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Occams Barber

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Indecent exposure/ lack of modesty...it seems people are becoming increasingly shameless these days.

I had half a thought about changes in clothing standards when I wrote the OP but I had trouble deciding where moral change fitted in. I think your word "modesty" is the key in the sense that immodesty was once considered morally wrong but is now more of a neutral (Who cares?) concept.

I'm adding 'Modesty' to the list - Thanks Rose.

Incidentally - I live in a warm climate in a beachside area (in Australia). At the supermarket it's quite normal to come across people of all ages and genders in various states of shoelessness and casual undress. Judgements about modesty or immodesty can sometimes be simply a matter of what you're used to. :)
OB
 
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Occams Barber

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I wonder whether the idea of environmental preservation/ecological concern as a moral imperative is a shift?

Thanks Paidiske
I see environmental issues as a tangle of scientific fact and moral concern. The scientific fact side is obvious. The moral side involves arguments about how and to what extent we should respond to the scientific fact.

I don't see environmental concerns as a shift in morality. What I do see is the environment becoming a moral issue where this wasn't previously the case. What I think we're seeing is not a change in moral philosophy, relevant to the environment, but a new moral issue.

Assuming the scientific facts, it's even debatable if the environment argument is moral or ideological (assuming it's possible to separate ideology from morality)
OB
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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I think the idea of Moral shift is more nuanced though. Sometimes there isn't a shift in principle, but only in application. It is the big difference in the West, that an absolute Moral Law that we imperfectly approach was the tradition view, which some have come to consider morality only a construct since the 19th century. There is thus a difference between Relativists and Moral absolutists (though the latter necessarily imperfectly applied). For the Relativists, moral change represent real change, as morality is itself merely an abstract construction.

So for instance, everyone agrees killing is wrong. How we excuse certain instances thereof is the question. To the absolutist moralist, that support capital punishment say, we need to argue that Justice as moral principle supercedes killing being wrong; or if supporting abortion, that the foetus does not yet constitute a person. For a relativist, killing is just societal, so we essentially argue something constitutes an immoral act of murder only if not acceptable to society. It is the difference between humans deciding what is moral ourselves by consensus vs discovering a greater underlying principle, be that Religious or not in origin. Another good example is slavery, where the Church has always considered it immoral in principle, though inevitable in practice initially due to its universality - it was seen as a symptom of the Fall. The moral shift from the Abolitionists was not the change in the principle, but in the application that the institution could be tolerated as such.
The moral relativists, like Hume or Voltaire, argued slavery justified on grounds of cultural superiority or such, or Communists on the grounds of Utilitarianism.

The same with modesty. Most agree that people should dress modestly, but disagree how this principle should act in practice - a modestly dressed Victorian and Modern are far apart, but both agree to the principle and aim thereof. This is in contrast to supporters of Burlesque or so, who feel that modesty isn't a worthwhile thing, argue it constraining, and then point to other principles like individual freedom to support their contention.

Sufficed to say, there are two camps - One where the application of Morality differs, but the underlying principles are quite stable and coherent throughout; the other where societal consensus determines 'morality', and where dramatic shifts can occur quite suddenly, and in direct opposition to previous ideas (noted example Feminism and Transgenderism, which are frankly supposed to be directly at odds, idealogically).
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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A change worth noting is Domination. It was thought laudable to dominate your peers by Pagans and in more Imperialist times. Nowadays, we are more in favour of considering 'team-building'. Competition as principle has perhaps fallen a bit by the wayside.
 
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Paidiske

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Mmm... I think you're oversimplifying there, Quid.

Take the notion of different camps, or schools of thought. We could identify different schools of ethical thought - for example, virtue ethics, deontological ethics, and so on - going back millennia, each with significant diversity and development in their principles and application.

Trying to say that there's folks who are morally stable and coherent, and folks who just follow the crowd, and that sums up the ethical landscape, seems to me to be doing a gross injustice to a large portion of ethical thinkers.
 
