Holo: "The law has NO place in my life."
Don't need to tell me, I already know this. LOL
Holo: "The Spirit of God keeps me "in line." The law was never given to keep anyone in line anyway, it was given to make sin exceedingly sinful. The law isn't the power AGAINST sin, it's the power OF sin."
Wrong, the knowledge of the law brings about the knowledge of sin. That's why it was given, so that man could know he was sinful.
I see it in a broader perspective - it was given to prove once and for all that the road to God doesn't go by works. Sin has alway taken advantage of the commandment. Yes, it brings about knowledge of sin, or more specifically, of right and wrong - a knowledge God didn't intend for us to have. He wanted us to stay focused on HIM. The law makes you focus on yourself.
If we don't have a standard to judge ourselves by, we can not know if we have sinned.
Sure we can, we have the Spirit. And people knew even before the law came, too.
That's why the law is considered a schoolmaster. It was never intended to bring about salvation, that's true, it was intended to show people thier need for a savior. That's one of those Old Testament things that points to Christ.
There we agree, I think.
Holo: "In that case, I would follow his rules for me, not the law given to Israel."
So God changes then? He had one set of rules for the Israelites and one set for you.
Yes, the law was given to Israel and to Israel only.
So what are his rules for you? Where did you find them?
He is in me and I am in him. I don't live according to rules, I just live. Christ IS my life.
Holo: All God's children are good."
Scripture is clear, no one is good.
Righteous people aren't evil though. Righteous people are good people. We have been made righteous.
But since we have all sinned, we are not good.
We have all sinned, and we have all been crucified with Christ.
Holo: "It played no role in mine."
Then you have a problem on your hands.
What is that problem?
Holo: "I came to Christ because I was basically a helpless mess of a man. He gave me rest. The law had nothing to do with it, and it still has nothing to do with it."
So you came to Christ because of a feeling of helplessness and not because you were seeking forgiveness of your sins.
Not so much a feeling as a
fact... I was addicted to drugs, for one thing. I was full of hate and bitterness, I had anxiety to the point where I couldn't even stand up straight. Etc etc. Not to mention all the guilt I was carrying with me. That didn't help...
Well you coudln't have been seeking forgiveness of your sins, because you had no knowledge that you were a sinner because you did not know the law and still do not.
Of course I had knowledge of my sin. Everybody who lived prior to the law had knowledge of their sin.
Holo: "Because Jesus offers more than just forgiveness. He offers transformation, he offers to let you die and be born again as a new creation, he offers rest, healing, etc etc."
Without forgiveness of sin, none of that is possible.
True. He did away with our sin, he let our old man DIE, so that he may create a new man, a righteous man, a blameless man.
And since you did not come to Jesus as a broken sinner in repentance, I don't know how you have assurance of any of the things you're talking about here. But hey, that's between you and God.
I have assurance all right
His Spirit and mine testify together, to say it in a biblical/christianese way.
Holo: "Where did you get that idea?"
Well think about it. Why would anyone who is not a sinner, this knowledge is brought about by the law, by comparing yourself to the law, why would anyone come to Jesus?
The gospels are full of people who came to Jesus for all kinds of reasons. Mercy was one of them.
People don't understand why they need a savior until they understand they have sinned, and the only way they can understand that is by knowing which laws they have broken.
That's a tactic that will work on some people, but not on all. And if you're a good speaker, you can instill guilt in anyone, even in christians.
Yes and who were the ones that Jesus wanted as followers? The ones who came to Him for what they could get for themselves or the ones who were ready to give up everything they had and follow Him?
Jesus wants all of us. When he picked them out personally he seemed to go for the scruffians. He is near to ANYONE who calls on his name. He doesn't run you through a boot camp first to see if you're worthy. In fact, he does the exact opposite - he picks out (and up!) those who are nothing. Tax collectors, harlots, fishermen, even a pharisee or two.
Holo: "What do you mean? Since I don't live in shame and guilt?"
No, since you deny the very tool that brings people to knowledge of their sin.
