without question. That is incontestable.

But, we are not puppets, with the "master puppeteer" pulling all our strings, determining and directing our every activity, action and choice.

If we go back to the Garden of Eden -- Adam and Eve had the free will to eat of the forbidden fruit of the Garden. God did not force them to disobey Him.

Granted, the serpent was in the Garden and God knew it. God knew that they would disobey Him. But, omniscience is not the same thing as puppeteering.

I think this is why Calvinists get a bad name. People -- especially those who hate the doctrine of election -- wickedly make God out to be a monster, claiming that He put some here only to destroy them. Well, it in truth, that is the sum of the doctrine of reprobation...but, God is a good God. Period.

One might argue: "But, God used Pharaoh to for His own purposes 'to get Himself glory' -- isn't that rank puppeteering?" Well, remember, that there were numerous times when Pharaoh hardened his own heart. God knew he would and God used it for His purposes. And, God can do as He sees fit; He is the Creator of all. "Cannot a potter decide what to do with the pot He is making?"

Adam and Eve most certainly had free will to choose to disobey God or to obey God. And, that was a test. Yes, God knew that they would choose to disobey. But, He did not make them disobey. They chose to believe the devil's lies -- "Oh, and did God REALLY say...?" They chose to doubt God. They chose to listen to and believe Satan over God. They chose to disobey God. It was their freewill choice.

But, NOTE that although God KNEW that they would disobey Him and that sin would enter the world -- from eternity past, He made a PROVISION for redemption and restoration. Puppeteering? No a Masterplan for the ages.

One can argue -- and, perhaps this is where you are coming from when you say that "there is no such thing as free will" -- that God is the originator of all causes and therefore we don't actually have free will as it is all pre-determined. Well, yes and no.

We need to remember that "God's ways and thoughts are above our own." And, although, we have been given "the mind of Christ" we still cannot get our finite minds around the infinite.

Election and free will are co-existent and reconcilable. But, if we try to reconcile them, we will break our heads! Why not just say, "Glory to God!!! His ways are past finding out!"

Going back to my original statement that "it is a test" -- I stand by that, but acknowledge that God knows how we are going to respond. He created us. And, He is in eternity and sees all at a glance.

One could argue about the Lucifer & the fallen angels. Didn't God create them perfect? He did. How was it that imperfection was found in Lucifer? Why did a perfect creature in his exalted position choose to exalt himself and cause a rebellion in Heaven? Answer: the angels also had free will.

I suppose one could argue that as originator of all causes, then God ordained that rebellion. Well, Inkfingers, my friend, that is putting evil on God. And, that is a place we don't want to go. God is a good God. Although by His allowing the free will of His creatures, sin entered into creation, God can never be charged with evil or sin. Period.

A W Tozer was no Calvinist. While "The Knowledge of the Holy" is a great read in many respects he compromises truth in order to make it more palatable to the rebel.

 

[Renee Arisen]

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[Inkfingers]

Adam and Eve had the free will to eat of the forbidden fruit of the Garden. God did not force them to disobey Him.

Hello back Renee

Are you certain of all of that. Nowhere does the Bible say we have free will, and no evidence can ever be brought forward to show that it exists.

Adam and Eve most certainly had free will to choose to disobey God or to obey God. And, that was a test. Yes, God knew that they would choose to disobey. But, He did not make them disobey. They chose to believe the devil's lies -- "Oh, and did God REALLY say...?" They chose to doubt God. They chose to listen to and believe Satan over God. They chose to disobey God. It was their freewill choice.

Got to disagree there Renee.

Neither Bible nor science nor reason gives any cause to believe in freewill. In fact there are numerous passages of the Bible that say there actually it is God choosing who does good and who does ill. And the whole universe is evidence that things happen through cause and effect, and not one jot of evidence from any source has ever been offered (or can ever be offered) to the contrary. So no, sorry, there is no freewill.

God knew that adam and eve would sin; not because of foreknowledge, but because He made them that way. The end was written from the very beginning; it wasn't waiting on the whim of man. God is not waiting on us - if he did, that would make us sovereign and not him.

One can argue -- and, perhaps this is where you are coming from when you say that "there is no such thing as free will" -- that God is the originator of all causes and therefore we don't actually have free will as it is all pre-determined.

That is my stance, yes.

I am a Calvinist because I both recognise that God exists and I recognise that determinism is absolutely true.

We need to remember that "God's ways and thoughts are above our own." And, although, we have been given "the mind of Christ" we still cannot get our finite minds around the infinite.

That's an appeal to magic wands and unicorns Renee. Saying that it exists but we can't know that it exists because its too much for us begs the question of how you know it exists then.

One could argue about the Lucifer & the fallen angels. Didn't God create them perfect? He did. How was it that imperfection was found in Lucifer? Why did a perfect creature in his exalted position choose to exalt himself and cause a rebellion in Heaven? Answer: the angels also had free will.

Freewll is actually just an ill-conceived notion of a finite mind. If you look at what it means (ie: the ability to "choose" utterly independently of all other influences in past or present) what it actually would be is utterly random. That's what randomness IS; an event that happens by itself, outside of cause and effect.

Nothing breaks cause and effect Renee. Nothing. The universe is based on it. Science rests on it. Reason is utterly dependent on it. And the universe would not exist without it (because it is fundamental to order, and thus to structure, and thus to existence itself).

 

[Renee Arisen]

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[BryanW92]

This analogy seemed to imply that I would always make the right decision. If only it were so!!! I have made enough very wrong choices that if it were not for the grace of God and Him holding me by His righteous right hand, I surely would be lost forever.

Sproul agrees with you. He accepts that our good decisions are driven by God, not as puppeteer but as the wise and insistent counsel. That doesn't mean that we still can't make bad decisions by ignoring him. But as people who habitually make bad decisions will tell you, the options keep getting narrower and narrower as you paint yourself into a corner until all that's left is a hand that is willing to pull you out.

Yes, I did get the Grudem book. Very informative! I'm a little behind on my "chapter a week" plan (since I have a lot of reading for school too), but I'm working on it.

 

[BryanW92]

But, God didn't make Lucifer a devil; and, He didn't make Adam and Eve sinners. They chose that path by free will.

I think that Adam and Eve in the garden are like locking a person in a room with a glass of water and saying, "Don't drink the water". Then, just leave them there until they drink it. They were given curiosity and a forbidden thing and an abundance of time. What could possibly go wrong with that?

Lucifer is a different story. As an angel, he was not made in the image of God. We can't understand his motivations or really know the extents of his authority before the fall.

 

[Renee Arisen]

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[Renee Arisen]

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[Renee Arisen]

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[BryanW92]

Hi again Bryan

Thanks for clarifying that for me. That makes perfect sense! And, it squares with reality.

On the Grudem book...I sort of had a wish plan to get through it...but, life happens. What I find most helpful is to pull it out when a theological question comes up...that way I am really invested and engaged. Frankly, some of the topics just are not in my radar right now...

I'm not reading it in order. I'm picking the theological issue that is on mind and reading that chapter for the week.