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Occams Barber

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Yes, but if it's a new moral issue, then isn't it an example that should be on your list?
No.

What I'm looking for are moral shifts in Western (nominally Christian) society. Ideally this would be where something considered morally wrong became morally OK (or vice versa). If you go to the second para in the OP you'll see the more nuanced version of this.

I'm also asking for posters to suggest any common factors which might help to explain why (a single, a group or all) moral tenets shifted.

Separately (and secretly ;)) I'm putting all this info into a spreadsheet and running it through multiple correlation equations.

OB
 
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Paidiske

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It might just be that it's Friday afternoon, but I feel like I'm not following, OB.

If something that was considered okay is no longer (eg: exploitation of the environment leading to extinction, desertification, etc), how is that not an example of the sort of shift you're talking about?
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Mmm... I think you're oversimplifying there, Quid.

Take the notion of different camps, or schools of thought. We could identify different schools of ethical thought - for example, virtue ethics, deontological ethics, and so on - going back millennia, each with significant diversity and development in their principles and application.

Trying to say that there's folks who are morally stable and coherent, and folks who just follow the crowd, and that sums up the ethical landscape, seems to me to be doing a gross injustice to a large portion of ethical thinkers.
I am saying there are those who consider Morality a true value, and those that consider it a created one. Any school of thought can ultimately be reduced to one or the other. Within those though, you'll find much variation between considering it possible to determine the moral path, and those that consider it more consensus driven, too. So deontologic ethics falls more toward seeing a true value, but even then, you can always place it in an epistemologic framework that denies the veridicality being established, while Virtue Ethics can run the error of the Ubermensch or the culturally relative. Introducing different schools of Moral philosophy doesn't change the dichotomy between if you see it as an imperfectly reified Absolute, or a societal or philosophic construction.

There are those with stable Moral principles, and those that hold to Absolute values are remarkably similar across cultures, no matter if there is some differentiation - for no one thinks we are perfectly applying Moral principles, no matter which school or tradition you belong to. Relativists however, can do volte-face with rapidity, as history shows. It is not a simplification to say that either it is a 'Real' principle, or it is only as real as we accept it to be.
 
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Paidiske

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I am saying there are those who consider Morality a true value, and those that consider it a created one.

I'm no philosophy expert, but this sounds like a platonic argument. I don't think I'd agree with the underlying presuppositions (ie. that there is an ideal moral system "out there" which all humans apprehend to a greater or lesser extent).

I think we do construct our moral systems, but that doesn't mean they're not true or stable or coherent. You're sounding very dismissive of any point of view which doesn't buy into the platonic kind of construction you prefer, though.
 
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Philip_B

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I wonder if part of this isn't a reflection of the changes in the predominant philosophical climate. Historically we were an historical tradition, where the matter of truth and good were clearly defined and passed from one generation to another, and these were essentially absolute values. With the rise of existentialism, much of this has to be the result of the perceived experience of the individual. I know my children will say 'don't tell me, I need to make my own mistakes'. Coupled with that is the advent of Pragmatism as a philosophical school, where the matters are not absolute, but simply a matter of the best possible explanation or course of action on the current available information, allowing for the possibility that a better solution or explanation will arise later.

So when it comes to Climate Change, for example, some will say that based on all we know at the moment it is real and we need to do something about it now, whilst others argue that it is not an absolute truth, and so no action is required.

I was reflecting on the idea that the traditional Christian position is to suggest that there are absolutes, but then Paul stepped up to the plate with 'now we see in a glass darkly, but then face to face' suggesting he may have been ahead of the game when it came to pragmatism.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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I'm no philosophy expert, but this sounds like a platonic argument. I don't think I'd agree with the underlying presuppositions (ie. that there is an ideal moral system "out there" which all humans apprehend to a greater or lesser extent).

I think we do construct our moral systems, but that doesn't mean they're not true or stable or coherent. You're sounding very dismissive of any point of view which doesn't buy into the platonic kind of construction you prefer, though.
No, that was your Strawman of me. A moral system not built on accepting that a true value exists may remain very stable - good example being Communism, based on a perceived dialectic. But ultimately, it is more amenable to rapid change once its axioms are questioned, or taken to extremes (so that a philosophy about doing the 'greatest good' ends up committing Genocides in the name of their ultimate goal).