I don't deny it, I'm just saying that it didn't have that effect on me. It's the Spirit, not the law, that convicts people of sin. And that's a different kind of conviction than making people feel guilty by listing ten commandments which were never given to gentiles in the first place, and which nobody will be judged by anyhow.
You make it sound like there's two revelations of God in the Bible. There is only one. It's a progressive revelation from Genesis to Revelation. God is the same in the NT as He is in the Old. He doesn't change.
No, but he IS doing something NEW.
What does the Spirit use to convict you of your sin? How do you know that you are a sinner? How is this knowledge revealed to you?
For example, when I decided to have a beer in front of my mum. There's nothing wrong with drinking beer, and my conscience is 100% clear about it, but I got this... conviction that I shouldn't do it in front of my mum, because of her "weak faith". It would've been sin for me to do so. It was neither the law nor my conscience that told me not to, but the Spirit.
And how I know I'm a sinner? I don't. I'm not a sinner, I'm a saint. If someone is accusing you and making you believe you're a sinner, that's NOT God. That's the devil. He is the accuser.
Holo: "Well, why does living under the law appeal to you?"
I live to please God.
You should stop that. Seriously. Jesus didn't live to please God. Jesus just looked at God and did like his Father. He even said he could do nothing in his own power.
Man cannot please God. Man wasn't created to please God. That is, God created man, put him in a garden, gave him EVERYTHING, and he saw that it was GOOD. You don't have kids in order to have them please you.
When I applied the law to myself I knew I was a sinner and reading the Bible told me that I could not save myself. So I needed Jesus.
Good! The ministry of death allowed you to give up and die and let God take over
So that other people will see my transformation and perhaps come talk to me about why I am the way I am. What happened that made me this way.
I've also had people ask me that - "what's with this peace you seem to have?" and such. But for my part, it has nothing to do with the law. People don't ask me that because I keep some law, but because they see the fruits of the Spirit.
Holo: "Anyway it's not about what appeals to me, it's about the fact that I am not under the law. If I was ever under it, I would surely be dead to it now."
Sure it is, you don't like the law.
The law is good, the commandments are good. But it's true that I don't like the law. The law is the ministry of death. It's a lousy husband compared to Jesus.
Therefore you ignore it and it's power to bring about your knowledge of sin.
I have the Spirit to bring about all the knowledge of sin I'll ever need.
Without the law, there is no reason for anyone to come to Christ because they are not aware of their need for a savior.
Jesus is more than a mercy-dispenser.
Holo: "No, I don't. Do you? Give me an example? What is it about living a right life that you don't know, that you need the law to tell you?"
How do you know what is right and wrong?
By training up my senses with use, and by the indwelling of the Spirit.
From the law. From the 10 Commandments. God has also written this knowledge on your heart. It's called your conscience. Conscience means with knowledge. Con means with, and science means knowledge. It is with knowledge that you know lying is wrong. It is with knowledge that you know stealing and murder is wrong. It is with knowledge that you know adultery is wrong. God wrote that knowledge upon your heart so that you would know when you were doing the wrong things. Isn't it funny how all of the acts that make us feel guilty when we do them are acts that are violations of the 10 Commandments?
Conscience is highly unreliable. It's twistable, searable. A muslim will feel guilty for not going to the mosque, but that has nothing to do with what God put in his heart by nature.
But yes, the gentiles have the "demands of the law" written in their hearts. I believe that refers to the sense of morality that we're born with. Now, when Paul talks about being released from the law, I believe that means that the jew is released from the mosaic law, but we gentiles, who were never under that law, are released from the "law" of our conscience - there IS no condemnation for us, so even if we should condemn ourselves, He is greater than that (these are unfinished thoughts on my part).
Yeah I know you do. Murder doesn't have to be the act of taking a human life. It is also the act of saying mean and hateful things to another person. Adultery doesn't always have to be sleeping with a married person or sex outsdie of marriage. Jesus said in Matthew 5:27-28 that any man that looks upon a woman with lust in his heart is guity of adultery. It's our thoughts that God looks at as well, not just our actions.
Assuming you're riht, what does this have to do with me and the law?
