The challenge for Theistic Evolutionists

[USincognito]

You have all missed my point. I'm asking how theistic eevolution folk can be more loving towards creationists and respect the end goal, which is faith in Christ, not winning this debate.

I'm an atheist, but I'm a participant in a Facebook group that does good job. It's called Celebrating Creation by Natural Selection (the name has, ironically evolved) and the basic rule is - Be respectful. You can disagree with someone, but don't be nasty and don't attack positions or people, address them. There is debate, and sometimes tempers flare, but for the most part members there keep the exchange friendly and the rancor to a minimum. Theology can be debated, but it's not a place apologetical battles.

Anyway, that disjointed paragraph is meant to convey that if you adopt some of the rules of that group as your strategy for interacting with Creationists, you should be able to continue to have the discussion without diminishing fellowshipping opportunities.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/celebrate.evolving.creation/

1.)Please be respectful to the other members of the group and even to those outside of the group. In fact, let's be extra-careful to show respect to those with whom we disagree.

2.) Let’s avoid statements like "You are not a Christian if you believe that" or "You people (Atheist, Christian, Jew, Muslim, Young Earther, Evolutionary Creationist, whatever) are evil or stupid." If someone appears uninformed, try supplying them some information or ideas. They are more likely to consider your submission if they aren't told they are ignorant. I think we can disagree strongly and state why without questioning a person's worth.

3.) Reason can be valuable and I believe we should use our noodles. Let's not use the argument that attempting to think ideas through is wrong.

4.) Arguments that non-testable ideas (such as God, Love, etc.) are without value can be interesting. However, there are other forums for those discussions, and those types of reductionist statements tend to become confrontational and unproductive. Let's avoid that type of argument. In this group a person’s faith, theology and personal/spiritual experiences are also valuable. We do not attack religion.​

I've found this group to be the antitoxin for the venom that pervades far to many venues of the Creationism and Evolution debate.

 

[Sayre]

You know, I've been focusing on your first struggle; I thought it was time to say something about the second.

if you're talking about their faith in Christ, then I would respectively suggest that there's no way you could damage that.

If you're talking about faith in something else -- maybe something they hold in the same regard or have associated with Christ that perhaps they shouldn't -- then I think you have an obligation to damage it whenever and however possible. Separate the grain form the chaff, as it were.

Some Christians like to say that anyone who deconverts was never really a "Christian" in the first place -- there is some truth to that, but not in the way they expect:

Contrary to what they say, nobody turns away from Christianity because of evolution -- they turn away because they've been lied to (either unintentionally or... not) by those whom they trusted about what Christianity was about in the first place.

If they were taught, "to be a Christian, you MUST accept X, Y, and Z, as the Truth," and then later find out that X, Y, or Z doesn't sync up with reality, then of course they're going to reject it. The truth is that Christianity is ridiculously simple -- believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God who died for your sins. Period. Full Stop. If X,Y,and Z aren't about that, then what they've been taught isn't about Christianity.

Evolution, like many of the scientific discoveries before it, is simply the latest thing that exposes the Xs,Ys, and Zs for what they are -- unnecessary frou-frou and window dressing at best, a stumbling block for honest seekers at worst.

Get rid of it -- go back to basics. John Shelby Spong said it best: "Any god who can be killed ought to be killed -- and any god who must be protected from truth, form any source, is dead already."

Does a Christian need a young Earth to believe in Christ? Do they need a literal six-day creation or a global flood to think they're saved? Do they need you to think so, too?

If yes, why?

If no, then what are they fighting for? They're just... fighting.

Hmm good point. While I can separate the issues I don't think some other theists are properly equipped to do so. Much of the Western church is stuck in a anti intellectualism and in fact praises fideism. I have no idea how to even begin addressing this issue.

I agree with you that the x y z's ought to be killed off, I just think they are so erroneously paired with essentials like faith in a resurrection that my efforts would do more harm than good.

 

[USincognito]

It is more important to understand someone you disagree with than love them. Indiscriminately trying to love everyone sounds very noble, but is a fatuous exercise. Trying to understand them will give you a better idea of what is motivating their views and actions, and might lead you to sympathise with them or even empathise with them. And that might help with any bad feelings you have towards them. Or it might not. It depends what you uncover. But I'd say understanding is the most constructive thing to try and do.