Besides, I don't necessarily mean a Platonic construction, though that is an example thereof. For instance, someone who assumes an Evolutionary origin for certain principles that maximise Group Selection, would be a non-Platonic, but Absolutist, perspective on what constitutes human moral principles.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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I'm still not really convinced about your "two camps," but I'm not really sure what you're arguing for any more, so will let it drop.
Simple. Either something IS moral or immoral definitely (though I may be excusing it, or arguing if it is or not, or trying to explain it); or it must be argued to be so within a framework of understanding, and shorn of that framework, I could not say it is. This introduces the extra layer to Moral Shift which was my original point - whether the Shift is a real one, or a perceived or pragmatic or in practice one.
 
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Paidiske

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Simple. Either something IS moral or immoral definitely (though I may be excusing it, or arguing if it is or not); or it must be argued to be so within a framework of understanding, and shorn of that framework, I could not say it is. This introduces the extra layer to Moral Shift which was my original point - whether the Shift is a real one, or a perceived or pragmatic or in practice one.

I'd still have to disagree. Even if there were such definite absolutes, humans cannot know them perfectly (as demonstrated by our abject failure to do so). So I'd argue that every shift is a shift in perception or pragmatism or practice.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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I'd still have to disagree. Even if there were such definite absolutes, humans cannot know them perfectly (as demonstrated by our abject failure to do so). So I'd argue that every shift is a shift in perception or pragmatism or practice.
Exactly, but it doesn't mean the Moral Principle necessarily changed. I gave examples above, like Slavery and the Church for instance. Paul already said Onesimus was to be treated as a brother, and Augustine called it a symptom of the Fall - but though Christianity ultimately ended slavery, it tolerated it for a long time, and some Popes and Bishops even held slaves. The Moral Principle that Slavery was an evil was fairly established, though it was justified in practice, by even the great and good, on occasion. No real moral shift occured, just the application and acceptability of tolerating it.

So there is a shift in moral practice, which the one camp sees as a 'change' in Morality, and the other as understanding or application or toleration of necessary evils or such. Now if you accept absolute Morality, then a change to your perceived Moral Principles is a far greater, more earth-shattering, change than merely application. So while Moral change would be seen as the same regardless for one group, the other adds a significant layer of nuance, between Principle and Practice. I don't really know if I can explain it any better.
 
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Paidiske

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But isn't the shift in practice also due to a shift in perception? Perception of gravity or acceptability of something? Isn't that a real shift? I'd imagine the slaves would argue that it's real enough, since it's the difference between their liberation, or not.

I think actions matter a heck of a lot more here than people's perceptions of the absolute nature of their unacted-on convictions.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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So a good example of a Principle Shift, would be Aristocracy vs Democracy. To mediaevals, the feudal nature of reality was written into it, from God down to the peasant. The Honestiores and Humiliores. The Moral change here was that the structure inherently in place, so that an uppity peasant or slave was acting contrary to morality or nature, was replaced with a levelling - and that these were merely incidental, not referents of true disposition. This is a far more fundamental shift than merely free to slave, which was just the turn of Fortune's wheel.
 
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Paidiske

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Again, I think that's over-simplified. Even when people believed in God-given social hierarchy, they had ethical principles which ascribed genuine value to each person (I remember being shocked on reading some stuff from this era which praised condescension as a virtue; because it's point was that being willing to put yourself at the level of someone "lower" than you, and thus not treating them as inferior, was an expression of genuine virtue etc etc).

On the other hand, even in democracy where everyone is, theoretically, equal, we find plenty of ways to structure society such that this equality is a complete fiction. And plenty of people willing to defend those structures as God's will as well.

I think what shifted was the way different principles - already both live within ethical thought - were applied and emphasised within the socio-political realm.
 
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