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The choice of Cain

BryanW92

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Thanks for clarifying that for me. That makes perfect sense! And, it squares with reality.

It squared with reality for me too. It goes along with the idea that trying to live a perfect Christian life isn't really something you do for God (since you can't add to or subtract from anything he did or what he is). But it is something you can do to make your own life better. The people over on the Arminian boards are so afraid of silly things like music, worship on Sunday, Halloween, etc because they can't understand this simple fact of God's sovereignty and the scope of his works in our lives.
 
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Don Maurer

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Renee, it does not seem like you should be posting as you do here. You are not even close to being a Calvinists. Is not this forum to for Calvinists to answer questions? Since your not a Calvinist, you should only be asking questions. In fact your not even Arminian.

At least in Arminianism, they usually recognize that the concept of original sin is Biblical. If I understand the post below, you see our free will as like unto Adam's free will in the Garden. How is the view copied below not crass pelagianism and a complete denial of original sin? Such a view is opposite Calvinism, worse than Arminianism, and even Roman Catholicism retains some sort of view of original sin. How is your view not simply crass Pelagianism?

Also, the concept of "decree" is absent. You make mention of election, but deny the essence of what that word means. You make election to be God looking into the future to see what is going to happen and choosing people on the basis of their merit in doing or believing what he wants. That is not biblical foreknowledge. In Biblical foreknowledge, God knew us with a loving foreknowledge. Because God lovingly foreknew us, he elected us. The bible never says God foreknew the non elect. There is a reason for that.

Renee, should you not take your opinions to the bottom forum in this section. It is for debating.


Hi Inkfingers,

I am a Calvinist by belief and agreement with what the Scriptures reveal about election. Election is a fact, pure and simple. The doctrine of election is all throughout the Scriptures.

That being established... on the one hand, our days are numbered and our final destiny pre-determined. It is like we are on a cruise ship going to a certain port. The destiny has been chosen and pre-established.

But, although the cruise ship is heading toward its destination, while we are on the ship, we can still do what we want to do ON the cruise ship -- we can move the lounge chairs around, we can decide to eat or not, we can choose some activities over others. We can even sleep through the entire voyage.

God is sovereign without question. That is incontestable.

But, we are not puppets, with the "master puppeteer" pulling all our strings, determining and directing our every activity, action and choice.

If we go back to the Garden of Eden -- Adam and Eve had the free will to eat of the forbidden fruit of the Garden. God did not force them to disobey Him.

Granted, the serpent was in the Garden and God knew it. God knew that they would disobey Him. But, omniscience is not the same thing as puppeteering.

I think this is why Calvinists get a bad name. People -- especially those who hate the doctrine of election -- wickedly make God out to be a monster, claiming that He put some here only to destroy them. Well, it in truth, that is the sum of the doctrine of reprobation...but, God is a good God. Period.

One might argue: "But, God used Pharaoh to for His own purposes 'to get Himself glory' -- isn't that rank puppeteering?" Well, remember, that there were numerous times when Pharaoh hardened his own heart. God knew he would and God used it for His purposes. And, God can do as He sees fit; He is the Creator of all. "Cannot a potter decide what to do with the pot He is making?"

Adam and Eve most certainly had free will to choose to disobey God or to obey God. And, that was a test. Yes, God knew that they would choose to disobey. But, He did not make them disobey. They chose to believe the devil's lies -- "Oh, and did God REALLY say...?" They chose to doubt God. They chose to listen to and believe Satan over God. They chose to disobey God. It was their freewill choice.

But, NOTE that although God KNEW that they would disobey Him and that sin would enter the world -- from eternity past, He made a PROVISION for redemption and restoration. Puppeteering? No a Masterplan for the ages.

One can argue -- and, perhaps this is where you are coming from when you say that "there is no such thing as free will" -- that God is the originator of all causes and therefore we don't actually have free will as it is all pre-determined. Well, yes and no.

We need to remember that "God's ways and thoughts are above our own." And, although, we have been given "the mind of Christ" we still cannot get our finite minds around the infinite.

Election and free will are co-existent and reconcilable. But, if we try to reconcile them, we will break our heads! Why not just say, "Glory to God!!! His ways are past finding out!"

Going back to my original statement that "it is a test" -- I stand by that, but acknowledge that God knows how we are going to respond. He created us. And, He is in eternity and sees all at a glance.

One could argue about the Lucifer & the fallen angels. Didn't God create them perfect? He did. How was it that imperfection was found in Lucifer? Why did a perfect creature in his exalted position choose to exalt himself and cause a rebellion in Heaven? Answer: the angels also had free will.

I suppose one could argue that as originator of all causes, then God ordained that rebellion. Well, Inkfingers, my friend, that is putting evil on God. And, that is a place we don't want to go. God is a good God. Although by His allowing the free will of His creatures, sin entered into creation, God can never be charged with evil or sin. Period.
 
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