I think she's talking about agape love rather than the love you have for family members or friends (philia).

 

[USincognito]

Why...? Why would it be the "last" thing you'd want to do...?

I would have thought that the last thing you'd want to do would be to promote superstition and mistruth......?

Wrong subform.

 

[Sayre]

I'm an atheist, but I'm a participant in a Facebook group that does good job. It's called Celebrating Creation by Natural Selection (the name has, ironically evolved) and the basic rule is - Be respectful. You can disagree with someone, but don't be nasty and don't attack positions or people, address them. There is debate, and sometimes tempers flare, but for the most part members there keep the exchange friendly and the rancor to a minimum. Theology can be debated, but it's not a place apologetical battles.

Anyway, that disjointed paragraph is meant to convey that if you adopt some of the rules of that group as your strategy for interacting with Creationists, you should be able to continue to have the discussion without diminishing fellowshipping opportunities.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/celebrate.evolving.creation/

1.)Please be respectful to the other members of the group and even to those outside of the group. In fact, let's be extra-careful to show respect to those with whom we disagree.

2.) Let’s avoid statements like "You are not a Christian if you believe that" or "You people (Atheist, Christian, Jew, Muslim, Young Earther, Evolutionary Creationist, whatever) are evil or stupid." If someone appears uninformed, try supplying them some information or ideas. They are more likely to consider your submission if they aren't told they are ignorant. I think we can disagree strongly and state why without questioning a person's worth.

3.) Reason can be valuable and I believe we should use our noodles. Let's not use the argument that attempting to think ideas through is wrong.

4.) Arguments that non-testable ideas (such as God, Love, etc.) are without value can be interesting. However, there are other forums for those discussions, and those types of reductionist statements tend to become confrontational and unproductive. Let's avoid that type of argument. In this group a person’s faith, theology and personal/spiritual experiences are also valuable. We do not attack religion.​

I've found this group to be the antitoxin for the venom that pervades far to many venues of the Creationism and Evolution debate.

Thanks. .. That gives me some hope. I'll check it out.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

I think she's talking about agape love rather than the love you have for family members or friends (philia).

Interesting. I've not heard the term agape love before. A quick google of the term has sort of enlightened me a little as to its meaning, but I find myself quibbling with it as a term as it seems to better defined as simple humanitarianism, which is a concern for fellow humans welfare, and something that I take for granted as normal for a well adjusted adult. Strangely it is the lack of this quality that I find annoying in some creationists, but that's another story. Maybe I've misunderstood the term, but I don't see anything special there that is challenged by hardcore creationists believing nonsense, being deceitful and lying for jesus. What they believe or do seems sort of irrelevant.

 

[Sayre]

USincognito that link seems broken for me.

 

[Strathos]

I am a theistic evolutionist.

My two greatest struggles in faith are loving creationists, and not damaging the faith of creationists.

I half wonder why I bother trying to correct them. Evolution IS a fact of the matter, but sometimes I feel like, if I were to prove that to them, it would damage their faith. My mother is all or nothing - either there is a literal 6 day creation and a literal world wide flood, or there is no God. I would win the battle but lose the war if I were to prove evolution to her. Surely the end goal in all this is to encourage others to have faith, and for that faith to remain strong?

So the question for other Theistic Evolutionists is - why do we bother? Why don't we just let the creationists believe in 6 day creation and be done with it?

And how on earth are we supposed to LOVE them when, from my point of view, they are so dogmatic and deceptive in their arguments?

I think to truly reflect Christ, we ought to spend more time loving those we disagree with. If anyone has any suggestions on how to do this, I am all ears.

Good question. From my perspective, creationists (or at least a very large subset of creationists) do more to drive other people away from Christ than bring them to Him. If you look at the testimonies of a lot of people who deconverted, their stories often have the common thread of "All of the science denial I was taught by my parents/pastors was wrong" and then they jump to the conclusion that the faith itself must be wrong, because certain people inextricably link it with those things. In addition, it perpetuates a stereotype of Christians as ignorant, uneducated science deniers. In some places if you tell someone you're a Christian, they'll say something like "Oh, so you believe the earth is 6000 years old and fossils were planted by Satan?" or something. Creationism as a movement, especially YEC, has done a lot more to damage Christianity than scientists could ever do.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Have you read a book called "the skeptical believer"? It talks briefly about how humans learn best and it seems that is through stories. Very interesting. Based in psychology but I don't have it on me to quote ut.

Hadn't heard of that one; who's the author?

I would also recommend Jesus for the Non-Religious by John Shelby Spong.

It's amazing that a thread started by a Te wanting to love those who put the mental back into fundamental, is receiving such little love from them. Irony, right?

No, irony is the opposite of what is expected. This, sadly, we all saw coming.

Love your enemies.

Don't call them your enemies -- if you do, you're being as divisive as they are.

 

[Aman777]

Originally Posted by Aman777

Dear Valentine, Thanks, but you don't realize the difference in Bible believing Christians and Theistic Evols who change God's Holy Word into Myth, Allegory, and Fiction, thus allowing their agreement with the Lies of the ToE which is being forced upon our innocent children in the Publc Schools of America.
​

Sounds like you've got a serious issue with Theistic Evolutionists. I'm sorry to hear that.

Sounds also like you don't think God's Truth can be shared through myth, allegory, or fiction. I'm especially sorry to hear that -- those are great literary tools that are very effective at presenting deeper truths to their readers.

Dear Valentine, God's Truth can be shared through those ways but TEs have rejected God's Literal Truth because it doesn't fit the Evol Religion. IOW, Some have completely changed the message of Special Creation into a Lie about How we evolved from Apes.

(on a side note, do you know that there are some people out there who are so caught up in literalism that they think that even Jesus' parables were actual historical events that He personally witnessed happening? Kooky, right?)

Right.

Sure we all have faults, but one of them doesn't have to be changing what is actually written into Fables. See if you can find a TE who is also a Literal believer in God's Holy Word? We love our brethren in Christ but look suspiciously upon those who reject God's Truth in favor of man's False Theories which agree with Satan but not with God. God Bless you.

And here I thought that the only piece of God's Truth that ultimately mattered was who Jesus was and what He died for. If you want to tack more on to that, that's your business, and neither I nor (I suspect) Sayre will stop you.

You only told us a partial Gospel. Jesus died for our sins, was buried and arose the 3rd day ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES. These are the SAME literal Scriptures which Theistic Evols deny, in favor of the Lies of the ToE. Ask them if they believe in Jesus according to the Scriptures?

After all, Sayre will still love you as a fellow Christian no matter what else you think is important to salvation, and as for myself, well... who am I to try and strip away what makes you entertaining?

Is he a Bible believing Christian or is he a worshipper of the Biggest Satanic Lie ever told, the ToE? That is the question. God Bless you.

In Love,
Aman
​

 

[Aman777]

TLKValentine:>>If they were taught, "to be a Christian, you MUST accept X, Y, and Z, as the Truth," and then later find out that X, Y, or Z doesn't sync up with reality, then of course they're going to reject it. The truth is that Christianity is ridiculously simple -- believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God who died for your sins. Period. Full Stop. If X,Y,and Z aren't about that, then what they've been taught isn't about Christianity.

I agree with you that the x y z's ought to be killed off, I just think they are so erroneously paired with essentials like faith in a resurrection that my efforts would do more harm than good.

Dear Syre, You don't believe in the resurrection? Also, Valentine is not correcty telling us the complete Gospel, which is according to the Scriptures. Do you believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ according to the Scriptures?

In Love,
Aman

 

[Sayre]

TLKValentine:>>If they were taught, "to be a Christian, you MUST accept X, Y, and Z, as the Truth," and then later find out that X, Y, or Z doesn't sync up with reality, then of course they're going to reject it. The truth is that Christianity is ridiculously simple -- believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God who died for your sins. Period. Full Stop. If X,Y,and Z aren't about that, then what they've been taught isn't about Christianity.



Dear Syre, You don't believe in the resurrection? Also, Valentine is not correcty telling us the complete Gospel, which is according to the Scriptures. Do you believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ according to the Scriptures?

In Love,
Aman

I believe in the resurrection.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Dear Valentine, God's Truth can be shared through those ways but TEs have rejected God's Literal Truth because it doesn't fit the Evol Religion. IOW, Some have completely changed the message of Special Creation into a Lie about How we evolved from Apes.

Seems to me like they've rejected your opinion that it's God's Literal Truth -- and who are you that they should value your opinion so highly?

Right.

Indeed -- so we agree that God's Truth need not be literal in order to be Truth -- you'd be surprised how many of your fellow Christians can't even get over that particular stumbling block.

You only told us a partial Gospel. Jesus died for our sins, was buried and arose the 3rd day ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES.

If the scriptures hadn't said it, would it be any less true?

These are the SAME literal Scriptures which Theistic Evols deny, in favor of the Lies of the ToE.

Actually, no -- they're quite different Scriptures -- OT vs NT, and all that. 66 books written by people from all walks of life over a period of 1500 tumultuous years are anything but the SAME.

Ask them if they believe in Jesus according to the Scriptures?

I'd rather ask them if they believe in Jesus according to the inspiration of the Holy Spirit -- that's all that really matters.

Is he a Bible believing Christian or is he a worshipper of the Biggest Satanic Lie ever told, the ToE? That is the question.

Nope, the question is: why can't he believe in Jesus and in evolution?

And the bigger question is: why are you so willing to cast him out?

 

[TLK Valentine]

I believe in the resurrection.

And now Aman will ask you questions about a bunch of other, unrelated matters in order to try to tarnish your claims of Christianity and label you an inferior.

I know it makes him difficult to love at times, but Jesus did warn that the path would not be easy.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

I'm guessing that Sayre is struggling to love Aman777, but apparently all that is necessary is to be willing to go out of your way to ensure his wellbeing. Emotion needn't come into it. Think of him as a field trial.

 

[Sayre]

Seems to me like they've rejected your opinion that it's God's Literal Truth -- and who are you that they should value your opinion so highly?



Indeed -- so we agree that God's Truth need not be literal in order to be Truth -- you'd be surprised how many of your fellow Christians can't even get over that particular stumbling block.



If the scriptures hadn't said it, would it be any less true?



Actually, no -- they're quite different Scriptures -- OT vs NT, and all that. 66 books written by people from all walks of life over a period of 1500 tumultuous years are anything but the SAME.



I'd rather ask them if they believe in Jesus according to the inspiration of the Holy Spirit -- that's all that really matters.




Nope, the question is: why can't he believe in Jesus and in evolution?

And the bigger question is: why are you so willing to cast him out?

Holy bovines batman!

I don't think the Bible is God's Truth. I think it is a human document that describes how people believe they have experienced Him in the past.

Even the Bible says that the Holy spirit is our teacher. So do I believe the bible? If it agrees with the witness of the Holy spirit then yes.

 

[biggles53]

Holy bovines batman!

I don't think the Bible is God's Truth. I think it is a human document that describes how people believe they have experienced Him in the past.

Even the Bible says that the Holy spirit is our teacher. So do I believe the bible? If it agrees with the witness of the Holy spirit then yes.

Pretty disingenuous mate....

Do you honestly think you would have arrived at that "witness of the Holy Spirit" without the prompting provided by your particular holy book...?

Why do Muslims lay claim to an entirely different "witness"...?

 

[Sayre]

Pretty disingenuous mate....

Do you honestly think you would have arrived at that "witness of the Holy Spirit" without the prompting provided by your particular holy book...?

Why do Muslims lay claim to an entirely different "witness"...?

Im not intentionally disingenuous. I read the bible a lot and in my 20s had an experience I recognized as the holy spirit as defined in the bible.

 

[biggles53]

Im not intentionally disingenuous. I read the bible a lot and in my 20s had an experience I recognized as the holy spirit as defined in the bible.

And many a Muslim would recount similar experiences that they recognise as the presence of Allah as defined in the Qu'ran....so what...?

All that this demonstrates is that people can be influenced by the culture in which they are raised, including the reliance on particular holy stories...

 

[TLK Valentine]

And many a Muslim would recount similar experiences that they recognise as the presence of Allah as defined in the Qu'ran....so what...?

"so what," indeed -- the advantage of relying on revelation as opposed to the book is that only the books are mutually exclusive. Once we take the books out of the equation, who's to say that both revelations cannot be true?

All that this demonstrates is that people can be influenced by the culture in which they are raised, including the reliance on particular holy stories...

Which is all the more reason to not worship the stories as gods.